[Adnan]

You replied to the post saying the buck stops with Mourinho . I was talking about Jones, Blind and Tuanzebe as well because that’s who the original poster pointed to in his post. Jesus you’re not even reading properly .

I read what you wrote, 'none of them are good enough' you wrote. I'm born and bred in England and can read thanks. Try giving some context next time if that's not too difficult for you.

Tuanzebe is more than good enough to play in our current team but sadly the Dinosaur in charge of the team prefers someone inferior.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

I read what you wrote, 'none of them are good enough' you wrote. I'm born and bred in England and can read thanks. Try giving some context next time if that's not too difficult for you.

Tuanzebe is more than good enough to play in our current team but sadly the Dinosaur in charge of the team prefers someone inferior.

A defender on a midtable championship team is now more than good enough to play for us?

This level of delusion is beyond comprehension and should not be humanly possible.

 

[Canagel]

A defender on a midtable championship team is now more than good enough to play for us?

This level of delusion is beyond comprehension and should not be humanly possible.

Why not? He's our player that we sent on loan you know. Not some random player in the championship. And he's showing his quality over there the aston villa fans only have good things to say.
A different manager would've given him his chance alreAdy. he's more than ready to play for United. But seems like we're OK to use Herrera and McTominay as makeshift centre backs .

 

[haram]

I read what you wrote, 'none of them are good enough' you wrote.

Yes, in regards to the CB's mentioned .

 

[Adnan]

Yes, in regards to the CB's mentioned .

Tuanzebe isn't good enough..

Are you Mourinho's son?

 

[Adnan]

A defender on a midtable championship team is now more than good enough to play for us?

This level of delusion is beyond comprehension and should not be humanly possible.

Did you watch him play in our first team when he was given a opportunity? Or are you gonna carry on spouting crap?

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Why not? He's our player that we sent on loan you know. Not some random player in the championship. And he's showing his quality over there the aston villa fans only have good things to say.
A different manager would've given him his chance alreAdy. he's more than ready to play for United. But seems like we're OK to use Herrera and McTominay as makeshift centre backs .

He is back on loan in the championship cos he couldn't secure a loan to a better team.

He is showing potential and making use of his playing time, but he is not at the level to play for us. What he needs is consistent playing time and hopefully he develops enough to secure a loan to a top flight team (hopefully in serie A) next season and continue his development.

The notion that he is currently good enough to play for is simply arrant nonsense. He is not and anyone that thinks he is, is deluded imo.

 

[Adnan]

He is back on loan in the championship cos he couldn't secure a loan to a better team.

He is showing potential and making use of his playing time, but he is not at the level to play for us. What he needs is consistent playing time and hopefully he develops enough to secure a loan to a top flight team (hopefully in serie A) next season and continue his development.

The notion that he is currently good enough to play for is simply arrant nonsense. He is not and anyone that thinks he is, is deluded imo.

He is on loan in the championship because our manager is Mourinho. Rashford would also be on loan if LVG hadn't given him a chance imo.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Did you watch him play in our first team when he was given a opportunity? Or are you gonna carry on spouting crap?

I have seen him play for us and villa.

To you, manager who started teenage varane ahead of pepe is now clueless about CBs.

if Tuanzebe is so good, why is he back on loan with a championship team?

 

[cheeky_backheel]

He is on loan in the championship because our manager is Mourinho. Rashford would also be on loan if LVG hadn't given him a chance imo.

why is tuanzebe on loan in the championship?

 

[Adnan]

I have seen him play for us and villa.

To you, manager who started teenage varane ahead of pepe is now clueless about CBs.

if Tuanzebe is so good, why is he back on loan with a championship team?

So because he started Varane ahead of Pepe he is infallible? He's made more than his fair share of feck ups with young players.

Steve Bruce was the manager at Villa when Tuanzebe first went there. Steve Bruce is a former player of ours and has a good relationship with our club. We sent players to Premiership clubs and they spent more time on the bench than actually playing like TFM at Palace and now at Fulham and Januzaj before.

 

[Adnan]

why is tuanzebe on loan in the championship?

Steve Bruce our ex CB from title winning teams from the past was their manager when he first went there. Bruce has a good relationship with the club.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

So because he started Varane ahead of Pepe he is infallible? He's made more than his fair share of feck ups with young players.

Steve Bruce was the manager at Villa when Tuanzebe first went there. Steve Bruce is a former player of ours and has a good relationship with our club. We sent players to Premiership clubs and they spent more time on the bench than actually playing like TFM at Palace and now at Fulham and Januzaj before.

So essentially he is not good enough to secure regular playing time at a lower PL club but he is good enough to be playing for us?

 

[Adnan]

So essentially he is not good enough to secure regular playing time at a lower PL club but he is good enough to be playing for us?

Which PL club was looking for a CB on loan?

 

[roonster09]

its funny how you have selectively picked signings by some arbitrary criteria of teams that have been in the CL semis as if those teams got there on the strength of defenders bought in 2016. Ramos was bought for a record fee as a teenager 13yrs ago but now he is relevant to compare him to bailly's signing? Its ridiculous how low some are willing to stoop.

Lets look at more relevant signings into PL 2016.
- bailly for 30m from Villarreal in la liga
- john stones for 50m from everton. similar age, better player but much higher price tag
- David luiz for 34m. older, and more matured. he was actually sold to psg for 50m two seasons prior.

While price is not a guaranteed factor for quality, as you will see bargain signings and overpayment at times, still it can give a good idea of what the market was like when the player was bought.

Bailly was not a bargain but he was not some world class CB as well. We paid a reasonable price and after one good season and one injury riddled second, it is still early to determine how he would pan out long term.

Eh? Those are not randomly picked signings, those are the defenders who play for top teams. I even said except Madrid every team made these signings recently, as usual standard is low, so to expect you to read before replying is a mistake on my part.

When Bailly was signed he was top 5 in transfer fee for a CB. He is still 12th highest in fee paid for CB and this was done is 2016 before Neymar inflation.

Also all the players mentioned were not signed some years ago, it was around the time Bailly was signed except for Madrid defenders.

Liverpool
Van Dijk - 75 million - 2018
Gomez - 3-5 million - 2015
Lovren - 20 million - 2014
Robertson - 7 Million - 2017
TAA - Academy player - NA

Roma
Juan Jesus - 10 million euros - 2016
Kolarov -5 million Euros - 2017
Fazio - 3.2 million Euros - 2016
Manolas - 15 million Euros - 2014
Florenzi - Academy

Madrid
Ramos - 27 million Euros
Varane - 10 million Euros
Marcelo - 5-6 million
Carvajal - 6 million

Bayern
Hummels - 38 million - 2016
Sule - 18 million - 2017
Kimmich - 7 million - 2015
Alaba - Academy

Barcelona (everyone signed after we signed Bailly)
Semedo - 35 million - 2017
Umtiti - 25 million euros - 2016
Lenglet - 35 million Euros - 2018

So yeah, as usual you are talking nonsense talking about Market value just because some 2 oil teams spent big for 2 CBs. These are the top teams in Europe and none of them have spent as much as we did on defense and every team signed almost whole defense in recent years.

No one said bailly was a bargain signing. He was in top 5 for the transfer fee paid for a CB when we signed him, that itself shows how your "30 milion is not the price for starting CB" is absolute nonsense.

Just because VVD cost 75 million doesn't mean every CB should be around that price. Every big team in Europe have proved how you can sign good CBs for reasonable price. This is just one more pathetic excuse by Jose fans.

 

[haram]

Tuanzebe isn't good enough..

Are you Mourinho's son?

Literally feck off with bringing Jose up when talking to me. You’re just annoying now. The original point was a poster was mad that we kept Jones and had Tuanzebe out on loan. As if Tuanzebe is the player that’s going to change things at the back for us.

After you yourself not even realising what you were quoting earlier you have made shit post after shit post.

 

[Adnan]

Literally feck off with bringing Jose up when talking to me. You’re just annoying now. The original point was a poster was mad that we kept Jones and had Tuanzebe out on loan. As if Tuanzebe is the player that’s going to change things at the back for us.

After you yourself not even realising what you were quoting earlier you have made shit post after shit post.

Does it hurt your feelings when I bring up the cnut Mourinho?

 

[haram]

Does it hurt your feelings when I bring up the cnut Mourinho?

First person I've put on ignore. You're just childish.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Which PL club was looking for a CB on loan?

Everton got Zuma on loan and Calum Chambers went to Fulham.

TFM got a move to Fulham and anti-youth Mourinho is giving Mctominay minutes, but Tuanzebe is so good that he can only go on loan to aston villa in the championship.

Kid has potential and hopefully develops well, but he is not at the level to be playing for us yet. If he was that precocious, many clubs would be rushing to sign him permanently from us.

 

[Adnan]

First person I've put on ignore. You're just childish.

You really take criticism of Mourinho not well at all. I'm sorry If I offended you, i'm done here.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Eh? Those are not randomly picked signings, those are the defenders who play for top teams. I even said except Madrid every team made these signings recently, as usual standard is low, so to expect you to read before replying is a mistake on my part.

When Bailly was signed he was top 5 in transfer fee for a CB. He is still 12th highest in fee paid for CB and this was done is 2016 before Neymar inflation.

Also all the players mentioned were not signed some years ago, it was around the time Bailly was signed except for Madrid defenders.

Liverpool
Van Dijk - 75 million - 2018
Gomez - 3-5 million - 2015
Lovren - 20 million - 2014
Robertson - 7 Million - 2017
TAA - Academy player - NA

Roma
Juan Jesus - 10 million euros - 2016
Kolarov -5 million Euros - 2017
Fazio - 3.2 million Euros - 2016
Manolas - 15 million Euros - 2014
Florenzi - Academy

Madrid
Ramos - 27 million Euros
Varane - 10 million Euros
Marcelo - 5-6 million
Carvajal - 6 million

Bayern
Hummels - 38 million - 2016
Sule - 18 million - 2017
Kimmich - 7 million - 2015
Alaba - Academy

Barcelona (everyone signed after we signed Bailly)
Semedo - 35 million - 2017
Umtiti - 25 million euros - 2016
Lenglet - 35 million Euros - 2018

So yeah, as usual you are talking nonsense talking about Market value just because some 2 oil teams spent big for 2 CBs. These are the top teams in Europe and none of them have spent as much as we did on defense and every team signed almost whole defense in recent years.

No one said bailly was a bargain signing. He was in top 5 for the transfer fee paid for a CB when we signed him, that itself shows how your "30 milion is not the price for starting CB" is absolute nonsense.

Just because VVD cost 75 million doesn't mean every CB should be around that price. Every big team in Europe have proved how you can sign good CBs for reasonable price. This is just one more pathetic excuse by Jose fans.

Your list is arbitrary cos playing in the CL semis does not not mean that you are a good CB or starting quality for a top PL team. or do you think Lovren is starting CB quality?

You also ignore the local pull or circumstances that clubs like Bayern enjoy that lets them get local players for cheap e.g. Hummels is from Bayern originally and his family are all in Munich, he left dortmund with year left on his contract and dortmund were in a weak negotiating position. The alternative was that he left for free the next summer.

Relevant comparison is what was bought for same position in the same market. Stones was valued at 50m even when Mourinho wanted him so its not some oil club inflating his price.

(the price of LBs and RBs are irrelevant to the discussion as they are different positions)

 

[roonster09]

Your list is arbitrary cos playing in the CL semis does not not mean that you are a good CB or starting quality for a top PL team. or do you think Lovren is starting CB quality?

You also ignore the local pull or circumstances that clubs like Bayern enjoy that lets them get local players for cheap e.g. Hummels is from Bayern originally and his family are all in Munich, he left dortmund with year left on his contract and dortmund were in a weak negotiating position. The alternative was that he left for free the next summer.

Relevant comparison is what was bought for same position in the same market. Stones was valued at 50m even when Mourinho wanted him so its not some oil club inflating his price.

(the price of LBs and RBs are irrelevant to the discussion as they are different positions)

Wow, new goal posts now.

Well playing in CL semi finals means teams are good. Lovren is not good CB but Gomez is and he was signed for 5 million.

We signed Shaw for 27 million and Liverpool signed Robertson for 7 million and we signed even before all the inflation, so did Liverpool not sign a starting LB material? Their LB cost less than the player he was signed to replace, Moreno.

Barca signed 2 French CBs who have no connection to Barca, Umtiti and Lenglet and none of them cost 50 million or 70 million.

All the players were signed in the same market, you think Barca, Bayern, Madrid all sign players from somewhere else and have some reservations? These players were available for everyone.

Besides all that it's hilarious that you ignore Bailly was in top 5 for the fee paid for CBs when we signed him. "We didn't pay starting CB price" is one of the dumbest thing posted here and that's some achievement.

Also go on post which all CBs cost more than Bailly, will see how much we paid. Just because City signed Stones for 50 million and Liverpool signed VVD for 75 million doesn't mean standard is set.

 

[MikeKing]

Also go on post which all CBs cost more than Bailly, will see how much we paid. Just because City signed Stones for 50 million and Liverpool signed VVD for 75 million doesn't mean standard is set.

It depends. It kinda does if other players like Koulibaly and Skriniar gets quoted at similar prices or even above that, it means a standard has been set. It doesn't necessarily mean you can't get excellent players at lower prices though. The thing is that clubs are selling the potential of young players, so they can get more money of a currently subpar player if they exaggerate the potential than they would have if they waited to sell after he reached his potential. An example of this, in my eyes, would be Lindelof. He is a 15m punt player for Southampton right now, and his potential he'll realistically reach is to be a starter for clubs around 4-8th in the league, maybe worth 35m. So we have effectively paid full price to develop him to his highest level. It's absurd but the only way to avoid this is to collect better scouting info and not be fooled by the market, which has changed.

 

[Chairman Steve]

To me, he is the classic type of player Sir Alex liked. Someone without the marquee status and someone who would run through walls for him despite not being the most talented of players. He’s a 7/10 player who can churn out 9/10 performances under Sir Alex because Sir Alex is a man management master.

If he played next to Vidic or Rio, it was likely he’d do well. When they move on and now he’s the senior head then he doesn’t do well. Either he needs a world class partner alongside to cover for him or he peaked early.

In hindsight I’ve thought we should have phased out the Sir Alex old boys quicker. As I said previously they’re 7/10s and Sir Alex got them playing like 9/10s at times. The moment he went they became ordinary and we’re stuck with them... How many of Sir Alex’s squad have maintained their standard and even got better after he left, apart from DDG?

 

[manunited1919]

We moved Johnny Evans and Rafael out of our club, but we kept Phil “trash” Jones. Who is going to buy our trash?

 

[Preezy]

He's stuck in a vicious cycle - he's injured for ages, then gets a chance to play into form, has a 'mare, then gets injured again.

I can't believe he's still at the club.

 

[MikeKing]

How many of Sir Alex’s squad have maintained their standard and even got better after he left, apart from DDG?

Only DDG and Smalling from the younger ones has taken to the responsibility of improving without SAF. I know people like to bundle the latter in with our worst performers for the sake of making a point, but it's important to differentiate. DDG has reached the top level and while Smalling hasn't quite done that, he has proven himself more than valuable to our club, unlike the rest. Valencia and Young both reestablished themselves as wing backs and while their efforts has been respectable, it was too late for them and their quality has ultimately been the same as it was.

Jones was talented and could have been a good player without the injuries but SAF would have sold and replaced him very quick if he had time to rebuild his side once again. Has been clear to me since 2014 that Jones wasn't going to make it. He isn't a 7/10 player because he never plays, and even if he did I honestly think SAF got this one a bit wrong from the start. No shame in that, although "the best player ever" quote really has affected a few fans quite a bit.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

He's still only 26, he needs to go to a lower level club and fix his injuries and play regularly to resurrect his career.

 

[Johan07]

I would keep Jones around on the terms of his current contract. He earns around 50-60k a week depending on what source you trust. Thats almost half of what Rojo is on since he was awarded a new contract last year.
We need to free up wage room and Rojo and Darmian should be the first to go on that premise. Keep Jones around if he is ready to prolong terms under 100k a week. We will not find a better squad player at that price. His presence also helps with the homegrown rules, which might be an issue soon for us.
Darmian and Rojo out and two quality defenders in during the January and summer window should be enough in my book defensively. We need to invest heavily in CM regardless if Mourinho stays. That wont come cheap.
Jones is a cheap alternative to have in the squad, with some upside if he can stay injury free.

 

[SteveW]

I would keep Jones around on the terms of his current contract. He earns around 50-60k a week depending on what source you trust. Thats almost half of what Rojo is on since he was awarded a new contract last year.
We need to free up wage room and Rojo and Darmian should be the first to go on that premise. Keep Jones around if he is ready to prolong terms under 100k a week. We will not find a better squad player at that price. His presence also helps with the homegrown rules, which might be an issue soon for us.
Darmian and Rojo out and two quality defenders in during the January and summer window should be enough in my book defensively. We need to invest heavily in CM regardless if Mourinho stays. That wont come cheap.
Jones is a cheap alternative to have in the squad, with some upside if he can stay injury free.

Sensible post. Jones is definitely a better player than Rojo and Darmian. Selling those 2 and buying quality replacements would make be correct step.

Jones can be useful backup until someone like Tuanzebe is ready to stake a claim.

 

[MikeKing]

Sensible post. Jones is definitely a better player than Rojo and Darmian. Selling those 2 and buying quality replacements would make be correct step.

Jones can be useful backup until someone like Tuanzebe is ready to stake a claim.

He has played 15 games in 2018. Scored something like 3 own goals in that time. Why prolong the inevitable? We are not good at the moment, but in no world is rationalising Jones hanging around anymore going to be sensible.

 

[Oldyella]

I would keep Jones around on the terms of his current contract. He earns around 50-60k a week depending on what source you trust. Thats almost half of what Rojo is on since he was awarded a new contract last year.
We need to free up wage room and Rojo and Darmian should be the first to go on that premise. Keep Jones around if he is ready to prolong terms under 100k a week. We will not find a better squad player at that price. His presence also helps with the homegrown rules, which might be an issue soon for us.
Darmian and Rojo out and two quality defenders in during the January and summer window should be enough in my book defensively. We need to invest heavily in CM regardless if Mourinho stays. That wont come cheap.
Jones is a cheap alternative to have in the squad, with some upside if he can stay injury free.

Fair point but the squad is clogged up with mediocrity as it is. Let Jones go, he's had more than enough chances. What's the point in a squad player who's rarely fit and not good enough when he is?

 

[Johan07]

He has played 15 games in 2018. Scored something like 3 own goals in that time. Why prolong the inevitable? We are not good at the moment, but in no world is rationalising Jones hanging around anymore going to be sensible.

Its very easy to shout "Jones out". You need to consider his place in the squad and the money he is on.
We have 5 CBs in the squad now, and if we consider him being 4-5th CB choice going forward; starting 15 games is about right for that type of player.
What one must consider is the cost for upgrading him, and then I dont mean with Koulibaly or Aldeweireld, I mean his place as 4-5th CB at the club. We will not get a more cost effective player taking up that place in the squad. Just not gonna happen in todays market.
We should not spend wages on upgrading our 5th choice CB, when that money can and must be spent in other places of the squad. I am happy with having an English international around as a squad player going forward.
If we get rid of Darmian and Rojo we will have room for a new top CB wage-wise: Aldeweireld or Koulibaly are the obvious choices; if they want to join us that is. It would free up a squad place for Tuanzebe as well next summer. And if so he will need playing time, which would make Jones position even less important.
That will be enough defensively for me next summer. We need to invest and spend money on wages in other parts of the team.
If we are putting De Gea on 400k a week it will be even more important to have "cheap" players like Jones in the squad.

 

[manunited1919]

Its very easy to shout "Jones out". You need to consider his place in the squad and the money he is on.
We have 5 CBs in the squad now, and if we consider him being 4-5th CB choice going forward; starting 15 games is about right for that type of player.
What one must consider is the cost for upgrading him, and then I dont mean with Koulibaly or Aldeweireld, I mean his place as 4-5th CB at the club. We will not get a more cost effective player taking up that place in the squad. Just not gonna happen in todays market.
We should not spend wages on upgrading our 5th choice CB, when that money can and must be spent in other places of the squad. I am happy with having an English international around as a squad player going forward.
If we get rid of Darmian and Rojo we will have room for a new top CB wage-wise: Aldeweireld or Koulibaly are the obvious choices; if they want to join us that is. It would free up a squad place for Tuanzebe as well next summer. And if so he will need playing time, which would make Jones position even less important.
That will be enough defensively for me next summer. We need to invest and spend money on wages in other parts of the team.
If we are putting De Gea on 400k a week it will be even more important to have "cheap" players like Jones in the squad.

We still need Jones sold, regardless of his wages. It would be better to give the opportunities Jones is getting to someone from the academy.

 

[settembrini]

There is no logical sense in keeping a player who can't a) stay fit and b) perform well when he is fit. Jones should have gone years ago.

 

[Johan07]

We still need Jones sold, regardless of his wages. It would be better to give the opportunities Jones is getting to someone from the academy.

I disagree.
Not saying that Jones should be here longterm, but IMO a good/realistic CB-squad next year would be Koulibaly, Smalling, Bailly, Lindelof, Jones and Tuanzebe (who could get some minutes at RB as well). I dont think it would be wise to have more than one youngster in the squad at CB and Tuanzebe has earned it nxt year. IMO.

 

[Renegade]

I disagree.
Not saying that Jones should be here longterm, but IMO a good/realistic CB-squad next year would be Koulibaly, Smalling, Bailly, Lindelof, Jones and Tuanzebe (who could get some minutes at RB as well). I dont think it would be wise to have more than one youngster in the squad at CB and Tuanzebe has earned it nxt year. IMO.

Let a young defender have an opportunity to make their mistakes and grow. Jones has had enough chances. I actually feel he needs to move for his own benefit. New environment and medical team.

 

[Oldyella]

I disagree.
Not saying that Jones should be here longterm, but IMO a good/realistic CB-squad next year would be Koulibaly, Smalling, Bailly, Lindelof, Jones and Tuanzebe (who could get some minutes at RB as well). I dont think it would be wise to have more than one youngster in the squad at CB and Tuanzebe has earned it nxt year. IMO.

That's too many CBs though. Even if we do let Jones leave it still feels one too heavy.

 

[red4ever 79]

I disagree.
Not saying that Jones should be here longterm, but IMO a good/realistic CB-squad next year would be Koulibaly, Smalling, Bailly, Lindelof, Jones and Tuanzebe (who could get some minutes at RB as well). I dont think it would be wise to have more than one youngster in the squad at CB and Tuanzebe has earned it nxt year. IMO.

Great, let' settle for another mediocre season next year with c*ap CB's. Take Jones and Smalling out of your list and add another CB then we will be talking. Why would you advocate to keep Jones. Guy is either injured or making gaffs in games. He isnt even very good

 

[red4ever 79]

@ Mods can we add a poll here?. Keep Jones, Let him go on a free? I would be interested to see