Couldn’t agree more. It’s a must.
New Stadium or Revamp Old Trafford | Aim is to build 100k seater stadium
- Thread starter Ian Reus
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
To be fair the roof has leaked multiple times. The seats are too small and to cramped. I've been numerous times where you end up walking through puddles when you eventually get into the toilets. The concourses are cramped aswell. Some of the views are terrible and miserable when your up at that roof aswell.
Yeah it's not the worse stadium in the world, it's fine for watching football for 90 minutes but that's not what it is anymore.
Well probably something to do with resident's filing lawsuits, appealing, contractors going into administration etc.
I was referring to attendances but who knows.
Nah that was sorted years ago as far as I know. They've had planning permission for a few years now and the go ahead to redevelop. They were just waiting on funding.
I'm sure they'd have found a contractor if the money was there for the work. The previous contractor was removed about a year ago, but they only found out last week the UK government wasn't funding it.
But anyway. This thread is about Old Trafford.
My preference is to just redevelop but if we look at RM it’s basically a new stadium. So what’s the nostalgia benefit? Keep the pitch in the exact same position at the cost of new a stadium that will serve generations long after us?
Thats really the key issue. Put our selfishness first, or do we acknowledge that the decision made will last for at least the next 100 years, likely more, and the majority of people it will benefit are not even born yet. So it’s not really about us and our memories.
I love OT. As a United fan, it does shame me that the atmosphere at the San Siro is 100* better than OT. But I think the OT atmosphere is something that really only existed until the late 90s, funnily enough it’s possible that the expansion from 55000 to 68000 is what destroyed the atmosphere because that’s when it went from a very loud stadium to one that was often very quiet.
Thats really the key issue. Put our selfishness first, or do we acknowledge that the decision made will last for at least the next 100 years, likely more, and the majority of people it will benefit are not even born yet. So it’s not really about us and our memories.
I love OT. As a United fan, it does shame me that the atmosphere at the San Siro is 100* better than OT. But I think the OT atmosphere is something that really only existed until the late 90s, funnily enough it’s possible that the expansion from 55000 to 68000 is what destroyed the atmosphere because that’s when it went from a very loud stadium to one that was often very quiet.
Whereabouts in the ground do you sit?
I doubt any modern stadium will last past 50 years never mind 100 without major renovations and most likely rebuilding.
Yeah it depends how you look at it. Which metric or data do you use.
It's similar in the south. GAA is definitely way better organised and has more official participation and attendances but I still think soccer is bigger in terms of interest and informal participation as loads of lads play astro and 5 a side and the PL has a huge following.
I don't understand what's soulless about a modern, comfortable stadium.
How does sitting in a cramped, damp leaky old concrete stadium add any soul to the experience?
Just sounds like an old bloke stuck in his ways moaning about change.
Old Trafford is utter shit compared with some of the newly built stadiums around the world.
I would look at the new stadium/rebuild a different way.
Let's say there are no plans for United to build a new stadium or renovate Old Trafford at all. The question would then be, how long can Old Trafford go on for, as it currently is right now?
Eventually you realise, even with nostalgia factored in, that there will come an absolute moment in time, where Old Trafford has been completely left behind by other clubs either updating their stadiums or building brand new ones (which in reality, is happening right now)
I get the nostalgia point of view, but unfortunately, nostalgia doesn't move you on, it only keeps you rooted in the past. I personally think updating or renovating Old Trafford holds it back. It was fine 20 - 30 years ago, but construction has moved on since then and so has stadium design.
I doubt there are many Spurs fans hankering after the old White Hart Lane despite the nostalgia of seeing Hoddle and Gazza playing there.
If United want to continue to be considered one of the biggest clubs in the world, then a new stadium is a must imo. They simply can't keep doing Old Trafford up like a DIY project on 60 Minute Makeover.
Let's say there are no plans for United to build a new stadium or renovate Old Trafford at all. The question would then be, how long can Old Trafford go on for, as it currently is right now?
Eventually you realise, even with nostalgia factored in, that there will come an absolute moment in time, where Old Trafford has been completely left behind by other clubs either updating their stadiums or building brand new ones (which in reality, is happening right now)
I get the nostalgia point of view, but unfortunately, nostalgia doesn't move you on, it only keeps you rooted in the past. I personally think updating or renovating Old Trafford holds it back. It was fine 20 - 30 years ago, but construction has moved on since then and so has stadium design.
I doubt there are many Spurs fans hankering after the old White Hart Lane despite the nostalgia of seeing Hoddle and Gazza playing there.
If United want to continue to be considered one of the biggest clubs in the world, then a new stadium is a must imo. They simply can't keep doing Old Trafford up like a DIY project on 60 Minute Makeover.
I'm more interested in the design of the new stadium than the loss of the old one. As long as it's a football stadium first and that isn't compromised to make it multi-purpose then I'm in favour. Access at OT is poor, as it got bigger it got more cramped in its site. Internally more seats meant worse viewing angles.
The romantic in me still hates losing the old ground though - even though it looks nothing like it did when I was a kid (when the cantilever stand as I still call it was state of the art) so I was wondering what would be a fitting echo of it.
I finally realised that if they gave the old pitch area a job that made it a fan space (not as a hotel or a car park!) even the sentimental bit of me could be appeased. They could even leave some of North Stand behind as restaurants, museum, bars etc. The pitch itself? Zone it so you can still see the shape and the position of the lines on the pitch but yeah, give it something(s) to do but somewhere any fan can go.
Apologies for the ramble
The romantic in me still hates losing the old ground though - even though it looks nothing like it did when I was a kid (when the cantilever stand as I still call it was state of the art) so I was wondering what would be a fitting echo of it.
I finally realised that if they gave the old pitch area a job that made it a fan space (not as a hotel or a car park!) even the sentimental bit of me could be appeased. They could even leave some of North Stand behind as restaurants, museum, bars etc. The pitch itself? Zone it so you can still see the shape and the position of the lines on the pitch but yeah, give it something(s) to do but somewhere any fan can go.
Apologies for the ramble
I'm more interested in the design of the new stadium than the loss of the old one. As long as it's a football stadium first and that isn't compromised to make it multi-purpose then I'm in favour. Access at OT is poor, as it got bigger it got more cramped in its site. Internally more seats meant worse viewing angles.
The romantic in me still hates losing the old ground though - even though it looks nothing like it did when I was a kid (when the cantilever stand as I still call it was state of the art) so I was wondering what would be a fitting echo of it.
I finally realised that if they gave the old pitch area a job that made it a fan space (not as a hotel or a car park!) even the sentimental bit of me could be appeased. They could even leave some of North Stand behind as restaurants, museum, bars etc. The pitch itself? Zone it so you can still see the shape and the position of the lines on the pitch but yeah, give it something(s) to do but somewhere any fan can go.
Apologies for the ramble
It's actually a good idea if they kept the old pitch and north stand and let fans have a kickabout on it.
That would be pretty awesome but unrealistic.
I think the club and the architects have to research the different options and then present them to fans.
If they can present different options in terms of cost, timeline, naming rights, attendance etc....then we can make a more informed decision.
Redevelopment is probably cheaper but maybe limited in terms of attendance and will take longer.
I'm more interested in the design of the new stadium than the loss of the old one. As long as it's a football stadium first and that isn't compromised to make it multi-purpose then I'm in favour. Access at OT is poor, as it got bigger it got more cramped in its site. Internally more seats meant worse viewing angles.
The romantic in me still hates losing the old ground though - even though it looks nothing like it did when I was a kid (when the cantilever stand as I still call it was state of the art) so I was wondering what would be a fitting echo of it.
I finally realised that if they gave the old pitch area a job that made it a fan space (not as a hotel or a car park!) even the sentimental bit of me could be appeased. They could even leave some of North Stand behind as restaurants, museum, bars etc. The pitch itself? Zone it so you can still see the shape and the position of the lines on the pitch but yeah, give it something(s) to do but somewhere any fan can go.
Apologies for the ramble
I don't think we'll have the space for that. A new 100k seater stadium will probably have to sit on most of the current footprint of OT.
I thought the drawings were still showing a major revision/takeover of the rail freight yard - hence the need for municipal/government coordination and backing?
If we have to demolish old OT to build I think my biggest concern will be how long are we homeless for? At least local Spurs fans had decent public transport links to Wembley and were heading to a bigger capacity ground. We'd be doing the opposite.
I think it would have to be more structured than that but... A 5-a-side pitch for kids/fan mini-tournaments would only use about half of one half of the pitch. That could maybe also be set up as a futsal pitch size area for miscellaneous other sports including things like blind football or even basketball.
Still leaving a big chunk of space for people to wander through or whatever much better idea some actual thinking and planning could come up with!
I haven't seen any drawings of proposed positioning of a new stadium to be honest. But I imagine the club would have to buy all or part of the freight terminal, before they'd be able to build there.
I thought that was part of why they roped in people like Andy Burnham and Keir Starmer. The funding issue goes beyond the stadium and into the overall infrastructure plan for Manchester.
I believe a lot of the freight train traffic goes through central Manchester and it's part of the reason why it's hard to add passenger capacity to mainline services into Piccadilly as well as do anything much with the local network around Castlefield. Long term they're talking about upgrading the Wigan route to take more freight (definitely a massive infrastructure project that's all about government)
In a stadium planning timescale though I'm assuming they've found or are trying to find some kind of staged approach that fits in with an overall future infrastructure plan. Maybe it's all just wishful thinking though.
Whatever happens, do not give BAM the contract for building the stadium
Yes, the freight terminal is in a difficult place railway capacity-wise, but also if it were moved it would save an awful lot of road freight movements in such a built-up area.
Looking at the footprint of the Spurs ground compared to Old Trafford I can't see any possibility of building a similar stadium there, but 40,000 seats bigger of course, unless the freight sidings are taken over.
It's that or completely different site for me.
Peel Holdings are the most interesting of the consortium, they are so experienced in truly massie developments, gaining the backing of local authorities, and the compulsory purchase and finance needed. Not my subject, but it is theirs.
East or Stretford. Not been for a few years, so maybe it’s changed but really doubt it.
Point doesn’t matter, OT has been renovated about 10 times in its history so we can assume similar for any new stadium.
My point is what is decided will most likely last for over a 100 years. So need to consider the longer term benefit to people and the community.
I've got news for you, the fans will not be making any decisions whatsoever, there might be some consulting done on certain aspects but that's it
If this one is correct then we own enough land around the Stadium to build a new one without really affecting the frieght terminal that much.
Going off that image it would have to be built over the canal. And even then it would be tight as a 90-100k seater stadium would have a bigger footprint than Old Trafford.
I saw a recent video on TikTok about some fan zone bar in (I think) LA where fans could watch the game and it looked almost like they were in the stadium. Would be pretty awesome to convert Old Trafford into that for 40k+ fans to watch for cheaper next-door to the new stadium
Is 90 or 100k the ambition?
Unless they buy the freight terminal, United will probably have to do the same as Spurs...and build on the car park before demolishing Stretford End and perhaps more to complete the new ground. We'll probably have to play elsewhere and all. Let's see how they do it eh.
100k according to Ratcliffe himself.
Huge problem with that image is that it depicts the new footprint as the same size as OT. A new 100k seater with more spacious seating would have a considerably larger footprint than Old Trafford.
Exactly, it's bollox I'm afraid, the Spurs stadium has a footprint way bigger than the current OT never mind a stadium that would hold 30K more
Yeah most probably mate.
The cynical part of me suspects all this talk of OT staying/being downgraded/used for u23's is just PR to get more people open to the idea of a new stadium and OT being at least partly demolished. Then at some point they'll annonce it's not practicle to keep any of it (which it probably isn't) and bulldoze the whole stadium.
Perhaps. Although Gary Neville (who obviously has some insight here) cast doubt on the economic viability of maintaining a downsized Old Trafford for the women's/youth teams on the TOTD podcast last week. He also talked up refurbishment, saying it was just as good as a new build.
I still think that a furbishment of some kind (probably with an expanded south stand) is the most likely outcome here, largely because of economic factors.
I don’t think there’s any huge rush to decide. The stadium is still the biggest and in terms of revenue we still fill it each week easily.
Obviously a decision will be made soon but rather be thorough and ensure we explore everything before committing either way.
Obviously a decision will be made soon but rather be thorough and ensure we explore everything before committing either way.
If Old Trafford was some beautiful stone and brick building from the 1800s, then sure I could see the point in updating it. But it's a bunch of scaffolding and corrugated iron sheets. It looks like a big allotment shed. Get rid.
Is it possible to expand current Old Trafford over the canal?
In short:, Demolish one stand, rotate the field and stadium 90 degrees and expand the current stands? (While making the slopes go away)
I would think that would take as long and cost as much as a new stadium. Given the current layout I don't think we'd be expanding stands, we'd be more or less rebuilding them but on top of the current mishmash of foundations and services that's evolved over the last 50 years.
And we'd definitely be homeless throughout the build.
The biggest thing to look at as well imo is that other clubs are starting to creep over 60000+ attendance and if you filter in the fact these grounds are picked for other events football or non football, then we no longer have the finances to compete and beat them financially easy. A 80/85k OT makeover if possible, cannot compete with a new build 100k stadium with all the bells and whistles, financially, which obviously is the game changer with FFP.
I think it's been decided, Jim clearly wants a new build. More potential revenue and then there's the legacy factor. And a refurb won't be the same as a new build unless they knock each stand down and rebuild. That won't we easy due to the canal and railway - and a lack of footprint for a significantly larger OT.
Pictures imply that they are planning on knocking Old Trafford down before building the new stadium?
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