Rio has been poor...
Ronaldo isn't here...
The season isn't over. Yeah, I know the drill.
Moyes: Stick or Sack?
- Thread starter KiD MoYeS
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Ronaldo isn't here...
The season isn't over. Yeah, I know the drill.
In all honesty, hand on heart what players would you keep out of our squad that I haven't already mentioned?I've never said our squads crap. Far from it, I think our squad is excellent with a wealth of young talent. What we lack though are central midfielders. Our attack and defence don't really need any additions (except for replacing Evra which was a given anyway considering his age).
Why do you think I keep banging on about signing Rakitic
We had many injuries last season too, Rooney was here last season but this season he is reborn and you know that, and are being serious about Januzaj? he was also here last year? come on.
RVP was the difference last season yes but that is no excuse for what is happening this year.
Again, the problematic squad you're talking about won it comfortably last year, played better than Mourinho's Madrid over both matches, has added a 27m pound midfielder of Moye's choice, plus Janujaz and a reborn Rooney yet has managed to brake one negative record after the other so far,
And youre saying this is all down to RVP missing a few games. Really?
I used to love getting up at 3/4am in the morning here in OZ religiously to watch us play. I have never missed a game live since i moved here. It's never bothered me. But the last few games I have really started to consider that staying asleep might be more enjoyable.
Rio Ferdinand - retire
Ryan Giggs - retire
Patrice Evra
Alexander Büttner
Antonio Valencia
Anderson
Those are the players I'd probably release/sell. However, I'd prioritise these:
Patrice Evra
Anderson
Ryan Giggs - retire
Won't bother listing Rio as we already have 4 CB's without him, which is all that's needed. Need a replacement for Evra and 2 CM's to replace Anderson and Giggs. Our wingers get slated, but we're so predictable and easy to defend against because nothing comes through the middle. If we can bring a winger in, I'd let Valencia go, but I'd keep Young around. He's a useful squad player imo and we can't afford to make sweeping changes like Tottenham did this season. Dribs and drabs, not all at once!
Ronaldo didn't leave last Summer, and the Rio-Vidic partnership didn't start declining this season. We have been missing both for a few years now, yet we kept finding other resources to stay competitive/win the league.
We're not even asking Moyes to win the league now, but to say that it's acceptable for Moyes to finish below 4th with this squad because one of our good performers last year has been injured this season doesn't really convince me. It's his job to find new resources to stay competitive, if he can't do it, then we hired the wrong guy.
You're making it sound like we were a shit team who finished 5th every year until Van Persie came along...
There's too much emphasis on individual players here and not enough on things like the atmosphere in the dressing room, training ground, training practices - all of which are directly or indirectly related to how the team is managed.
Which surprised everybody and I'll say it again, if we didn't have Van Persie, we wouldn't have been anywhere near winning it. Also if we're being honest we didn't play better than Madrid over both legs. They would have battered us at their ground if it wasn't for great defending and the did batter us at OT.
That squad massively over achieved last season and that was down to the magic of RVP and SAF.
This season, the players aren't hungry enough, they're getting used to a new management team, new tactics, etc and the squad has had lots of injuries and uninterested underperforming players. All these things have conspired to make this a shit season so far, not just Moyes to blame.
If he gets the chance to build his own squad and impose his own personality and is given support but things still don't improve, then yeah, he can do one. Until then, ignoring all the other problems and calling for a new manager's head after 6 months is childish, clueless, disrespectful and typical of some of the spoilt bastard fans we have.
Yeah this season I've been sleeping and recording the game to watch in the morning. I struggle to stay awake in most of our matches these days.
Your last paragraph is completely irrelevant to what we've been discussing, but we could go on and on and never agree, for example you say we would have been battered at their ground if it wasnt for great defending and yet this year we have forgotten how to defend all together, and I completely disagree that they battered us at home, I feel we were the better team and in control until Nani got red carded. I also feel that the quality of our squad deserves much better than to be 7th eleven points behind with 5 loses at home to mid table teams.But you will come back with another reply again and we will never agree so lets leave it at that.
I don't think anyone would suggest that injuries to RVP and others are the sole explanation for the discrepancy. But this isn't a comparison between like and like to begin with. The question is whether Moyes has horribly underachieved or not. Anyone who isn't perfectly deluded knew it would be hard, not to say impossible for him to emulate Fergie's last season in terms of results. He is not Fergie, that's the main, huge factor. The teams we call our rivals are better this season, that's another big factor. We went into the season without having strengthened significantly, with a manager who isn't Fergie but who finds himself having to fill Fergie's shoes and who is up against stronger opponents than Fergie faced last season (and more of them too - Liverpool are better than anticipated, so are Everton, Spurs and Southampton are in the mix too, more or less). Given these circumstances it's not unreasonable to point to certain extremely untimely injuries, RVP's not least. He's a match winner, the sort of player who can win a match for you even when you aren't playing well at all - which was precisely what he did for us last season on numerous occasions.
It seems to me that everyone agrees, in principle, that Fergie's record last season cannot be used as a benchmark here - and yet it pops up again and again: Won the league at a canter, the squad should be challenging for the league, eleven points ahead versus eleven behind, etc.
We're not many points off a position we should call acceptable in his very first season on the job. In that context RVP might have been the very difference. An RVP in last season's form could have won us those points - that is not an unreasonable claim at all. At the end of the day it's no good as an outright excuse - you play what you have and we have played bloody poorly on the whole - but it's not entirely irrelevant either: If we're to give Moyes any chance at all here we must try to look for something beyond the results. They have been too poor, everyone will admit that - including himself.
It seems to me that everyone agrees, in principle, that Fergie's record last season cannot be used as a benchmark here - and yet it pops up again and again: Won the league at a canter, the squad should be challenging for the league, eleven points ahead versus eleven behind, etc.
We're not many points off a position we should call acceptable in his very first season on the job. In that context RVP might have been the very difference. An RVP in last season's form could have won us those points - that is not an unreasonable claim at all. At the end of the day it's no good as an outright excuse - you play what you have and we have played bloody poorly on the whole - but it's not entirely irrelevant either: If we're to give Moyes any chance at all here we must try to look for something beyond the results. They have been too poor, everyone will admit that - including himself.
No, I agree that even with this squad we should be doing better. My point is that it isn't all down to the manager. There have been a whole host of things contributing to our bad start, and yes, some poor team selections and wrong tactics from Moyes have been to blame, too but he's just taken the hardest job in football and I think we need to get past the disappointment and cut him some slack, at the very least till the end of the season.
Bravo.
The fact that he isn't Fergie is a good starting point that leads to all sorts of questions as to why we didn't select someone who was more like Fergie, in terms of being able to create an atmosphere of success and team solidarity.
In fairness to Moyes his Everton sides always had great solidarity.
I voted stick, although I am concerned about falling out of the top 4. If we don't qualify for the champions league I'm afraid that Rooney's head will turn and RVP will be disheartened. Add to that any top class potential signings will want to be playing in the champions league there could be a real problem for us. Unfortunately, I don't think sacking Moyes and hiring a new manager will solve this also. Our best chance is to stack with Moyes and hope he can bring the players to push for that champions league spot.
I think Liverpool's squad is thinner than ours and with a bit of luck they could drop a few points.
We have to stick with Moyes as its the only viable option, realistically there isn't really a top class manager that could step in now, save us and be good enough to be SAF's successor.
I think Moyes has learnt a lot in these months in charge and I'm willing to give him another full season to show what Sir Alex saw in him.
I think Liverpool's squad is thinner than ours and with a bit of luck they could drop a few points.
We have to stick with Moyes as its the only viable option, realistically there isn't really a top class manager that could step in now, save us and be good enough to be SAF's successor.
I think Moyes has learnt a lot in these months in charge and I'm willing to give him another full season to show what Sir Alex saw in him.
Critical point right there.
...which takes us right back to the question of when it is reasonable to call judgment on the man regarding precisely these things.
Where did you come up with that from?? I don't agree. SAF is the greatest manager of all time imo, but to try to "disqualify" the fact that we won the league last year with the same squad is a very poor attempt to defend Moyes imo..
The second bolded part: So what's your point? Nobody asked him to win the league this season, but if he finishes below fourth, no excuse would do.
The issue for me is that a lot of us, including myself, seem to have moved the goal posts a lot as the season has progressed. Before a ball was kicked this season I laughed off the idea of not achieving top four and stated that Moyes should most definitely be axed should we fail to do so. Now that it has become a real possibility, and very likely, I'm changed my opinion to state Moyes needs to be given another summer to build his squad. Why is that?
Because you wised up?
Alright. You don't agree. Fair enough. The reasons behind my claim have been stated and re-stated in these Moyes threads hundreds of times. I doubt much will come from going over 'em yet again.
I dunno, Don. Me, wised up?
I didn't feel that finishing outside the top four was acceptable in August but it's almost as if Moyes has just lowered my and a few others expectations as the season has progressed. Which isn't right, we're Manchester United.
I dunno, Don. Me, wised up?
I didn't feel that finishing outside the top four was acceptable in August but it's almost as if Moyes has just lowered my and a few others expectations as the season has progressed. Which isn't right, we're Manchester United.
Yeah, you definitely have. You could possibly be the most improved poster, ever.Anyway, yeah, we are Manchester United and in a way it's not right to have our expectations lowered, not after the dominance we've built up and we should, in theory accept nothing but the best. On the other hand, we are Manchester United, a club that stick by our manager and gives them time and money to build great squads. Imagine how hard it was for Fergie at the start and every time he rebuilt a squad but we and the club stuck by him. We don't treat our managers like crap.
You're just being realistic, KC. God himself would find it hard following SAF. Yes Moyes should be doing better but them's the breaks, its tough going and we should just give him a proper go of it.
Given that other managers have been able to do it with lesser and equal squads (Everton and Chelsea for example), I'd say its a legitimate question to ask. Fergie did it with this group last year and Moyes is struggling with the same players despite having had such a reputation at Everton. Ultimately its the manager responsibility to get players to play to their potential and Moyes is rightly under pressure for his unacceptable first six months on the job.
Anyway, yeah, we are Manchester United and in a way it's not right to have our expectations lowered, not after the dominance we've built up and we should, in theory accept nothing but the best. On the other hand, we are Manchester United, a club that stick by our manager and gives them time and money to build great squads. Imagine how hard it was for Fergie at the start and every time he rebuilt a squad but we and the club stuck by him. We don't treat our managers like crap.
You're just being realistic, KC. God himself would find it hard following SAF. Yes Moyes should be doing better but them's the breaks, its tough going and we should just give him a proper go of it.
Yeah, my dad always said following Ferguson was always gonna be accepting a poison chalice and I know what he means now. An impossible act to follow really. All we can do is give Moyes the chance I suppose. I, like everyone else, would've hoped he was a strong enough manager to produce better results so far but I do recognise that the squad is deteriorating and it definite need of some reshaping.
We're in big trouble if Moyes is having the same influence on our players as the one he's having on our fans...
You do know that moyes?
Faith restored in the Caf.
Sacking him after half a season is just mental. I'd give him out the season and then the next. If we're still out of the top 4 and fail to impact Europe completely, then I'd say he must go. Ferguson at least had to build up a team from scratch. Moyes inherited the freaking Champions. There has to be a boundary for how much time we can give him.
Sacking him after half a season is just mental. I'd give him out the season and then the next. If we're still out of the top 4 and fail to impact Europe completely, then I'd say he must go. Ferguson at least had to build up a team from scratch. Moyes inherited the freaking Champions. There has to be a boundary for how much time we can give him.
80%. We have a very vocal, very negative minority
80% don't think he should be sacked now, which says nothing of the likely 90% who think he's doing a shit job.
Yep, I'm one of them, I don't want him sacked but I wish we never signed him.
I'm sure another poll asking whether or not he should have been given the job will yield that a majority never wanted him.
That has already been proven to be true. Still, it would be wrong to ditch him now, he needs a fair go.
I agree. A full season should be the minimum, which would be an improvement over the likes of Chelsea and Spurs.
Don't want him sacked now as its pointless doing so.
If it continues this way, he will be thrown out on his ear come the end of the season
If it continues this way, he will be thrown out on his ear come the end of the season
Yes, but it does say something about the many many posts calling for Moyes head.
Those are obviously in the minority compared to those questioning whether he's the right man or not.
I'd give him the whole of this season at the very least. If we are going really bad sack him then, though if he has steadied the ship and things look like they could start to improve, give him another season.
In the heat of the moment - it was Moyes out for me but now when I am a bit calmer I say he should get about 10-11 months from now on. There are many reasons for letting him go before but my reasons for those 10-11 months are...
1) He deserve to be given some time to get his thoughts/ideas through - at least a full season
2) I don't really want us to be another Chelsea/City where anything but winning means the sack - Ferguson should have taught us that.
3) It is difficult to shop in January - and if it is true as some sources indicate, that Moyes have pinpointed some players from the top shelf - he should be given next summer to try to sign some of these. But then him and Woodward need to deliever both on and off the pitch.
4) He has done really well with some of the youngsters and that is one of few promising things this season (Welbeck and Januzaj)
So unless we get to be a lot worse than we are now - I say November next season. If we haven't improved dramatically, Moyes should be worried!
1) He deserve to be given some time to get his thoughts/ideas through - at least a full season
2) I don't really want us to be another Chelsea/City where anything but winning means the sack - Ferguson should have taught us that.
3) It is difficult to shop in January - and if it is true as some sources indicate, that Moyes have pinpointed some players from the top shelf - he should be given next summer to try to sign some of these. But then him and Woodward need to deliever both on and off the pitch.
4) He has done really well with some of the youngsters and that is one of few promising things this season (Welbeck and Januzaj)
So unless we get to be a lot worse than we are now - I say November next season. If we haven't improved dramatically, Moyes should be worried!
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