Moyes: Stick or Sack?

Moyes: Stick or Sack?

  • Stick

    Votes: 251 73.6%

  • Sack

    Votes: 90 26.4%
  • Total voters
    341
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jojojo said:
I almost created a history thread, but it would probably just turn into the same thread by yet another name.

So, a little bit about how we stuck with SAF. I won't promise perfect recollection of all the thoughts and emotions but I'll make the point - prior to us finally winning the League, SAF won his right to another season, each new year. Sometimes in an obvious way, like an improved League position or an FA Cup. Sometimes in ways that maybe only the closest watchers of the club would have understood - like the revision of the squad, the phasing out of the drinking culture, the resurgence of the youth team structure.

But that's the point. It wasn't blind faith, or the United way, that kept SAF in charge - initially it was the sense that we were making progress, and yes a vague idea that if he could win things with Aberdeen he could do it again with us. Later it was gratitude, and the knowledge that he had won things, that protected him.
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All true. But then "the United way" (which has become a derogatory term round here) has never been to sit idly by and let an incompetent fool go about his business for years, as though keeping him on the job is some kind of goal in itself. The idea is to give a competent man time to prove that he is right for the job. It's a matter of patience, not blind faith. If Moyes can't make progress in obvious and less obvious ways, then he must naturally face the consequences. I haven't come a cross a single United fan who isn't of this opinion.
 
Gladiator said:
The question is how much time should be given?
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Until he has been able to create his own team. In my opinion, that will take 2 years minumum, more likely around 3. And that's being tough, in reality as that's only a couple of transfer windows but a job like United isn't easy, so he has to do what he can in that time.
 
Eric'sCollar said:
Until he has been able to create his own team. In my opinion, that will take 2 years minumum, more likely around 3. And that's being tough, in reality as that's only a couple of transfer windows but a job like United isn't easy, so he has to do what he can in that time.
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But what if he creates a team full of Fellaini's, a team full of players not really up to United's level but we overspend on them anyway. It would take years to fix that.
 
Eric'sCollar said:
Until he has been able to create his own team. In my opinion, that will take 2 years minumum, more likely around 3. And that's being tough, in reality as that's only a couple of transfer windows but a job like United isn't easy, so he has to do what he can in that time.
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All the managers in the rest of the world have to make do with what they're handed and make minor changes...
 
Ixion said:
But what if he creates a team full of Fellaini's, a team full of players not really up to United's level but we overspend on them anyway. It would take years to fix that.
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Obviously there are a heap of variables but it's not as though he has dragged us into a relegation battle. Assess season 1 at the end of it and see if he improves in season 2, if he doesn't, well we get our answer.
 
Eric'sCollar said:
Until he has been able to create his own team. In my opinion, that will take 2 years minumum, more likely around 3. And that's being tough, in reality as that's only a couple of transfer windows but a job like United isn't easy, so he has to do what he can in that time.
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Every other manager has to make the players he's got perform well, before you trust him to get some more. Most managers have very few options when it comes to hiring and firing - they live with the budgetary and club constraints on that freedom. Why should Moyes be any different?

Because he's the chosen one. Yeah, well the squad are the chosen 25 and the coaches were the chosen backup team.

I'm not going to put an arbitrary number on it, like top 4 or out. Fifth, a League Cup and some good performances in the CL would be a good response and would show he was the right man, and so might something less that shows he's on the right track. Somewhere though he's got something to prove. SAF proved himself. Moyes has to do the same.
 
jojojo said:
Every other manager has to make the players he's got perform well, before you trust him to get some more. Most managers have very few options when it comes to hiring and firing - they live with the budgetary and club constraints on that freedom. Why should Moyes be any different?

Because he's the chosen one. Yeah, well the squad are the chosen 25 and the coaches were the chosen backup team.

I'm not going to put an arbitrary number on it, like top 4 or out. Fifth, a League Cup and some good performances in the CL would be a good response and would show he was the right man, and so might something less that shows he's on the right track. Somewhere though he's got something to prove. SAF proved himself. Moyes has to do the same.
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I'm not saying this season is a free pass for him, far from it. He needs to improve, no doubt. It's just one hell of a change, not just for him, but the staff (not just his but the previous ones too), the players, the board, the fans. We have to assess the big picture at the end of the season, not make judgements when emotions are running high after a few losses.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
All true. But then "the United way" (which has become a derogatory term round here) has never been to sit idly by and let an incompetent fool go about his business for years, as though keeping him on the job is some kind of goal in itself. The idea is to give a competent man time to prove that he is right for the job. It's a matter of patience, not blind faith. If Moyes can't make progress in obvious and less obvious ways, then he must naturally face the consequences. I haven't come a cross a single United fan who isn't of this opinion.
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Indeed, but that was the point I was trying to make. Yes, the club stuck with SAF, but not blindly, not on some vague principle that longevity is the key to success. He was in effect tested and retested each season before he'd proven enough that the majority of fans could look at a trophyless season or two and say: we trust him, he'll get it sorted.
 
His support is still at 70 plus per cent.I voted for him to stay, but it will be interesting if we fail to win in the next two games which is very possible.I hoped for some work on the squad because it is required urgently, and if we did something this month it will make summers business easier and it will get the rebuilding moving but the club seems to be unsure of what to do next and I really think Gill staying would have helped Dave out no end! We're currently up shit creak with the one paddle! I would fecking love Moyes to get it right btw!
 
When managers go to mediocre clubs, or clubs who have just become rich and can spend a lot of money to rebuild, I understand the idea is you need to give the manager time to build HIS team. But he's inherited a good (not great) team and there's no good enough excuse to how bad we've been so far. And it doesn't really make me want to see him make this team 'his own'.
 
jojojo said:
Indeed, but that was the point I was trying to make. Yes, the club stuck with SAF, but not blindly, not on some vague principle that longevity is the key to success. He was in effect tested and retested each season before he'd proven enough that the majority of fans could look at a trophyless season or two and say: we trust him, he'll get it sorted.
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Yessir - and Moyes must obviously be judged in a similar way. I was really just using your post as a starting point here - sorry about the possible confusion. The point is very simple: Those who are afraid we'll stick with Moyes out of blind faith have no reason to be - that isn't what we did with Fergie and it won't be what we do now. The man must deliver - of course he must. But what constitutes progress in the eyes of those who represent the so-called United Way, may not be identical to what the average, impatient fan regards as progress. The latter is the crux of the matter for me. Patience is not the same as blind faith.
 
Salfordlad70 said:
His support is still at 70 plus per cent.I voted for him to stay, but it will be interesting if we fail to win in the next two games which is very possible.!
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how much of that 70% actually have full confidence in him?

i support him in the ground, will sing his name, but would i be upset or sad if he was sacked today? no i wouldnt and im pretty sure alot of those 70% feel the same about him.

people are supporting him, just for the sake of it rather than actually thinking he is the right man for the job.
 
Moyes needs to make sure we finish in the top 4 if he wants more time. What players would come to us with no Champions League if?:
a) Our manager has never won anything and has just turned the champions into a midtable team
b) we play some of the most dull football in the league
c) we lose top players like Rooney, RVP, Vidic, De Gea
d) we have a backroom staff of unrenowed and unproven coaches like Round, Neville and Giggs
e) we continue to make derisory bids and refuse to pay extra agent fees.
If we are to embark on a rebuilding process all these factors will work against Moyes. Moyes without European football will only attract mediocre players and then ask for more time to intergrate his new players. Meanwhile all the club's main rivals will be simply making additions that will strengthen their position. If we miss the Champions league then we need a manager with a proven record of success to lead the rebuilding process. This whole giving the new manager time only works when there are signs of improvement but so far we have gone backwards in every aspect. Moyes inherited a good squad and only needed to add one decent midfielder whilst phasing out the ageing and underperforming players in the coming years. Now we are in a position were an overhaul of the squad is almost necessary.
 
I see the sack % has creeped up to 27% from about 19% earlier, guess more people are seeing sense now...
 
Cal? said:
I see the sack % has creeped up to 27% from about 19% earlier, guess more people are seeing sense now...
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It's been in the mid 70's pretty much all the time.

Sacked after 6 months ffs
 
Cal? said:
I see the sack % has creeped up to 27% from about 19% earlier, guess more people are seeing sense now...
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The Sunderland match, I suppose. Bad results will sway things for a few days. Put four past Swansea and it will be back to 19.
 
Amir said:
The Sunderland match, I suppose. Bad results will sway things for a few days. Put four past Swansea and it will be back to 19.
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Raoul said:
Conversely, lose to Swansea twice in a week and have another look.
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I think it would have changed more, too, if you could change your vote. But all the people who voted when the poll was first made are stuck with what they said. I imagine a good number will remain with their original choice, but some might have changed. So the increase from 19% to 27% just means that almost all of the new votes cast in the past few days have been for sacking him.
 
Count Orduck said:
I think it would have changed more, too, if you could change your vote. But all the people who voted when the poll was first made are stuck with what they said. I imagine a good number will remain with their original choice, but some might have changed. So the increase from 19% to 27% just means that almost all of the new votes cast in the past few days have been for sacking him.
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I think the new votes have been around 50/50 after the Sunderland game..

Still a big change.
 
I have been critical of other clubs for sacking a Manager after a few months as I believe they need at least 2 years to show what they can do.
He needs time to build his team, how long that will take I have no idea but he will need to buy well in the summer and show signs of improvement by this time next season.
We will also see what The Glazers are really made of in the next year as they need United to be successful or things will turn quickly against them.
My hope is Moyes will be able to identify good young players who are not just chasing money, as I don't think we can/ will compete with Real Madrid, Barcelona, City etc wages wise.
It wont do us any harm to go a couple of seasons without competing right at the top, in fact it might bring a bit of reality to some people.
I am not confident of things improving much this season but I would expect to see good signings and improvement come this time next year. If not then it might not end well for him.
 
If a manager can't manage even if he had quality players at his disposal, until he can build his own team with his own players, then it's pointless to appoint managers for national teams.

Also,
No11 said:
It wont do us any harm to go a couple of seasons without competing right at the top
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What?
 
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