Moyes: Stick or Sack?

[Comsmit]

Stick until the end of the season. If we're out the top four then he can do one. There isn't a single argument to the contrary. Wankers can rewrite the realities and pretend that "the squad isn't good enough" but it is without any shadow of doubt good enough to make top four. It should be in the mix of a strong title challenge. We have some cracking players, most of which are decimated by an old-fashioned, gutless system and coaching that has seen our football more like Stoke than Spain.

He has 6 months. Sacking his inexperienced, unproven chums in favour of some modern, 'continental' coaches to help with the passing and moving in training would be his best bet to turn things around. This is what determines a team's success, not clichéd bullshit like 'attitude, effort and motivation'.

But what if he makes the top four and the football is still tumescent? Would you still want him to stay on?

If it's an overhaul of the footballing identity and philosophy then surely a new manager needs to be introduced pronto and given "time" to implement necessary changes. As Balu mentioned, Van Gaal began the process of transforming Bayern into a football side that were comfortable in possession, passed the ball better and more creatively, and more importantly.....improved their off-the-ball movement. He also introduced the 4-2-3-1 system which they used for years (culminating in the treble last year) before Pep took over and started using 3-4-3, 4-3-3 etc.

Personally I don't think Moyes and his team are set-up to deliver this type of change. All they will look to do is make United organised and hard to beat, whilst relying on the attacking players to make things happen. They are not here to oversee a change in philosophy or freshen up the side with modern ideas. Moyes' tactical setup is a lot more rigid than Ferguson's, you only have to look at how he has turned Van Persie back into a classic number 9, whilst simultaneously starving him of the necessary service he requires.

 

[MoBeats]

I say stick till the end of the season, see where we are then. It was always going to be hard but that doesn't excuse us looking so fecking shit. If there was progress and we were just unlucky that's be one thing. But we are painful to watch right now.

 

[The Taurean]

Stick until the end of the season. If we're out the top four then he can do one. There isn't a single argument to the contrary. Wankers can rewrite the realities and pretend that "the squad isn't good enough" but it is without any shadow of doubt good enough to make top four. It should be in the mix of a strong title challenge. We have some cracking players, most of which are decimated by an old-fashioned, gutless system and coaching that has seen our football more like Stoke than Spain.

He has 6 months. Sacking his inexperienced, unproven chums in favour of some modern, 'continental' coaches to help with the passing and moving in training would be his best bet to turn things around. This is what determines a team's success, not clichéd bullshit like 'attitude, effort and motivation'.

What if the football improved and we are still outside top 4? Would you give him a chance to sign new players and build on for next season?

 

[Havak]

Stick for me, I don't want us to be a club that changes the manager every season. He is definitely staying until the end of the season, but I'd fear that if we didn't win a trophy and didn't finish in the top four, that might simply be 'not good enough' and his job would be at serious risk. I'm pretty sure that the minimum requirement for any manager coming in was to not finish outside of the top four or you've had it (and probably reach a cup final on top). The Glazer's aren't stupid, but I think winning the league was (or coming close) was in their expectations and obviously in most of the fans due to our recent history, when it probably shouldn't have been without serious investment in the squad.

I do want him to have a shot at this January transfer window and another Summer to see if he can put his stamp down on the side quick enough to please the owners and fans. But as long as we're in the Champions League, I'm more than happy with being like the Arsenal of recent times and slowly rebuilding over a few years, with no trophies, but consistently finishing in the top four. However, the big worry about giving Moyes this chance is that I honestly think we'd lose Rooney and that would be huge. We'd be going into future seasons with an ageing van Persie (if he even stays) and Welbeck/Hernandez who I just do not believe in enough to hold down a regular first-team centre forward place at United. I don't think there's anyone available who could come close to replacing what he does, unless his omission gave Kagawa a boost.

Long story short, if it were me, I'd keep him in the job until at least the end of November 2014, no matter how this season ends.

 

[Kag]

But what if he makes the top four and the football is still tumescent? Would you still want him to stay on?

If it's an overhaul of the footballing identity and philosophy then surely a new manager needs to be introduced pronto and given "time" to implement necessary changes. As Balu mentioned, Van Gaal began the process of transforming Bayern into a football side that were comfortable in possession, passed the ball better and more creatively, and more importantly.....improved their off-the-ball movement. He also introduced the 4-2-3-1 system which they used for years (culminating in the treble last year) before Pep took over and started using 3-4-3, 4-3-3 etc.

Personally I don't think Moyes and his team are set-up to deliver this type of change. All they will look to do is make United organised and hard to beat, whilst relying on the attacking players to make things happen. They are not here to oversee a change in philosophy or freshen up the side with modern ideas. Moyes' tactical setup is a lot more rigid than Ferguson's, you only have to look at how he has turned Van Persie back into a classic number 9, whilst simultaneously starving him of the necessary service he requires.

I completely agree with you. In truth, I don't think a coaching team of David Moyes, Steve Round and Phil Neville - yes guys, this is who is in charge of overseeing the football at one of the biggest sports clubs on the planet - will ever produce the kind of progressive football we all crave. We needed a change from Ferguson. It's why I've always maintained that the right man with the right philosophy could have taken a great squad and improved it by promoting more passing, movement and pressing all over the park. Ferguson was the daddy, but tactically all that relevant in his retirement? Not really. We all discuss players on here and I read the comment "he'd fit in so well at Arsenal" and I wince. Why can't they fit in here? Why aren't our players playing in such a way? I'll keep saying it 'til I'm blue, but inferior players at inferior clubs manage just fine.

All of the above, as well as your post, is why I think Moyes would do well with getting rid of his mates and bringing in people that can help him transform our style of play, and in turn, results. As for your question, it's a tough one. A part of me says he should get a big money backing in the market to see if things will change that way. That would be more fair on his part. But, the realistic side of me just can't see it making all that difference unless Moyes himself changes his ideas or his staff. We've seen more long balls, less passes, less completed passes, more crosses and less attacks through the centre than a dire footballing season under Ferguson. We have the least amount of attacks through the centre in the entire league. Everton, meanwhile, have more in pretty much all of those categories. I don't think that's a coincidence.

 

[Nighteyes]

The poll results are quite comprehensive. Overall looks like us fans have a lot of patience with Moyes. The shity fans wanted Pellegrini sacked after they lost to Sunderland

 

[Kag]

What if the football improved and we are still outside top 4? Would you give him a chance to sign new players and build on for next season?

Depends what it was like. I don't really know. On the face of things, I'd want him sacked the same night.

 

[Raoul]

What if the football improved and we are still outside top 4? Would you give him a chance to sign new players and build on for next season?

It would depend on how much it improved. If he roar back to life in the 2nd half and miss the CL by a point or two, then I would imagine most would want him to stay. Of course the odds of our magically playing well again are quite low.

 

[Adebesi]

The poll results are quite comprehensive. Overall looks like us fans have a lot of patience with Moyes. The shity fans wanted Pellegrini sacked after they lost to Sunderland

I expect changing managers can become a bit of a habit. You change a manager after 6 months, that puts added pressure on the next manager, who sees that if he doesnt get results fast, he will be out the door. That may also lead to short termism, a manager shying away from introducing youth or signing players with potential rather than the finished article, for fear of not delivering fast. Im not saying it definitely would. But if I was a manager being sounded out about the United job right now, I would conclude that if I was going to take this job on Id better not have a poor run of results or Ill be out the door. No bad thing, some might say, for it to be crystal clear that our current performance is unacceptable, but it is worth pointing out that it is a different thing to the long term project SAF was talking about in his farewell speech.

The poll might be a bit misleading because I expect a lot of the people who voted stick have the end of the season as their D Day. I would say that is still quite early, I would be looking to give the summer transfer window and the first half of next season as a minimum, not contingent on CL qualification. It would take more, like us finishing in the bottom half of the table for me to shift from that position.

 

[Nighteyes]

The poll might be a bit misleading because I expect a lot of the people who voted stick have the end of the season as their D Day. I would say that is still quite early, I would be looking to give the summer transfer window and the first half of next season as a minimum, not contingent on CL qualification. It would take more, like us finishing in the bottom half of the table for me to shift from that position.

I would agree with that. Give him the summer transfer window and see what he can do next season. If the results are still poor after that then we can start talking about sacking him but not before that.

This season is a write off from this point. I am expecting nothing

 

[Jaapster]

I don't want him sacked right now , but it depends ? How many more home defeats can some people stomach ? If city hammered us it could happen then . I have a lot of confidence in David moyes but I have a real problem with his staff , If we are in this same position just before Xmas , pot him .

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Except big improvement in football and results, surely? How can you expect "nothing"? Has Moyes lowered our expecting this much?

 

[Adebesi]

Having said all that, one thing that has been playing on my mind in the last 24 hours or so is something I think Mockney said, not sure what thread it was in, but to paraphrase it was basically maybe we as United fans fetishise the whole question of managerial longevity a bit too much. Clearly there is something good about giving a manager time, but clearly there is also a confirmation bias given that successful managers will be given more time than unsuccessful ones by definition. It isnt clear what the rewards are sticking with a "failing" manager (however that is measured), my feeling is it is so rare it is almost impossible to say with any certainty. But maybe having a succession of managers coming in and thinking quite short term, delivering success or not and then fecking off as soon as the going gets tough is not an inherently inferior arrangement. I doubt it would yield the same rewards in terms of bringing through youth etc as many on here profess to want, but it wouldnt kill it stone dead either. If we have a great academy and a transfer budget even a short term orientated manager would have an incentive to keep his eye on what was coming through the academy.

Im thinking out loud here, really, in that I do still want a manager who sticks around, even though I cant quantify how valuable that arrangement is. It just seems more dignified, somehow. I think that is it as much as anything: sacking Moyes now seems undignified to me. Having seen the way Chelsea and City conduct themselves with regards to their managers, I dont want us to go down that road. I dont want midtable obscurity either, but I feel one year and one ham-fisted summer transfer window, which may or may not have been Moyes' fault, is not enough of a chance, and I worry about the precedent it sets.

 

[Nighteyes]

Except big improvement in football and results, surely? How can you expect "nothing"? Has Moyes lowered our expecting this much?

An improvement in style and dropping of Valencia would certainly be welcome. This season is pretty much a write off though and even 4th place looks increasingly unlikely. If we don't finish 4th I don't particularly care where we finish

 

[Adebesi]

Except big improvement in football and results, surely? How can you expect "nothing"? Has Moyes lowered our expecting this much?

I have thrown around comments like "I expect nothing" plenty in the last couple of days but yes, I expect to see an improvement. But I would not be holding his job to ransom against that expectation. It would be encouraging of course, I want it. But I am not going to start calling for his head until we are not seeing an improvement on the other side of the summer transfer window.

 

[Revan]

The poll results are quite comprehensive. Overall looks like us fans have a lot of patience with Moyes. The shity fans wanted Pellegrini sacked after they lost to Sunderland

As Abedesi said, I think that most of the people who are on stick camp (including me) are staying stick only to the summer, and then decide based on the league finish and/or if we improve performances or not. I think that 90% or more of fans would be to stick with him next season if we get the fourth position, and more than 50% would say to stick with him for another season if the performances get improved but we still just miss for a point or two on top 4 finish.

But if we neither finish on top 4, the performances doesn't improve and in the end we are 5-10 points away from the fourth place, I think that the poll results in summer would be very different.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I have thrown around comments like "I expect nothing" plenty in the last couple of days but yes, I expect to see an improvement. But I would not be holding his job to ransom against that expectation. It would be encouraging of course, I want it. But I am not going to start calling for his head until we are not seeing an improvement on the other side of the summer transfer window.

Interesting. But do you think a potentially great manager can manage this squad to being mediocre all season and not finishing in the top 4? I can't imagine the ferguson's, guardiolas or mourinho' allowing that. They're simply too good. Wenger wouldn't allow it either. The way I see it, it should be "held to random" against expectation. Otherwise there is no merit involved. A manager can't just do "anything" and get a second season IMO. There has to be some reasonable minimum conditions to getting a second season. For me it is finishing in the top 4 and improving the style of football.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

An improvement in style and dropping of Valencia would certainly be welcome. This season is pretty much a write off though and even 4th place looks increasingly unlikely. If we don't finish 4th I don't particularly care where we finish

So you'd give him next season no matter what? What if we finish 7th or 8th and the football is still rubbish? Is such a manager even capable of being a top one. I'm not sure.

Like I said, I'd say 4th is the minimum aim. Or if not 4th, then a big improvement in the football from which you can tell where Moyes is taking this team in football terms as a team.

 

[Nighteyes]

So you'd give him next season no matter what? What if we finish 7th or 8th and the football is still rubbish? Is such a manager even capable of being a top one. I'm not sure.

Like I said, I'd say 4th is the minimum aim. Or if not 4th, then a big improvement in the football from which you can tell where Moyes is taking this team in football terms as a team.

Yes.

 

[Adebesi]

Interesting. But do you think a potentially great manager can manage this squad to being mediocre all season and not finishing in the top 4? I can't imagine the ferguson's, guardiolas or mourinho' allowing that. They're simply too good. Wenger wouldn't allow it either. The way I see it, it should be "held to random" against expectation. Otherwise there is no merit involved. A manager can't just do "anything" and get a second season IMO. There has to be some reasonable minimum conditions to getting a second season. For me it is finishing in the top 4 and improving the style of football.

Usually yes, of course merit is involved in the usual order of things. But for me coming in after SAF counts as special circumstances and so I would give more leeway. That really is the long and short of it. SAF was great and part of his greatness was built up over many years, it compounded, built up the fear people had of playing against us, the expectation we would score in the final seconds of games etc, these things become self fulfilling prophecies as a legend is built over time.

Put simply, having a manager for 27 years delivers unique stability that provided the foundation for so much of our recent success. But the flip side of that is, when you remove a manager of 27 years that is commensurately more destabilising than the exit of a usual manager. And that is just factoring in time, the fact everyone at United had only ever worked under SAF and probably felt demotivated when he left. Add to that the fact that when a manager usually goes it is because things have started to go wrong, which is advantageous to the incoming manager who is seen as part of the solution. What about when a manager retires at the top, and the manager coming in is battling against the perception that nothing should be changed because it is already working. So any changes you try to make are met with resistance and cause further losses to motivation. Those two factors taken together are quite unique. So that is why I am lowering my expectations for this season, why I feel this season should be judged by different standards to most. Why I feel people saying "you cant come in and take a championship winning squad and reduce it to this" are missing a crucial point. Or I am.

 

[Sarni]

Manager has teething issues in biggest job in footballing history shocker.

Give him time. I mean years.

He can't get years. He wouldn't get years at any other big club if he were doing as terribly as he has at United so far, we cannot keep pretending we're so much above everyone else forever. A season should suffice, if he cannot get more than 5th or 6th with this squad then he's not really capable of doing the job here.

Not winning the league is fine, finishing outside of Champions League spots with 70 points or less with this team after so many dire performances isn't.

 

[Sarni]

We just lost 4 games at Old Trafford in a month, none of them to a top 4 side. It's ridiculous by Hull standards to lose 4 time at home in a month, let alone United.

 

[Adebesi]

I have to say also, it feels quite strange for me to be in this position, given that I never actually wanted Moyes in the first place. My feeling is purely that once a decision is made it should be seen through.

This is what I said about Moyes back in March, I cant quote the post normally because the thread is locked.

Moyes doesn't feel right. It would be too much of a comedown. Going from SAF to Moyes would be like someone coming into your beautiful home in the middle of the night, dragging you out of bed, throwing you into a featureless cell with a bowl of gruel and slamming the door shut. Old Boy style.

So I get that people dont feel massively inspired by Moyes. I am hardly feeling overwhelmingly positive about the situation we are in. But we are where we are, SAF chose him for better or worse, and in light of that it seems to me he should be given a fair shot.

 

[Sarni]

Usually yes, of course merit is involved in the usual order of things. But for me coming in after SAF counts as special circumstances and so I would give more leeway. That really is the long and short of it. SAF was great and part of his greatness was built up over many years, it compounded, built up the fear people had of playing against us, the expectation we would score in the final seconds of games etc, these things become self fulfilling prophecies as a legend is built over time.

Put simply, having a manager for 27 years delivers unique stability that provided the foundation for so much of our recent success. But the flip side of that is, when you remove a manager of 27 years that is commensurately more destabilising than the exit of a usual manager. And that is just factoring in time, the fact everyone at United had only ever worked under SAF and probably felt demotivated when he left. Add to that the fact that when a manager usually goes it is because things have started to go wrong, which is advantageous to the incoming manager who is seen as part of the solution. What about when a manager retires at the top, and the manager coming in is battling against the perception that nothing should be changed because it is already working. So any changes you try to make are met with resistance and cause further losses to motivation. Those two factors taken together are quite unique. So that is why I am lowering my expectations for this season, why I feel this season should be judged by different standards to most. Why I feel people saying "you cant come in and take a championship winning squad and reduce it to this" are missing a crucial point. Or I am.

He's taken over a very good team and has had it perform at a level that wouldn't be acceptable at much smaller clubs at times. Let me put it this way - if you've been driving a Golf for a decade and then jumped into a fine Porsche then you might not necessarily get the grip of it immediately, you might struggle to adapt to a much faster car. You will be forgiven for not driving it at full speed around corners at a racing track. If you keep driving it at 40 mph hitting the side of the road every now and again it isn't acceptable though.

 

[Sir A1ex]

He's taken over a very good team and has had it perform at a level that wouldn't be acceptable at much smaller clubs at times. Let me put it this way - if you've been driving a Golf for a decade and then jumped into a fine Porsche then you might not necessarily get the grip of it immediately, you might struggle to adapt to a much faster car. You will be forgiven for not driving it at full speed around corners at a racing track. If you keep driving it at 40 mph hitting the side of the road every now and again it isn't acceptable though.

It's a nice analogy, but it doesn't really work. What does driving it slowly equate to, other than being a bit shit?

 

[Adebesi]

I knocked my Passat into a pillar in an underground car park just this Sunday. Not sure how I can apply that to the conversation at hand, it just seemed pertinent given your analogy.

 

[Hannibal]

We just lost 4 games at Old Trafford in a month, none of them to a top 4 side. It's ridiculous by Hull standards to lose 4 time at home in a month, let alone United.

Please don't remind me by putting it that way - 4 home losses in a month? Dang!!!

 

[Cling Bak]

I think based on Ferguson's experiences, whether you like it or not, he'll be given time. A proper amount of time.

I think we can finish outside the top four and be potless this season and he'll stay on. In fact I'm certain of that, barring him slagging off Busby and Ferguson in the process. The board, I believe, will act appropriately and realistically on all of this and as fans, we should be grateful that we have the class to do so.

On that basis, the fans need to be supportive and not turn into a bunch of Chelsea or Tottenham fans, booing and be the opposite of a 'supporter'. When Fergie asked for patience and to give him time, he didn't just mean to show support whilst we win everything. Remember, in late 2005, many fans wanted Ferguson out as well. "Finished" was one of many words used to describe the great man.

There's plenty to sort out, but the problems are not all Moyes' fault and I'm confidence someone of his experience, knowledge and work ethic can sort out what problems do exist.

 

[Sarni]

I knocked my Passat into a pillar in an underground car park just this Sunday. Not sure how I can apply that to the conversation at hand, it just seemed pertinent given your analogy.

I'm looking for a new car right now and this is also a possible solution here, as long as Moyes doesn't get us something incredibly shit.

 

[Sarni]

I think based on Ferguson's experiences, whether you like it or not, he'll be given time. A proper amount of time.

I think we can finish outside the top four and be potless this season and he'll stay on. In fact I'm certain of that, barring him slagging off Busby and Ferguson in the process. The board, I believe, will act appropriately and realistically on all of this and as fans, we should be grateful that we have the class to do so.

On that basis, the fans need to be supportive and not turn into a bunch of Chelsea or Tottenham fans, booing and be the opposite of a 'supporter'. When Fergie asked for patience and to give him time, he didn't just mean to show support whilst we win everything. Remember, in late 2005, many fans wanted Ferguson out as well. "Finished" was one of many words used to describe the great man.

There's plenty to sort out, but the problems are not all Moyes' fault and I'm confidence someone of his experience, knowledge and work ethic can sort out what problems do exist.

Who wanted Ferguson out in 2005? The man was a proven winner already and we knew we could trust him with rebuilding job. Same cannot be said about Moyes.

 

[Sarni]

Please don't remind me by putting it that way - 4 home losses in a month? Dang!!!

4 in a season in domestic competitions would probably feel weird under Ferguson unless it was against the genuinely top sides or after we've already won the title or something. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think we usually lost 2-3 games a season at Old Trafford in the last few seasons.

 

[pete_8]

Not all Moyes fault, I would give him the rest of this season and one transfer window, then if no better this time next season it might be time for him to move on. He has a tough job not made easier by our blundering dealings in the transfer market. Add to that injuries and alot of players form then it is somewhat understandable . The home form is a massive worry as is some of our defending. Not going to harp on about our midfield because we all know about the issues. Onwards and Upwards only. While he is manager we give our full support. Well that's my opinion

 

[Adebesi]

I'm looking for a new car right now and this is also a possible solution here, as long as Moyes doesn't get us something incredibly shit.

I sincerely hope your family are more forgiving of your teething problems with your new car. If you stall it a couple of times and your girlfriend / wife leaves you, your kids ridicule you for being a muppet and force you to drop them off round the corner from school for shame of being seen with you, and your work friends all turns their backs when they see you coming over, there will be a certain poetic justice in that, methinks. Please do keep us posted. If things are starting to get lonely we will always be here for you no matter what. Or, until the middle of next season at least.

 

[Cling Bak]

Who wanted Ferguson out in 2005? The man was a proven winner already and we knew we could trust him with rebuilding job. Same cannot be said about Moyes.

A lot of fans. I wasn't on this board then, but I used to venture onto several others and call a forum poster what you want, they were out in force. In fact, I'm sure if you hit the archives on here it would've been similar.

We got knocked out of Europe, were lying 6th or 7th in the table, Keane was ejected, took a couple of hammerings (Middlesbrough being one), "only" signed Park and VdS in the summer and after two seasons without the title as well as 04/05 finishing with nowt... Add the Glazers takeover and Fergie not coming out in public and criticising them (which obviously he was never going to do), fans were saying his time with us was up.

It's easy to say we knew we could trust Ferguson. It wasn't about trust when Arsenal went unbeaten and Mourinho's Chelsea were dominating. At the time, even the most ardent and optimistic of fans were asking questions. I certainly never wanted Fergie out, but I admit I was wondering what was going to happen.

 

[Sarni]

I sincerely hope your family are more forgiving of your teething problems with your new car. If you stall it a couple of times and your girlfriend / wife leaves you, your kids ridicule you for being a muppet and force you to drop them off round the corner from school for shame of being seen with you, and your work friends all turns their backs when they see you coming over, there will be a certain poetic justice in that, methinks. Please do keep us posted. If things are starting to get lonely we will always be here for you no matter what. Or, until the middle of next season at least.

If I crash it into a wall because I mistake brakes with acceleration I won't blame them if they have some grief.

 

[Adebesi]

A lot of fans. I wasn't on this board then, but I used to venture onto several others and call a forum poster what you want, they were out in force. In fact, I'm sure if you hit the archives on here it would've been similar.

We got knocked out of Europe, were lying 6th or 7th in the table, Keane was ejected, took a couple of hammerings (Middlesbrough being one), "only" signed Park and VdS in the summer and after two seasons without the title as well as 04/05 finishing with nowt... Add the Glazers takeover and Fergie not coming out in public and criticising them (which obviously he was never going to do), fans were saying his time with us was up.

It's easy to say we knew we could trust Ferguson. It wasn't about trust when Arsenal went unbeaten and Mourinho's Chelsea were dominating. At the time, even the most ardent and optimistic of fans were asking questions. I certainly never wanted Fergie out, but I admit I was wondering what was going to happen.

The shorthand for the phenomenon is "Sack Fergie Sell Giggs."

 

[Cling Bak]

The shorthand for the phenomenon is "Sack Fergie Sell Giggs."

Well put, that would've saved me a lot of time!

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I see where you're coming from adebesi. But in my opinion him getting a full season including two transfer windows with such a good squad does constitute a "good shot". That's where I guess our opinions differ.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yes.

Okay, agree to disagree then. Patience is given where you see potential. If a manager can't show any signs of his potential ability (if he has enough) over one full season where the expectations have been reduced to the bare minimum then I see no reason to stick by him. If we finish 5th or 6th with the football still poor, then were basing this potential on nothing really. If we finish 5th and see proper signs of some style of quality football coming together or taking shape with a footballing vision coming across, then I see some reason to justify another season because one could point to that to being a sign of the potential shown.

 

[Adebesi]

I see where you're coming from adebesi. But in my opinion him getting a full season including two transfer windows with such a good squad does constitute a "good shot". That's where I guess our opinions differ.

Yes. And also I wouldnt call it two transfer windows, though of course you are technically right. I could call the Jan transfer window more of a porthole than a window, and the transfer window he got last summer was painted shut. It sounds like I am making excuses but I have been saying this from the beginning, he needed a full year and then a transfer window after that before I would even start the counter in terms of judging him. I am probably being too kind, I wouldnt make a good businessman - I am not brutal enough. But I definitely agree about the squad, that is one thing people are making excuses for him about that I dont agree with. The squad needs a few additions but not the kind of wholesale invasive surgery some people are making out. Its a good squad, and one that will improve over time. People say it is aging, but I see a lot of youth in it that will improve in the coming seasons.