I could ask the same question. Why are people so quick to write him off? Have we forgotten about Jones/Rojo already? Okay Jones is still a sicknote, but the caf pretty much unanimously wrote off his career a while ago. Same with Rojo, we all thought he was a joke of a defender, and now he is one of the first names on the sheet for many, and is possibly even ahead of Bailly, at least in terms of consistency. I don't like the hive mind mentality that we sometimes have here. I think it's hard to say either way; I haven't heard of fellow professionals speak out against Shaw like they did against Januzaj. All we know is that Jose wants or expects more from him but I'm not going to question his professionalism or mentality just yet. I will judge him on the pitch like I did with Adnan and Memphis.
Mourinho: "Luke Shaw a long way behind" | Shaw: "I will fight to the last second"
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It's a bit bizarre that so many of our players has to be sidelined for months for having the wrong mindset. I'd take Shaw as a LB with his current mindset over Ashley Young and his abilities at LB every day of the week. And why does the press need to be informed about this? If the plan is to sell him then surely we'll get more money for him if he just shuts up for two more months.
He was dropped the season before his injury because he was over weight/out of shape. It's nothing new or anything that has just started after his injury.
Even the England manager commented on his lack of fitness way before his broken leg.
Or Darmian. I laugh that Jose rates him over Shaw, he could be pronounced legally dead and still be a better defender than that clown.
We've seen 3 players get the 'tough love' treatment from Jose this season: Martial, Shaw, and Mikhitaryan. I don't think it's a coincidence that Miki was the one who's really shown anything this season because he's the most veteran of the 3. Shaw and Martial, while adults, are still young and while should not be coddled, are being dragged over the coals needlessly.
I've felt for some time that Shaw is on the way out. He will be sold to another club in the PL and I think he will have a very good career. Best of luck to him.
Bizarre.
You realized, the journo asked question about Shaw omission from the matchday squad?
I am usually no fan either, but I think he's tried other things before and this is the final chance. Not long ago he said, some players need to be protected by not playing them.
Since you told the poster twice that he's wrong, let me tell you that you are wrong, too. Junk food would definitely be a problem, even if he trains like a maniac and isn't overweight. Nutrition is just as important as physical exercise to a professional football player. Your body works a lot less efficiently, if you just eat garbage. It affects your sleep, which then affects your recovery and your performances. Consuming too much sugar would cause a lack of concentration, which is also very important for a professional. There are various upsides to eating healthy for an athlete.
Baba Rahman is having a tough time with his old coach at Schalke as well. Filipe Luis couldn't replace Azpilicueta, who has been one of the best defenders in the league. During that season Ivanovic was playing very well, so there was no need to change Azpilicueta's position. Obviously you could ask, why they bought Filipe Luis in the fist place, but during that season, considering the back four was very consistent in terms of performances and game time, they pretty much played with Ivanovic - Terry - Cahill - Azpilicueta most of the time and it worked.
Former Southampton manager describes handling Shaw
“I’d only play him half an hour at a time in the Premier League,” Nigel Adkins told Sky Sports in May 2015. “I was maybe getting some questions asked of me but we knew Luke couldn’t play a full 90 minutes. He was still 17 and very young. He even struggled to play a full 90 minutes in the Under-18 team.
“We had to spend a lot of time looking after Luke because he was very young and there were the off-field things that go with that. We had to put a special group together just to help him develop his all-round lifestyle and give him an opportunity to deal with the situations that arose.”
Southampton's Luke Shaw slides in on Robin van Persie
You've got to wonder, what we are doing, when we are trying to sign a player. I really hope Mourinho changes our approach there. Asking youth coaches about his attitude is not the most difficult thing to do and we should be looking at how players respond to pressure and stress.
Difference here is that Pogba is probably with Ibrahimovic and Mata the fittest player in our squad.
Edit: And Valencia obviously.
You are comparing apples and oranges. Performances, injuries and work ethic (application) are 3 entirely different things.
- Injuries are unfortunate and not the fault of the player. So long as there's some chance of them to recover (and they are not too old and downhill), you always give them the benefit to do so, especially if they work their butt off to get back in.
- Performances can fluctuate, even for the best players. If the player has given enough signs of quality already you persevere with them and try to coax better performances from them, so long as they apply themselves and do whatever you ask as coach.
- Work ethic and application is entirely different though. These players are paid absolute fortunes and to be consistently pulled up on your application, work ethic and fitness levels by your manager/coaches is entirely unacceptable. To allow player A into the squad ahead of player B because he is more talented, while not pulling his weight in training is going to create a toxic atmosphere in the dressing room.
Working hard in training is the absolute minimum you should expect from a professional athlete paid millions in salary. This should never ever be negotiable for me.
It's not.
He could have just said he needs more time and skipped this stupid lecture about how he's not even close to Young or Darmian. It would also make more sense if he's about to sell him.
Quite true but no one wrote off Jones/Rojo because they didn't put in the work they just looked like they didn't have the talent, and the jury is still out really. Rojo has been fantastic in his work rate, consistency but he has been a whisker away from getting sent off 4-5 times this season.
When LVG said Shaw was unfit, I thought maybe it was just LVG tactics and he wasn't fit enough for him...then Hodgson backs it up and said also thought he needed to work on his fitness. He did that and got back in the team, fair play to him he was brilliant, but then has the terrible injury and now he is struggling to get back mentality and psychically.
It must be frustrating for Mourinho also, because he has a player who is very talented probably more so at LB than Young, Blind and Darmian but has not put the effort in.
* I agree that recently he has been the warrior that we expect or a typical JM type player in defence. I am judging him on the whole of the season that is why his handful of great games does not quite make him a starter for a top 3 side
**I mean on current season levels and would they make the starting 11 for a top 3 side. I think he is one of those players that could hit the "WC" levels but has not yet.I don't mean he would be a bench player for us (if that makes sense)
As much as possibly I am trying to analyse the current state of play and current performance levels because we can't make a judgment on why we are where we are with any talk of the possible potential for player A, B or C.
I agree also with your opinion on some players are not doing everything in their power to win either. I think that it may not be all of them but definitely enough of them to make the team lopsided in that sense.
Well, we do. We owe him our full support and some patience. That does not mean to say we aren't already doing that, but we do owe it to our employees to protect their interests.
Shaw is good enough to play for us. We spent a lot of money on him for that very reason. For one major reason we know about he has yet to get going. There may be other reasons for that, too, but hopefully we're trying to deal with those.
How is somebody not doing enough in training, and not better when playing should have been ahead of someone who work his ass in training, and doing well with his limited game time?
You know Shaw is gonna be sold? How he needs more time worked in this case which the media tried to ask about exclusion of England international? They want to ask why he is not playing. Saying he's training well but not given chance, would it help the situation? Do you realize how many times Shaw questions keep being asked?
The list of players we need gets bigger and bigger. I wonder when we'll see the end of the tunnel
He is wrong when he said he was fat, he wasn't. And the second part wasn't serious, the Ashley Cole part was supposed to make it obvious.
You'd like to think that we don't plan on selling him given these comments. Otherwise, I think they would be quite unfair.
I'm not privy to what Shaw does at training, or when he's at home, but I do think his last performance was fairly impressive given his lack of games - and I thought this nonsense was just about over. It seems that for what must be the third time this season, we're back at square one.
On the other hand, Mourinho isn't the first manager to have had issues with Shaw's approach to training and there has to be some merit to what he's saying.
I'm not privy to what Shaw does at training, or when he's at home, but I do think his last performance was fairly impressive given his lack of games - and I thought this nonsense was just about over. It seems that for what must be the third time this season, we're back at square one.
On the other hand, Mourinho isn't the first manager to have had issues with Shaw's approach to training and there has to be some merit to what he's saying.
As with with any employer/employee relationship, we don't owe any of our players anything if they are not training or performing up to standard. If the team as a whole is being held back because a particular player or players are not pulling their weight relative to the standards set by the manager then they have to be counseled (you could argue that's what this is). If that doesn't work then the player gets sold and replaced by one who can meet the manager's standard.
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This is what worries me as well. I actually think Mourinho signed some good players this summer but it really is baffling how on Earth we still have so many weaknesses in our squad. We really have bought extremely poor in recent years. When I see the likes of Dortmund continuously picking up quality young players for often little money, it drives me to insanity. We have some piss poor scouts at the moment.
I totally agree. Hard work is a minimum that you can demand from a player. The fact that 3 managers have questioned his commitment says it all for me.
Dortmund may look exciting and all, but they're not really challenging Bayern. Their players may not get as much pressure to perform. They may one day exposed moving to bigger clubs for all we know. So that shouldn't bother you so much. I don't think it's about scouts neither, again just different clubs with different ambitions having different profile for their recruitment. Sometimes it's just players' own decision too (O.Dembele, Gabriel Jesus, Kante )
Agree that we spend silly money after SAF's retirement, but didn't address our weakness.
He's not fit at the moment.
I agree. I was simply disagreeing with the suggestion that we owe our players nothing.
I do agree with you about Dortmund getting some quality young players although doing this is more difficult at United. But can we do that? We want improvement straight away so difficult to take a punt with so many young players who will be inconsistent. I like you am a big fan of youth and I would like us to really properly scout young players and sign up and coming rather than splash out on all ready established mega stars. You can see we have not got a first 11 that actually plays as a team. Jose will not buy young players and wait for them to flourish. He wants instant success. I do like Jose but I have reservations about his treatment of youth (Martial, Rashford and Shaw)and investment in it.
Or maybe we don't focus on other leagues too much. Dortmund this season have made 47 points in 26 games, ManUtd have made 53 points in 28 games.
So we should hang around and resign him at 40 so he is in the shape we want?
Luke shaw will come out of this just fine, He aint going anywhere , You need 2 players for every position,
Oh yes I'm sure Fergie was like that with all the players. Absolutely.
They lost Mhikitaryan Hummels and Gundogan, arguably three key players. That's their main problem, they need to adapt every year and accept the fact they lose key players on a yearly basis.
Thing is, Adkins' comment doesn't make much sense.
"I was maybe getting some questions asked of me but we knew Luke couldn’t play a full 90 minutes. He was still 17 and very young. He even struggled to play a full 90 minutes in the Under-18 team."
Look at his playing stats that season: http://www.transfermarkt.com/luke-shaw/leistungsdaten/spieler/183288/plus/0?saison=2012
Played 90 minutes frequently and under Poch he continued to be a regular.
So? Every player gets injured from time to time. Pogba is hardly injured most of the time, as is Mata. Pogba played a tournament last summer, didn't have any preseason and played almost every single game he was available for us. They've played a lot more football than Shaw. Shaw's injury was obviously awful for him, but Valencia came back from something similar and as I said is one of the fittest members of a our team. If he can't get over that injury mentally, he either needs help or should stop playing football, as harsh as that might sound. The risk of injury is always going to be there.
Oh, I agree that he isn't fat, but if he isn't eating the right things, then it definitely aids to him being not fit and feeling fatigued more quickly.
It's strange. Normally you could write anyone off under the guise of 'not his type of player', but we know for sure that Mourinho wanted to sign him at Chelsea. So it's either that he learned something about the player's attitude subsequently (which is entirely possible), or that he is being petty over a rejection.
I've always been one to argue in favor of giving a manager the benefit of the doubt, but I'm ashamed to admit that with Jose I don't feel the latter isn't a possibility. His career is riddled with evidence of puerility.
It's a sad state of affairs when you can't trust your manager on an issue like this, but that's how I feel. I also find this kind of cultish vehemence with which people are being urged to conform to 'confidence' - creepy.
I've always been one to argue in favor of giving a manager the benefit of the doubt, but I'm ashamed to admit that with Jose I don't feel the latter isn't a possibility. His career is riddled with evidence of puerility.
It's a sad state of affairs when you can't trust your manager on an issue like this, but that's how I feel. I also find this kind of cultish vehemence with which people are being urged to conform to 'confidence' - creepy.
A couple of reasons. Firstly, a lot of people did write of Rojo and still would Jones, but there haven't been repeated issues or stories surfacing with the commitment or general fitness levels of either. Thinking a player isn't good enough and reading that a player can't be arsed to be are two different things.
If it was just media speculation then you can dismiss it as just that, but there's direct quotes from three different managers who've managed Shaw, and then suggestions that the only other two managers who managed him, had the same concerns. There was his brother's stupid rant on twitter. It's well beyond just speculative guesswork.
You have all that, weighed up against the idea that Jose has an agenda against him for no reason, or genuinely thinks Darmian is a better left back than him.
There's just no getting around that the problem is with Luke Shaw...and at the end of the day he's not in a different boat to any other player who fans or the media criticise. If he got his act together and demonstrated he was good enough, he would be fine, and fans would be back on his side.
He's not a sympathy case...he's actually FAR more deserving of criticism than a player who just gets slagged off for being perceived as rubbish.
The problem is if you select a player who's attitude or fitness stinks, ahead of other players...what does that tell the rest of the squad? Don't bother to work hard because it wont make a difference to whether you're picked anyway? Luke Shaw isn't Messy or Ronaldo. He's nowhere near good enough to be afforded a privilege like that without it creating big problems.
We're a club that routinely spend £30m+ on players without even bothering to scout them it seems, so I doubt we're that concerned with how much we'd get for him. Not that I don't agree this is silly but it just seems to be how the club works now.
Don't they have too many wonderkids who should be making them win more points?
RB Leipzig are just a promoted side, Hoffenheim also lost Volland.
I meant the second part, where Adkins is talking about the special group and off-field issues.
Tierney
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...nited-eye-Celtic-defender-Kieran-Tierney.html
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/...-draw-makes-reds-yearn-for-summer-446793.html
and Mendy
https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/ma...-mourinhos-patience-wears-thin-103858962.html
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/3232...-transfer-news-djibril-sidibe-benjamin-mendy/
On that particular point @Zarlak is our guide but I have been around Rugby players and I also read about Phelps diet and they don't eat or drink the right things.
I praised their ability for recruiting young quality players, what point are you trying to make? I wasn't arguing whether they are a good team or not, I stated they have quality scouts who seem to know which young players to sign, am I wrong? Why go on and argue about something I didn't even bring up in the first place.
Young Players are inconsistant like it or not, And it will never change. Who knows even Mendy will fail?
Their young players aren't taking them anywhere just like our youngsters.
He's more than likely finished here. He's behind Young and Darmian in the pecking order, with both of those players probably earmarked to leave. I give him a 1% chance of being here next season.
The fact is that aside from a few games last season, Shaw hasn't shown anything here, and has now been criticised for lack of professionalism by two managers.
It was a bad buy in hindsight.
Genuinely thought when we signed Shaw that was LB sorted for the next 5-7 years. Pretty disappointed with how everything's unraveled to be honest. I Actually think that was the beginning of the end for LVG when he got injured. I think LVG put a lot of stock in Shaw's attacking prowess down the left flank, and we looked super unbalanced after that.
Think the only way back now is if Darmian, Young and Blind all get injured at the same time and he gets a chance to play himself into a bit of form, but that's never going to happen.
Think the only way back now is if Darmian, Young and Blind all get injured at the same time and he gets a chance to play himself into a bit of form, but that's never going to happen.
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