Mourinho bringing on Fellaini to defend a lead

[EyeInTheSky]

This has finished his United career, so there's a silver lining there.

One can only hope...

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Whose fault is it for him being clumsy in the box?

Please don't upset the seething masses with your truth talk.

 

[Vashu]

A medium sized tree would be a better substitute. It would sort of be good at defending against aerial threats and it'd never give away any penalties for fouls or handballs inside the box...

 

[Zoo]

Spoiler

 

[dichinero]

Exactly.

I knew at the very minimum he would give away silly free kicks, which invites more pressure.

It's funny how people quickly translates this to hate. It's just who he is.

 

[iKeano]

A bit harsh isn't that? Comparing Fellaini with Suarez?

Who would you rather see in a Utd shirt?! A dirty rotten goal machine, or a dirty rotten clumsy tall Belgian?

So much hatred and vitriol against Fellaini in this thread, that you would think he purposefully ended somebody's career today. Yes, he committed a mistake today (although I am still not sure if that was a penalty). But it isn't his fault how the manager chooses to use him.
Anyway, the solution to our conundrum is not "No Fellaini". But it is to have defenders whom can be trusted with the physical, long-passes and crosses of the PL teams so that we cannot have to bring in reinforcements every time this happens. As pointed out above, we have lost goals late even when Fellaini was not on the pitch.

Like oh lets say Bailly, TFM, Tuanzebe? Lets not forget that of the 11 players on the pitch, Zlatan, Pogba, Jones, Darmian, Valencia, Rojo & Carrick are ALL OVER 6FOOT TALL.
There is no circumstance known to man where the introduction of Fellaini is beneficial to anything ever.

 

[Vashu]

c) Guardiola was able to clear out big-name, high earning players he didn't want (Hart, Mangala, Nasri, Bony), why wasn't Mourinho?

The profile of Guardiola's players that fit into his football philosophy differs from one of Mourinho's which is more universal. I did some background checks on Jose and he hasn't made sweeping changes either at Inter nor Real in his in his first seasons with them. At Inter there were practically no outgoing first-teamers and at Real Van der Vaart got sold along with 33 years old Raul and 34 Guti. When Jose went back to Chelsea for his second stint Moses got send on loan and same thing happened with Bertrand after half of that season in January.

 

[devilish]

Pogba/Smalling/Jones/Zlatan/Rojo/Carrick are all tall. I think we needed to bring on players capable of keeping the ball better - i.e anyone BUT Fellaini. Fellaini gives away too many needless fouls - which causes us to defend from headers even more.

Rojo and Jones are our CBs and both are meah on air.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Compared to Mkhitaryan who was taken off, Fellaini offers a lot more aerially from a deeper position and that was the threat we were trying to address. Hence it makes sense to use him as a substitute in that game at 85 mins. Not difficult to understand really. No one is saying or was expecting Fellaini to be the second coming of Vidic for those last 5 mins. He fecked up and you have your chance to say "I told you so", but that really isn't a knock on that decision.

I am not really convinced about his headers, I have seen him lose headers to shorter opponents quite easily.
Anyways, you ignored the part where I said he is prone to making fouls, losing possession. Hence not ideal to save the match.

 

[Roux]

Rojo and Jones are our CBs and both are meah on air.

Both coped pretty well in the air against Everton. I didn't think there was much of a threat in the air.

 

[devilish]

I am not really convinced about his headers, I have seen him lose headers to shorter opponents quite easily.
Anyways, you ignored the part where I said he is prone to making fouls, losing possession. Hence not ideal to save the match.

This squad is far from ideal

Jeez don't try and portray me as a supporter of this massive pile of crap. I never thought this guy was good enough for us and I got the bans to prove it

 

[devilish]

Both coped pretty well in the air against Everton. I didn't think there was much of a threat in the air.

They were becoming more direct by the minute as they got more and more desperate. In my opinion neither Jones or Rojo did too well against Everton especially the Argentinian who should have seen red pretty early in the game.

If you ask me, they are not very good defenders either. No wonder why Mou doesn't trust them very much

 

[kouroux]

See, i'm not so sure. Jose likes Fellaini for some reason so I think he will persist with him for a good while yet anyways.

I'm not so sure he will still like him after yesterday.

 

[poleglass red]

The worrying thing about Fellaini is that managers seem to like him. Moyes bought him, LVG didn't get rid of him and actually played him in a lot of games. Jose has come in and seemingly likes or maybe now liked him. He started him earlier in the season in games and even after the recent Arsenal game, Jose mentioned that Giroud would not have got that goal if Fellaini hadn't of been suspended for that game.He would most certainly have been introduced to that game as soon as Giroud came ito it. Hopefully Jose isn't stubborn enough to see that should be the big lad's last ever appearence in a UTD shirt. Get rid of him in Jan, at the very least send him out on loan.

 

[Roux]

They were becoming more direct by the minute as they got more and more desperate. In my opinion neither Jones or Rojo did too well against Everton especially the Argentinian who should have seen red pretty early in the game.

If you ask me, they are not very good defenders either. No wonder why Mou doesn't trust them very much

I thought both were excellent - Lukaku barely had a sniff. Had we won - both would have been lauded.
We should have kept the ball better imo - we couldn't string two passes together in the last 20mins. We keep the ball better and then there's no need to worry about the way they play - its as simple as that.

 

[red4ever 79]

Lukaku absolutely tore our cb's to shreds yesterday with his power. As for Fellaini no where near good enough for us. Clumsy useless and pathetic

 

[LungiDevil]

I am not really convinced about his headers, I have seen him lose headers to shorter opponents quite easily.
Anyways, you ignored the part where I said he is prone to making fouls, losing possession. Hence not ideal to save the match.

You have seen him lose headers? Of course he has. Who hasn't?

Point is he was the best option we could have at that point for an aerial presence. Check the stats in the link below (since modified to an edit). He loses as many tackles as Schweinsteiger/Mkhitaryan (our realistic player options), while winning his fair share. Statistically, while he is more likely to commit a foul than Schweini or Mkhi, he is much more suited than them to an aerial threat.That was precisely the point. What is also interesting is Fellaini has more fouls than tackles lost (?!). I can only suspect he commits them as he is tackled or off the ball.

The situation in the match was where Everton were clearly looking to get in more crosses in the dying minutes. The sub was not about possession, control or winning the ball back. The logic is he is more likely to find himself clearing a cross rather than 1-1 with a defender in the box or just outside and hence the sub is still justified. The sub was more likely to be a good one, or at least not as crappy as the cafe is making it out to be.

Fellaini is not absolved of the blame, mind you, but Mourinho made the right call in the scope of the game. It blew up in the worst way, I agree. But please let's not pretend that this was horrible. Some of youse have selective memory from Fergie era and complete amnesia about what happened under LvG. This is my last post on this as I don't intend to spend anymore of my precious 5 posts on this dead horse.

Edit: I made a nice Squawka link comparing Schweini, Mkhi and Fellaini with headers won, headers won%, tackles won, tackles lost and fouls committed. Only to find out I don't have enough likes to post it. Sigh.

Point is Fellaini wins 51% headers, while Schweini wins 41% and Mkhi wins 34% (4 v 1 v .8) in absolute numbers. Fellaini and Mkhi lose 2.6 tackles/90 min while Schweini loses 3.22. So the argument that he wasn't the best tackler available doesn't hold water.

Fellaini commits 2.78 fouls per 90 while Schweini and Mkhi commit 1.42 and 1.85 respectively. Like I said, some of those fouls are going to be off the ball and as he loses possession. While this is an issue, our goal in the last five was not to regain control/possession (tough given the momentum of game play) but repel the opposition attacks (again not for 20 mins or something, but just 5 mins+ extra).

 

[devilish]

I thought both were excellent - Lukaku barely had a sniff. Had we won - both would have been lauded.
We should have kept the ball better imo - we couldn't string two passes together in the last 20mins. We keep the ball better and then there's no need to worry about the way they play - its as simple as that.

Not really. Considering the opposition they should have done far better. If that defense had to meet a top opposition side then they will end up skinned alive

 

[Roux]

Not really. Considering the opposition they should have done far better. If that defense had to meet a top opposition side then they will end up skinned alive

Far better with what? They were both good in the air and didn't make many mistakes. Sure Rojo could have seen Red, but that's the only thing i can fault him for - but that didn't happen. Talking about other opposition is irrelevant to this discussion - we are talking about this game, and they both played well.

 

[Giant Midget]

Ibra had Messi/Ronaldo-like numbers. If they came to United, would you not be expecting the same? I would.

Ibra has 45 goals in 50 matches in 2016. 10 of them are at United which is pretty decent. But I want him to score more than one goal. He used to be scoring hat tricks and I'm not talking about Ligue 1, he's done it in the Champions League which is the highest calibre in club football.

I still think he's our best player by the way. But it's frustrating cause all the things you would expect him to do right (finishing, heading, scoring great goals), he's been relatively poor at. And the question marks most people had about him were his age and how he would cope with the Premier League. He suits the league. If he finished all his chances, he would be at around 20 goals by now. So frustrating.

I'm glad we have him for another season cause I think next season will define him as a United player.

Messi and Ronaldo get their 50 goals in all competitions. You're asking him to score 50 just in the league.

And Ibra only has had those kind of numbers at PSG, so you have to take into account the weaker playing level of the league. He's only scored more than 30 goals a season once in his career outside of PSG.

 

[VP89]

Far better with what? They were both good in the air and didn't make many mistakes. Sure Rojo could have seen Red, but that's the only thing i can fault him for - but that didn't happen. Talking about other opposition is irrelevant to this discussion - we are talking about this game, and they both played well.

Rojo got outmuscled by Lukaku on various occasions. That 2 foot challenge is also quite a big thing to just ignore too. It certainly wasn't a "good" game by Rojo - Everton just didn't test us in the box enough. In the buildup play however, he was rash and often caught out.

 

[roykeane19]

When Fellaini was coming on, I told my friend, now that Felainis coming on , we`ll probably concede, as we usually lose our midfield shape, and everyhing just goes tits up, a few minutes later I was proved right

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Rojo got outmuscled by Lukaku on various occasions. That 2 foot challenge is also quite a big thing to just ignore too. It certainly wasn't a "good" game by Rojo - Everton just didn't test us in the box enough. In the buildup play however, he was rash and often caught out.[/QUOT

He'd outmuscle most people. You have to accept that

You just need to be clever against him, as he's a bit thick, which I thought our defence was

 

[Roux]

Rojo got outmuscled by Lukaku on various occasions. That 2 foot challenge is also quite a big thing to just ignore too. It certainly wasn't a "good" game by Rojo - Everton just didn't test us in the box enough. In the buildup play however, he was rash and often caught out.

He won his share of duels too - which is good against a player like Lukaku. i acknowledged the two footed tackled - but he got let off, other than that he did well imo.

 

[SteveTheRed]

I'd much prefer to see Fosu-Mensah coming on in that last 10 minutes. Or Blind/Bailly and move Jones into CDM. So many different choices.

I think Mourinho made an error choosing Fellaini and his defence is Everton were playing direct...no they weren't. We needed to stop the crosses from happening not the headers.

 

[ryansgirl]

I'd much prefer to see Fosu-Mensah coming on in that last 10 minutes. Or Blind/Bailly and move Jones into CDM. So many different choices.

I think Mourinho made an error choosing Fellaini and his defence is Everton were playing direct...no they weren't. We needed to stop the crosses from happening not the headers.

The crosses were happening because Mourinho decided our lads would dig in at Everton's end instead of focusing on their own attacking game.

This does not bode well for the rest of the season, and instead of the comments aimed at Fellaini who not so long ago was receiving praise here on the caf and in the media for some good games under Louis VG including his role in the FA Cup campaigns and victory, how about accepting the fact that Mourinho's tactics were dodgy. As for the nastiness directed against Fellaini who is liked by managers and team mates because he is a good bloke and gives his best, it is over the top from a few here.

 

[ryansgirl]

Apologies for the long rant but I couldn't help it

SAF’s last team was the weakest he ever had and reliant on the quality of his old guard. It could still win but it must be done by playing his way (the so called United way) with him and his people on the lead.

Moyes refused to be SAF’s puppet. He messed the whole system out by bringing in his men which include a 30m giant who was only good in a style of game that contrasts greatly to that of a top club (the so called Evertonisation of Manchester United). Moyes contribution lead to an exodus of the old guard who used to provide quality to the SAF’s side. Most of them were already old anyway.
LVG came to United with the thought that we didn’t know how to play football in the first place and that he’ll be the messiah who will bring football to Manchester United. His plan was simple. Make a clean sweep of what remained of all players from previous teams (those who remained were either too good like DDG or were tied with long contracts ex, Rooney, Young, Fellaini etc), and bring in players who match his philosophy most of whom part of his old guard (Bastian, Valdes, Depay, Blind). A small squad with the right philosophy is better than a bloated one with players who couldn’t play comprehends how ‘football’ is played, and let us face it, philosophy trumps anything this Neanderthal league can throw at him. Hence why LVG went for a small squad with its set of crappy defenders who couldn’t defend shite but could elegantly pass the ball (Mcfail, Rojo etc) and with some of the most boring football ever. Any dissidents were shown the door, including a player whom he brought in the first place and ended up his main assist man.

It turned out that LVG was wrong. The EPL is of a far higher quality then an ancient Bastian or some players who did well in Championship level football could handle. Also there was a reason why top quality managers, most of whom (unlike Dutch football) came from a football school who weren’t the Tottenham of international football (ie they actually won the world cup), had to adapt to bigger squads and a more direct and physical football. EPL football is tough and its breathtaking. There’s more than just 1 competitor so a top club’s campaign is more of a marathon then a sprint. Also most teams are happy to just sit deep and get a point from us.

Which lead us to our next manager a man who knows the EPL and who have good intentions but who is not completely immune of the arrogance previous managers had. Case in point is how he thought he could make a player out of the likes of Fellaini and Rojo + his stupidity in thinking he can keep Jones fit. That required divine intervention and last time I’ve checked Jose’s surname was Mourinho not de jesus dos santos. His commitment to keep Ibrahimovic for another years also show a slight tinge of nepotism which was common during SAF’s last years, LVG and Moyes.

So how do I assess this squad? Well it’s a mess. We’ve got wingers as full backs, fullbacks and midfielders as CBs, strikers and no 10s on the flanks and a washed up striker who wants to be in midfield because he simply can’t run anymore. Most of whom are on ridiculous salaries they won’t get anywhere else so expect them to cheat and sabotage anyone whose considering showing them the door. So no it is not a great side. It is barely a good one.

Speaking of washed up players its hilarious. If you had to take in consideration all the players we had playing for us in the past 4-5 years you’ll probably be able to build the best XI of the early 2000s. Valdes, Rio, Vidic, Bastian, Scholes, Giggs with Rooney and Ibra upfront. We’ve become the retiring home of players and when we don’t give them a silver service treatment (like for example putting somebody who spend most of last season following his wife playing tennis in the reserves or not allowing our binge drinker striker to play in midfield because he’s not a midfielder) hell comes loose, with tax evaders and former players/lousy managers/lousy coaches/lousy pundits pointing fingers at us for making their lives difficult rather than allowing these players to overstay in the same way we did with them. The funny thing (regarding the former) is that we’ve yet to see Bayern bidding for Bastian. Oh well they don’t like paying salaries to former players to ‘play’ football don’t they?

So no, we don’t have a good squad. This team lack quality, it lack spirit and it lack hunger.

Ha - I like your rant even if I don't agree with a few of the points!

Who cares if it's long? The posters on here who whinge about long posts often are the kinds of posters who think a lol icon, a 'feck off', or a narcissistic whinge about how nobody is allowed to have an opinion that differs from theirs and those that do should be censored etc, are 'worthwhile' posts.

BTW - who is the player who followed his tennis player partner?

 

[Red Dreams]

he made an error bringing on Fellani. simple.
still. that numbskull need not have fouled him.

we threw away 2 points.

 

[VP89]

He won his share of duels too - which is good against a player like Lukaku. i acknowledged the two footed tackled - but he got let off, other than that he did well imo.

I don't know how a centre back can be classed as "doing well" when he won less than half the duels against Lukaku and should have been off in the first 20 mins.

I'd have been more comfortable seeing Blind play, who is a bit more smart in handling tough players rather than charging in and getting turned/outmuscled.

 

[Roux]

I don't know how a centre back can be classed as "doing well" when he won less than half the duels against Lukaku and should have been off in the first 20 mins.

I'd have been more comfortable seeing Blind play, who is a bit more smart in handling tough players rather than charging in and getting turned/outmuscled.

73% of aerial duels he won according to whoscored- mainly in the area Lukaku was occupying.

 

[arthurka]

http://www.thesportbible.com/footba...of-marouane-fellaini-being-bollocks-20161205#

 

[Murray3007]

sure everyone would agree it was a pointless sub, if Bailly is on the bench must mean he is ready so surely would have been better to bring him on and tell him just to mark Lukkaku, thought both the CB's played pretty well yesterday especially Jones, Rojo should have been sent off but we have had worst tackles then that go unpunished this season so finally a bit going in our favour. hopefully Jose now see's he cant trust Fellaini and there is no real need to keep him here.

 

[ghagua]

We were defending the entire 2nd half as if we were defending a 2 goal lead vs Barca. fecking cowardly.

Absolutely. It also did not help that our 3 midfielders played like absolute p*****s. They simply could not get hold of the ball or retain it for more than 2 passes.

 

[devilish]

Ha - I like your rant even if I don't agree with a few of the points!

Who cares if it's long? The posters on here who whinge about long posts often are the kinds of posters who think a lol icon, a 'feck off', or a narcissistic whinge about how nobody is allowed to have an opinion that differs from theirs and those that do should be censored etc, are 'worthwhile' posts.

BTW - who is the player who followed his tennis player partner?

Bastian

 

[redflair]

He brought him on because of sentimental reasons: to give Marouane the chance to be a 'winner' against his former club.

A manager's bond with his players - even fairweather ones - is stronger than we think. Look at how he agnosises over Memphis and a few others, saying he's desperately sad that they're not getting a chance.

He just saw that the big fella was gagging to get on, the game was going sort of okay (1-0), and so he buckled...we could all see what would happen next.

 

[VP89]

73% of aerial duels he won according to whoscored- mainly in the area Lukaku was occupying.

Pogba was man-marking Lukaku from most the long punts. Rojo rarely had to come in and beat Lukaku in the air the whole game. It was more the balls driven into him at no higher than chest height that Rojo struggled with. He got turned on one or two moments.

 

[Hugh Jass]

Yep same. We were the better team until we decided to sit back. Everton's problem all game was getting any sort of attack going, since their CBs hoofed the entire game. So what is Mourinho's genius idea? To sit back and invite pressure and oh what a surprise we concede. He's done as a manager at this level.

Absolute nonsense.

 

[MILLHILLMANC]

Agree with this but I think Rojo has been one of our best players this season since coming in.

That'll all change when he gives away a penalty and the Caf turn on him again though.

But he's crap. Hes a classic West Ham

Apologies for the long rant but I couldn't help it

SAF’s last team was the weakest he ever had and reliant on the quality of his old guard. It could still win but it must be done by playing his way (the so called United way) with him and his people on the lead.

Moyes refused to be SAF’s puppet. He messed the whole system out by bringing in his men which include a 30m giant who was only good in a style of game that contrasts greatly to that of a top club (the so called Evertonisation of Manchester United). Moyes contribution lead to an exodus of the old guard who used to provide quality to the SAF’s side. Most of them were already old anyway.
LVG came to United with the thought that we didn’t know how to play football in the first place and that he’ll be the messiah who will bring football to Manchester United. His plan was simple. Make a clean sweep of what remained of all players from previous teams (those who remained were either too good like DDG or were tied with long contracts ex, Rooney, Young, Fellaini etc), and bring in players who match his philosophy most of whom part of his old guard (Bastian, Valdes, Depay, Blind). A small squad with the right philosophy is better than a bloated one with players who couldn’t play comprehends how ‘football’ is played, and let us face it, philosophy trumps anything this Neanderthal league can throw at him. Hence why LVG went for a small squad with its set of crappy defenders who couldn’t defend shite but could elegantly pass the ball (Mcfail, Rojo etc) and with some of the most boring football ever. Any dissidents were shown the door, including a player whom he brought in the first place and ended up his main assist man.

It turned out that LVG was wrong. The EPL is of a far higher quality then an ancient Bastian or some players who did well in Championship level football could handle. Also there was a reason why top quality managers, most of whom (unlike Dutch football) came from a football school who weren’t the Tottenham of international football (ie they actually won the world cup), had to adapt to bigger squads and a more direct and physical football. EPL football is tough and its breathtaking. There’s more than just 1 competitor so a top club’s campaign is more of a marathon then a sprint. Also most teams are happy to just sit deep and get a point from us.

Which lead us to our next manager a man who knows the EPL and who have good intentions but who is not completely immune of the arrogance previous managers had. Case in point is how he thought he could make a player out of the likes of Fellaini and Rojo + his stupidity in thinking he can keep Jones fit. That required divine intervention and last time I’ve checked Jose’s surname was Mourinho not de jesus dos santos. His commitment to keep Ibrahimovic for another years also show a slight tinge of nepotism which was common during SAF’s last years, LVG and Moyes.

So how do I assess this squad? Well it’s a mess. We’ve got wingers as full backs, fullbacks and midfielders as CBs, strikers and no 10s on the flanks and a washed up striker who wants to be in midfield because he simply can’t run anymore. Most of whom are on ridiculous salaries they won’t get anywhere else so expect them to cheat and sabotage anyone whose considering showing them the door. So no it is not a great side. It is barely a good one.

Speaking of washed up players its hilarious. If you had to take in consideration all the players we had playing for us in the past 4-5 years you’ll probably be able to build the best XI of the early 2000s. Valdes, Rio, Vidic, Bastian, Scholes, Giggs with Rooney and Ibra upfront. We’ve become the retiring home of players and when we don’t give them a silver service treatment (like for example putting somebody who spend most of last season following his wife playing tennis in the reserves or not allowing our binge drinker striker to play in midfield because he’s not a midfielder) hell comes loose, with tax evaders and former players/lousy managers/lousy coaches/lousy pundits pointing fingers at us for making their lives difficult rather than allowing these players to overstay in the same way we did with them. The funny thing (regarding the former) is that we’ve yet to see Bayern bidding for Bastian. Oh well they don’t like paying salaries to former players to ‘play’ football don’t they?

So no, we don’t have a good squad. This team lack quality, it lack spirit and it lack hunger.

sorry devilish. Just seen this. I'll keep this succinct. I think you're completely wrong.

 

[MILLHILLMANC]

It depends on a lot of factors

a- Most managers have great egos. They think that the previous manager failed because they weren’t smart enough, therefore they will be able to outsmart them by taking the best out of those players. Sometimes it works (ex Conte at Chelsea). Sometimes it doesn’t.

b- Change is not without risk. When SAF took control, he made a clean sweep of the previous squad by showing the door to every drunkard he had. The result to that was devastating. It took us years to get back to previous form and then to dominate the EPL football. Some oldies can still recall the “"Three years of excuses and it's still crap ... ta-ra Fergie” banners. Its plausible to say that in today’s football SAF would have ended up sacked.

c- We happen to have a lot of sub-standard players who are on ridiculous salaries and on long contracts. Case in point is Fellaini. LVG placed him on the transfer market but the only clubs who were interested him were Napoli/AC Milan who wanted him on loan with a ridiculous minimum clause attached to him + with half of the salary paid by us. They basically demanded that we bend over backwards. Also why should the likes of Bastian, Rooney and co move to smaller clubs when they have a perfectly legal long term contract with us? Don’t forget that players get bonuses from image rights etc. A Manchester United player earns more then somebody playing with Sunderland.

d- Transfer deals are complex. You need time to sign top quality players and its impossible for clubs to sort all its issues in 1-2 transfer windows.

You telling me this team wouldn't be top 3

Ddg
Valencia jones/smalling bailly/blind Shaw

Mikhi. Carrick/Herrera pogba/schn mart/mata
Rooney/ibra

Rashford/mart/ibra


This squad has so much competition for places in a 4411 where players are played in their proper position and it's a balanced team. Your rants make you look spoilt as very few teams could have this depth of squad. Fergie would have it top 3.

 

[MounchesterUtd]

Three different managers and they've all taken a liking to Fellaini. It just doesn't make sense. He's either the most likeable guy of all time or he has some serious dirt on United.