You're completely right. Some if
but they ve spent a fortune on the squad. It is a top 3 squad that has been handsomely mismanaged with shit formations and players played out of position. Sick of people blaming the squad.
Mourinho bringing on Fellaini to defend a lead
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to celebrate rare back-to-back victories for Manchester United! They analyse the late win in the Europa League vs. Rangers and then try and find things to analyse in a pretty dour game vs. Fulham. They also chat about the latest Marcus Rashford news, and look at the latest transfer news.
Agree with this but I think Rojo has been one of our best players this season since coming in.
That'll all change when he gives away a penalty and the Caf turn on him again though.
It's not kneejerk when it's predictable
Why the bloody hell did Sabotouinho bring on Sabotini to spoil our rights for hard won points?!
Harsh jokes aside, Osman's words speak volumes. Wouldn't it have had been to a better effect if Mourinho had done 2 things differently in making changes earlier as well as introducing calm and experienced head of Schweinsteiger. I don't think our German player would have had so brainlessly given away the possesion with long hopeless punts which the rest of the team seemingly had practiced yesterday.
Harsh jokes aside, Osman's words speak volumes. Wouldn't it have had been to a better effect if Mourinho had done 2 things differently in making changes earlier as well as introducing calm and experienced head of Schweinsteiger. I don't think our German player would have had so brainlessly given away the possesion with long hopeless punts which the rest of the team seemingly had practiced yesterday.
This is correct.
I personally think Fellaini gets way more stick than he deserves but given the choice I'd sooner have Schneiderlin to bring on in these situations.
If we sell Morgan before we sell Fellaini that would be absurd.
If we sell Morgan before we sell Fellaini that would be absurd.
if he's ever given a chance to play for the club again, Moruinho should be sacked, I had enough of this bullshite, Fecking 5 years old kid knows, this is not the way, throwing in a palyer who can't move run, tackle, is only high but still suckes in the air. Fecking Moyes ruined our development more than you could imagine, buying Fellaini and extending to Rooney, pathetic decision to hire him but that doesn't excuse Mou from being idiot too, just get a grip Jose
They will be sold at the same time.
Thing is Morgan looks devoid of any confidence, so it would also make for a risky choice. Schweini was, is and will be the answer at least until January.
True, it's all an agenda. It isn't as if he was hideously bad last season, or anything.Agree with this but I think Rojo has been one of our best players this season since coming in.
That'll all change when he gives away a penalty and the Caf turn on him again though.
See, i'm not so sure. Jose likes Fellaini for some reason so I think he will persist with him for a good while yet anyways.
Bringing on Fellaini the Fouler to defend a lead makes as much sense as hosting a club for people wanting to lose weight in a cake shop.
He brought him on against West Ham last week as an attacking sub, and it just let to us being much shitter & him giving away free kicks and momentum so what to do with him?
When defending a lead and up against it, I'd much prefer to send on the likes of Bastian and Mata to hold the ball and calm us down.
When defending a lead and up against it, I'd much prefer to send on the likes of Bastian and Mata to hold the ball and calm us down.
Apologies for the long rant but I couldn't help it
SAF’s last team was the weakest he ever had and reliant on the quality of his old guard. It could still win but it must be done by playing his way (the so called United way) with him and his people on the lead.
Moyes refused to be SAF’s puppet. He messed the whole system out by bringing in his men which include a 30m giant who was only good in a style of game that contrasts greatly to that of a top club (the so called Evertonisation of Manchester United). Moyes contribution lead to an exodus of the old guard who used to provide quality to the SAF’s side. Most of them were already old anyway.
LVG came to United with the thought that we didn’t know how to play football in the first place and that he’ll be the messiah who will bring football to Manchester United. His plan was simple. Make a clean sweep of what remained of all players from previous teams (those who remained were either too good like DDG or were tied with long contracts ex, Rooney, Young, Fellaini etc), and bring in players who match his philosophy most of whom part of his old guard (Bastian, Valdes, Depay, Blind). A small squad with the right philosophy is better than a bloated one with players who couldn’t play comprehends how ‘football’ is played, and let us face it, philosophy trumps anything this Neanderthal league can throw at him. Hence why LVG went for a small squad with its set of crappy defenders who couldn’t defend shite but could elegantly pass the ball (Mcfail, Rojo etc) and with some of the most boring football ever. Any dissidents were shown the door, including a player whom he brought in the first place and ended up his main assist man.
It turned out that LVG was wrong. The EPL is of a far higher quality then an ancient Bastian or some players who did well in Championship level football could handle. Also there was a reason why top quality managers, most of whom (unlike Dutch football) came from a football school who weren’t the Tottenham of international football (ie they actually won the world cup), had to adapt to bigger squads and a more direct and physical football. EPL football is tough and its breathtaking. There’s more than just 1 competitor so a top club’s campaign is more of a marathon then a sprint. Also most teams are happy to just sit deep and get a point from us.
Which lead us to our next manager a man who knows the EPL and who have good intentions but who is not completely immune of the arrogance previous managers had. Case in point is how he thought he could make a player out of the likes of Fellaini and Rojo + his stupidity in thinking he can keep Jones fit. That required divine intervention and last time I’ve checked Jose’s surname was Mourinho not de jesus dos santos. His commitment to keep Ibrahimovic for another years also show a slight tinge of nepotism which was common during SAF’s last years, LVG and Moyes.
So how do I assess this squad? Well it’s a mess. We’ve got wingers as full backs, fullbacks and midfielders as CBs, strikers and no 10s on the flanks and a washed up striker who wants to be in midfield because he simply can’t run anymore. Most of whom are on ridiculous salaries they won’t get anywhere else so expect them to cheat and sabotage anyone whose considering showing them the door. So no it is not a great side. It is barely a good one.
Speaking of washed up players its hilarious. If you had to take in consideration all the players we had playing for us in the past 4-5 years you’ll probably be able to build the best XI of the early 2000s. Valdes, Rio, Vidic, Bastian, Scholes, Giggs with Rooney and Ibra upfront. We’ve become the retiring home of players and when we don’t give them a silver service treatment (like for example putting somebody who spend most of last season following his wife playing tennis in the reserves or not allowing our binge drinker striker to play in midfield because he’s not a midfielder) hell comes loose, with tax evaders and former players/lousy managers/lousy coaches/lousy pundits pointing fingers at us for making their lives difficult rather than allowing these players to overstay in the same way we did with them. The funny thing (regarding the former) is that we’ve yet to see Bayern bidding for Bastian. Oh well they don’t like paying salaries to former players to ‘play’ football don’t they?
So no, we don’t have a good squad. This team lack quality, it lack spirit and it lack hunger.
Agree with this but I think Rojo has been one of our best players this season since coming in.
That'll all change when he gives away a penalty and the Caf turn on him again though.
Players are humans and even the best of them can have a bad day in the office. In fact, as an old poster myself I still remember the say 'Form is temporary but quality is permanent' being used in the CAF to justify a bad game from lets say Scholes or Beckham. Unfortunately that rule also apply with substandard players in a roundabout way. They can pass from a good patch by stringing being on dazzling form 2 games in a row but soon enough they will return to their mediocrity.
So why did our manager not get rid of any of these players in the summer?
I don't understand this thread at all. Let's get some perspective please.
We were attacking and dominating the game until Everton had two injuries. So until about 70 mins in the game we were attacking and trying to score more goals. The fact that we didn't score is a different issue and not a lack of managerial courage. The injury stops broke the tempo of the game and their substitutions, particularly Deulofeu and Valencia, had a few good runs which made us sit back a bit.
Plus there were two headers one from a set piece (?) and another from Valencia (?) which seem to open us. We were not really getting the control back in the game (contrary to popular belief, you just don't switch on and off attacking play in a game like Everton away) and some point it is wise to reinforce and defend the lead.
In that regard having Rashford on who offers a bit of pace on counter, but can track back as well was a perfectly acceptable decision. At 85mins and I ask you to read again, at 85 mins bringing Fellaini to defend crosses and set pieces which seemed to be the MO of Everton was a fecking good decision. Only Fellaini had a brainfart. One can question the readiness of Fellaini for a game, but in general it was a perfectly acceptable sub.
People who wanted Mata on, what are you smoking? When would you have brought him on? At 60 mins we were still attacking and on the front foot (Herrera even hits the post). Around 70 mins, after all the injury breaks and substitution Everton have some runners on the pitch. You wan't Mata on at that time? Or at 60 mins when the team still seemed to be doing well going forward and break the rhythm? Or at 80 mins when they are presenting some aerial threat?
I get it that we want United to attack all 90 mins and say "attack is the best form of defence", but please yesterday at 80 mins was not time for that. As always our fecking downfall was not getting the insurance goal. If we did, we might not have even seen that spurt from everton towards the end.
We were attacking and dominating the game until Everton had two injuries. So until about 70 mins in the game we were attacking and trying to score more goals. The fact that we didn't score is a different issue and not a lack of managerial courage. The injury stops broke the tempo of the game and their substitutions, particularly Deulofeu and Valencia, had a few good runs which made us sit back a bit.
Plus there were two headers one from a set piece (?) and another from Valencia (?) which seem to open us. We were not really getting the control back in the game (contrary to popular belief, you just don't switch on and off attacking play in a game like Everton away) and some point it is wise to reinforce and defend the lead.
In that regard having Rashford on who offers a bit of pace on counter, but can track back as well was a perfectly acceptable decision. At 85mins and I ask you to read again, at 85 mins bringing Fellaini to defend crosses and set pieces which seemed to be the MO of Everton was a fecking good decision. Only Fellaini had a brainfart. One can question the readiness of Fellaini for a game, but in general it was a perfectly acceptable sub.
People who wanted Mata on, what are you smoking? When would you have brought him on? At 60 mins we were still attacking and on the front foot (Herrera even hits the post). Around 70 mins, after all the injury breaks and substitution Everton have some runners on the pitch. You wan't Mata on at that time? Or at 60 mins when the team still seemed to be doing well going forward and break the rhythm? Or at 80 mins when they are presenting some aerial threat?
I get it that we want United to attack all 90 mins and say "attack is the best form of defence", but please yesterday at 80 mins was not time for that. As always our fecking downfall was not getting the insurance goal. If we did, we might not have even seen that spurt from everton towards the end.
It would have been perfectly acceptable decision if Fellaini was good at defending, has a history of being good at winning headers regularly, tackling and getting rid of ball from difficult situations. It would have been very acceptable, if Fellaini does not have the tendency to make a foul from good number of tackles
If you think Fellaini has all these traits, then I think you have a complete different opinion about Fellaini and we should just agree to disagree.
It depends on a lot of factors
a- Most managers have great egos. They think that the previous manager failed because they weren’t smart enough, therefore they will be able to outsmart them by taking the best out of those players. Sometimes it works (ex Conte at Chelsea). Sometimes it doesn’t.
b- Change is not without risk. When SAF took control, he made a clean sweep of the previous squad by showing the door to every drunkard he had. The result to that was devastating. It took us years to get back to previous form and then to dominate the EPL football. Some oldies can still recall the “"Three years of excuses and it's still crap ... ta-ra Fergie” banners. Its plausible to say that in today’s football SAF would have ended up sacked.
c- We happen to have a lot of sub-standard players who are on ridiculous salaries and on long contracts. Case in point is Fellaini. LVG placed him on the transfer market but the only clubs who were interested him were Napoli/AC Milan who wanted him on loan with a ridiculous minimum clause attached to him + with half of the salary paid by us. They basically demanded that we bend over backwards. Also why should the likes of Bastian, Rooney and co move to smaller clubs when they have a perfectly legal long term contract with us? Don’t forget that players get bonuses from image rights etc. A Manchester United player earns more then somebody playing with Sunderland.
d- Transfer deals are complex. You need time to sign top quality players and its impossible for clubs to sort all its issues in 1-2 transfer windows.
He brings on Rashford as an attacking outlet then brings on Fellaini straight after. It doesn't even make sense at all. What was he trying to achieve? If you wanted to hold a 1 goal lead against a team who we were all over btw for 40min, why not bring on Bailey or Blind. I've said it before and I'll say it again. This José we brought in is a faulty José!
He was obviously trying to bring on Fellaini to deal with the inevitable long balls, but Fellaini is just a clumsy, idiot.
a) Seems most likely and if so was a Moyes-like failure to deal with issues in the squad which will lead to more problems down the line.
b) Bit worrying if you believe that these players are terrible but it's too much of a risk to replace them.
c) Guardiola was able to clear out big-name, high earning players he didn't want (Hart, Mangala, Nasri, Bony), why wasn't Mourinho?
d) Certainly would be difficult to clear out 10-12 players in one window but to not have shifted any deadwood seems extremely lax. Mourinho doesn't appear to have any interest in using Depay or Schneiderlin so why not get rid. It would at least have been progress in terms of fixing the squad.
When you have a player who is this clumsy and gives away countless silly fouls - the blame has to be on the manager. He chose to bring this type of player on.
Its quite simple really - Rashford was brought on to press their defence, Fellaini was brought on to deal with the high balls.
Press their defence when we were sitting back inviting all the pressure to ourselves? We were doing fine with "high banks" anyway. He is beginning to sound like LvG with all these height measurement statistics. The man was just clueless as he had been most of the season.
a- Most managers have that arrogance/confidence (they wouldn't be in the place they are now if they didn't). Unfortunately such arrogance might end up being exploited by players too. Managers who might bring changes might have to face a scenario were players would gang up and play badly to have him sacked and have another manager with a clean slate mentality appointed. We've seen that happening with both Moyes and LVG were players were thrilled to see them go and were leaks were constantly occuring to make the manager look bad
b- Well, its the nuke option. SAF had to do it because United resembed more of a pub and less of a professional football team. I bet Mourinho will end up pushing the red button too. There again, if a club ends up spending like 400m in 2 transfer windows then they will be expecting some sort of return. That's not always possible because even top quality players need time to settle down. Therefore any managing doing so end up in a bit of straight jacket were he simply have to deliver NOW. Hence why most manager would try to avoid to take that option
c- Shitty are owned by sheiks who throw their money around for the fun of it. We're still a business club. Also we've got far more deadweight on expensive salaries then they do
d- I think d is pretty linked to a (the manager's confidence in making the current team tick) + b (the nuke option) & the previous c (its difficult to get rid of substandard players on top salaries) and d (ie transfer deals take time and no one can add 12 players in one go). There again, I doubt that Mou will commit the same mistake twice
If you ask me we should really learn from previous mistakes
a- we need to stick to the manager. Players should stop thinking that if they don't like the manager, all they have to do is to perform badly and have him sacked few months later. The manager is there to stay and they either perform or else they will be kicked out
b- we have to appoint a quality DOF from outside the club. Hence he wont be baised (a Giggs will always have a soft spot to his former collegues) and can go toe to toe with the manager if he dares spending unreasonable amount of money on rubbish players because they happen to be his mates.
No pressing their defence so they wouldn't lump the ball forward anymore. Zlatan/Marial were not doing that in the last 20mins. He also would have taken some of the pressure off with his pace.
Mou needs to give his ego a rest.. Schweini should be introduced into these matches not Fellaini.. And he needs to stop keeping Zlatan and Pogba on for 90 min every game.
Please get you shit in act before the fans turn on you aswell and it will happen if you keep this shit up..
#Fellainiisntafootballplayerevenosmansaysso
Please get you shit in act before the fans turn on you aswell and it will happen if you keep this shit up..
#Fellainiisntafootballplayerevenosmansaysso
Its not that simple. LVG left behind a team of midgets. With Bailly and Smalling out, Fellaini is one of the very few players we've got whose decent in air.
I have nothing against Fellaini, but given the choice I'd make it so I can bring Fosu Mensah on when possible.
Regardless of what I think of Fellaini, there is no doubt the ref is more likely to call foul against him when in a physical tussle, been that way since he joined us.
Regardless of what I think of Fellaini, there is no doubt the ref is more likely to call foul against him when in a physical tussle, been that way since he joined us.
Captain Hindsights everywhere.
Why bring on our tallest player to help defend long balls?
Why bring on our tallest player to help defend long balls?
Why bring on the clumsiest player when we are sitting back, inviting pressure against a team with 2 strikers.Captain Hindsights everywhere.
Why bring on our tallest player to help defend long balls?
Osman on Fellaini: "He's always been clumsy like that. When he played for us we wanted him as far away from our box as possible."
I'm sure you foresaw that at the time.
Pogba/Smalling/Jones/Zlatan/Rojo/Carrick are all tall. I think we needed to bring on players capable of keeping the ball better - i.e anyone BUT Fellaini. Fellaini gives away too many needless fouls - which causes us to defend from headers even more.
Thats bull, as if they wouldn't want him back to defend a corner. Its hindsight. Dammed if you do, dammed if you dont. If Everton had scored from piling the ball in the box, Mou would have been criticised for not bring on Fellaini...
Fellaini should never come on for any reason, to defend or otherwise. He shouldn't be a United player. He should never have been bought. He's one of several dross players we need to replace ASAP.
I'm pretty sure most fans knew him coming on would lead to us conceding.Captain Hindsights everywhere.
Why bring on our tallest player to help defend long balls?
Compared to Mkhitaryan who was taken off, Fellaini offers a lot more aerially from a deeper position and that was the threat we were trying to address. Hence it makes sense to use him as a substitute in that game at 85 mins. Not difficult to understand really. No one is saying or was expecting Fellaini to be the second coming of Vidic for those last 5 mins. He fecked up and you have your chance to say "I told you so", but that really isn't a knock on that decision.
I can assure you that you don't need a crystal ball to predict that bringing on Fellaini under pressure is more likely to cause harm than good.
Exactly.
I knew at the very minimum he would give away silly free kicks, which invites more pressure.