I get your point but misrepresenting transfer fees is something I've always had a major gripe with, James cost exactly £15m, no reported figure for potential add ons.
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
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Because we had had just signed Bruno, Ziyech was signed in Feb for Chelsea.
Clearly, if you are been told by your CEO that there is good chance that we can get Sancho in the summer, you will not be allowed to sign another RW. Its not rocket science is it?
Well, thats how you improve, bringing players in.
We didnt get Sancho okay, but get another RW in then. You mention alot of numbers of players we have signed to bolster already strong teams.
Under Jose, were we strong? V Liverpool we started
DDG, Darmian, Bailly, Lindelof, Young, Dalot, Herrera, Matic, Rashford, Lingard Lukaku.
That team was not strong.
Have the press raised any questions over him or is it radio silence? I suppose that's one of the big issues with Arsenal, them getting embarrassed at home isn't even a story.
That is an appalling team!
£18m inc. add ons from a number of sources.
I agree though, although it doesn't help that papers like to inflate United's transfer fees + include wages to get those clicks. That said, given this is the Arteta thread - i saw a number of posters referencing Pepe as an expensive signing when I thought he was essentially costing £72m but over 5 years or something like that.
There is so much wrong with this post.
1) my example was hypothetical
2) no manager or board would bank on a transfer until the player has actually signed. If Ole was happy not looking at other targets because he thought Sancho was coming he's an idiot (we also know this isn't true as we looked at other players)
3) if the only way to improve was signing new players we'd have won the PL since SAF left.
4) we were a better team under Jose, that's why we won some trophies and came 2nd. Was it good enough given his spending and expectations, I'd argue no. I don't see how the starting XI of a random game versus Liverpool under Jose is relevant to my point about Ole being compared to Lampard. I think it's a very fair and non biased way to look at them both.
Yeah I agree - the trouble is, if the Arsenal forums are anything like this one then it seems to me that most supporters seem to think 'time' is maybe half a season or a couple of transfer windows.
I've seen enough from Arteta (and Ole) to think they deserve the change to keep rebuilding. Ole is now at the stage where he needs to get results, as I've said that elsewhere. We have spent enough money and had enough time to at least start hitting the 70pt+ mark, so that's minimum expectation for me this season.
For Arteta, I would say this season is a free pass, similar to how I gave Ole a pass last season. You will have to give a large number of games to players who are either very young or who aren't the level required and that will of course affect results.
The clock starts ticking for Arteta after the next summer window for me. Then you would expect as a minimum a proper challenge for top four (I don't see that happening this season)
It's how I would look at things as well, but fully agree, unfortunately the modern football fan doesn't think like this. You only have to look at the reactions after the Leipzig game then the Arsenal game for Ole, & the reactions for Arteta from last Sunday evening to this.
No manager should bank on a player I agree, but you cannot give up on signing a player because someone else is signing the alternative 8 months prior to the window.
We were a better team under Jose? I do not think so, the football under Jose was the worst I have ever seen.
Lampard got players he wanted in the positions he wanted, that is the difference.
Part of the problem for me stems from the old-fashioned “cult of the manager” that seems to prevail in British football, perhaps because historically we had great managers like Clough, SAF and Wenger who literally ran the club.
Nowadays, a good “manager” (usually Head Coach) is just one part of the puzzle. Klopp and Pep have enjoyed success as part of large teams overseen by world-class Sporting Directors. Bottom line, you can’t do it without the players and a manager is largely not responsible for incomings/outgoings in the modern game.
The number of people involved in making a modern football club a success is staggering, yet so many fans think you can change results or the direction of a club simply by changing the manager.
92nd!
This has just gone back round in a circle and isn't particularly interesting of a debate.
My sole point was that Ole and Lampard are a good comparison because they have both been backed and have similar qualities of squads. If you want to completely ignore last season (when Ole got players he wanted and Lampard didn't because of the ban) then that's your decision and I don't mind if you do or don't.
I personally think Arteta should be compared directly with Nuno, Ancelotti and Rodgers whereas Ole should have more pressure and expectation (as should Lampard) in making up the top four behind Liverpool and City.
What was your opinion on backing Aubameyang with a new bumper contract at 31? I know he's clearly your best player, and 30 isn't the damning milestone it once was.
All the same, I feel like Arteta's real test will be next season if he's still there and has a semi aging squad with Lacazette, Aubameyang and Willian all either 30 or well on the wrong side. Just wondering what the general consensus of Arsenal supporters is? There must have been a small part that thinks maybe for the long term future of the squad, cashing in while his stock was so high and reinvesting might have been smarter.
Will Arteta have the funds to replace that forward line with quality in a season or two?
Why should Arteta be compare with them ?
If you think Manutd have a good team because they spent money and got a good team.
Arsenal - Saka, WIllock, Nketiah all coming through like United with youngsters
Spending
17/18 - £137m
18/19 - £72m
19/20 - £144m
20/21 - £77m
Don't forget Big contracts to Ozil, Aubemayang. Partey, Willian are both over 200k a week.
Manutd
17/18 - £178m
18/19 - £74m
19/20 - £200m
19/20 - £70m
Arsenal have an attacking line worth up to £180m, United's attack is £80m
Jesus seen it all
He has won a cup and ahead of us in the league though with a weaker team in my opinion.
They play boring football just like us a lot though.
No chance hes a better coach. They are brutal. Fair enough he won a cup, but he could easily end up all he will ever do in his managerial career.
If he better because of hes ahead right now we see end of season. I just dont see it.
He more Moyes than Pep
Yeah but you're gutted we won on Saturday
No gutted we lost to this Arsenal side though. We should be doing better with our squad.
Well they are both underperforming this season. Probably both deserves to get sacked though, but not going to happen right now.
I guess to both credits it is going well in the cups. Negative defensive style maybe more suited for cup games.
Well hopefully Ole proves me wrong and actually win something and gets top 4. If he does he deserves to stay I think.
Same with Arteta I guess, but for them winning something and ending top 6 is fairly good for them with the squad they got.
I think we will finish above them again though, do you not?
I think we will, but not sure we will be above Leicester and Chelsea this time. They both look really good and more solid than last year.
Maybe ahead of City though since they have been worse than expected so far.
I guess with Aguero back they will start scoring a lot again though.
Leicester will fall away again, no doubt in my mind.
Firstly on the bolded part, let's please avoid any cherry picking. It'd be like me saying United's defence is worth triple (likely more) Arsenal's because Maguire + Shaw + AWB + Lindelof makes for some heavy spending but only two of them are actually Ole's signings. This isn't conducive to anything so I'd appreciate if we just discuss players actually signed by the managers in question and if we're comparing, we just compare the whole team not sections of it.
The reason he shouldn't be compared to Ole is because our squad overall is better and his signings are paltry compared to Ole and Lampard. Also don't bring big contracts into this when arguing against United - if there's one thing that's for sure it's that you'll find some huge contracts in our first team (Cavani, Pogba, DDG, Maguire, Rashford, Martial and then our biggest issue is we overpay our squad players as well like Lingard who is on 100k p/w according to the BBC and never plays). I guarantee you, if you want to use that as a factor, that it does not favour Ole. FYI I think it's pointless but you brought it up.
Arteta has signed: Partey, Gabriel, Mari and Runarsson & picked up Willian and Soares on a free. £77m on transfers.
Ole has signed: Maguire, AWB, James, Bruno, Telles, VdB, Diallo, Pellestri, Igahlo (loan) and Cavani (free) for £300m+
Hence why it's much fairer to compare Ole to Lampard who has signed a similar amount of players and spent about £260m & they've both had ample time to get their tactics into place.
OKay lets focus on their reign only.
Can you explain where you getting £300m from?
Obviously, Ole will have more spending because hes had more transfer windows. If you want to compare that, lets have a look at the players sold too.
We have sold over £85m worth of players too.
So how is it fairer to compare Arteta to Nuno or Rodgers when they have been there longer?
Arsenal get away with this all the time, they have spent money, they pay the big wages so I dont know where this narrative has come from that he shouldnt be compared to Ole and Frank.
No we don't play Boring football like they do. Our football is far more pleasing to eyes than whatever Arsenal play under Arteta.
Im not against giving Auba that bumper contract. Keeping him set a positive tone, that we are keeping our best players, & perhaps helped convince players like Gabriel & Partey to join. By the time his contract runs out, he'll be the same age is what Vardy is just now.
What I don't like, is convincing him to stay, & then playing him out of position. I could perhaps agree with that if we had a centre forward of note, that Auba can play off & dovetail with, but we don't.
That forward area must get looked at in the summer. Lacazette will have a year left on his contract, we need to actively be looking to move him on, he just doesn't suit what we are trying to do. We need to make a decision with where we want to play Auba. If we insist on playing him wide left, we need a striker with more all round game for the number 9, perhaps someone like Edouard of Celtic could fill that role? We'll also likely need to make a decision on Pepe.
We still have Martinelli, Nelson, Saka as youth wide options so not overly concerned about the aging forward line if we replace Laca adequately.
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I just did a quick calculation based off transfermarkt. I think it's actually EUR looking at it although I guess that also changes Arteta's total as well. Must be something like £280m for Ole & £69m for Arteta.
I'm not trying to give Arsenal a pass here, I genuinely just think their squad is very average although Arteta's acquisitions have made a tangible improvement. I do agree on the fact that Nuno and Rodgers have had more time to implement their plans and so, in truth, maybe they should also be held to a higher bar than Arteta as well.
Essentially, any manager who has had over a full season should really not be still waiting to implement their tactics (Nuno, Ole, Lampard, Rodgers, Ancelotti) are all in this boat but I would say United and Chelsea of those teams chasing the top two from last season still have the best all round squads and still have been signing the best players. For example, although it seems a questionable transfer now, we took Leicester's best CB in Maguire. Leicester, Wolves, Everton, Arsenal for me are the teams who most threaten last seasons top four but overall have weaker (to varying degrees) squads than Chelsea, United, Liverpool and City.
I'm also forgetting Mourinho who is in a weird halfway house between Ole/Lampard and the rest for me. He's been backed and has a strong squad but this is his first full season. I think all Spurs fans will be disappointed if he can't get top four however.
That is outrageous!
Spanish Tony Pulis
For someone who spent a long af time under Pep he sure is very pragmatic.
Is that a set piece? Surely. Even so.
Frank has had 169 days longer as manager than Arteta. So let’s just call it 5 months. He inherented a squad and had to make do without being able to change personnel and lost his best player. They all predicted we would finish 6th.
Now he has spent money and all the signings are doing well and are pretty productive. So now he has money you can’t say anyone has been bad right now (who knows atthe end of season).
Ole has had 9 years of management and is being constantly compared to rookie managers.
Arteta has his own problems to deal with but has been ok, not great. I don’t know the ins and outs of arsenal personally.
A comparison of Frank and Arteta is fair game. Adding Ole in to the mix is just proving he isn’t cut out for top management.
I agree with you. My original point was just if someone has to compare (which fans love to do) Ole vs Arteta is too one sided. Lampard vs Ole is a bit more fair because of their squad quality.
I do agree though, I think Ole's an average manager - he's clearly not a PE teacher but he is underperforming even more when you take his managerial tenure into consideration. What's telling is I don't think he'd get a job at any other PL team.
He needs to revamp that system and soon or he'll be out of a job.
He has proper turned them into stoke fc. And some called him an elite manager
Even when Arsenal weren't at their best under Wenger ,and maybe even under Emery, I still thought they were capable of putting that one move together and come up with a goal. Less so nowadays.
I guess its similar to us to some extent.
I guess its similar to us to some extent.