Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

GoonerBear said:
Im not claiming Arteta to be a great manager FFS. I'm not claiming Ange Postecoglu to be a great either (although I do find his methods interesting as much as it pains me to say it as a Rangers fan).

As was mentioned, I'm taking about philosophy vs pragmatism, mentioning how I previously had wanted Arteta to be more pragmatic. Maybe perhaps like we played in the 0-1 game a couple of years back.

Thought it was an interesting discussion. Wish I hadn't bothered. Arteta is a clown. Carry on.
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I think It's interesting. What is strange is that Arteta has shown he can be pragmatic/flexible before, rather than just stubborn as Lennon described. He started off playing quite boring but effective football at Arsenal (in the games that i watched) where he prioritized defensively and wouldn't get the back four to commit a very high line.

I think that he looked at ETH's style at Ajax and figured that is how United would immediately play, but realistically we manage 30-45 minutes of such play per game until we cede possession and absorb pressure (which would be typical under Ole). I don't think Arteta adapted like Ten Hag was able to during the match.

Overall it was a good game, and you should be pleased with the progress you've made under Arteta, in my opinion. Still a long way to go for both of our clubs i think.
 
He's an arrogant little shit and I can't stand the sight of him. Ten Hag putting him in his place on the weekend is the highlight of the season so far.
 
GoonerInPeace said:
ETH had set you up deep and to play on the counter on your own ground. A de-facto admission your not ready to contest the ball with Arsenal. Thats Arteta's doing, only Liverpool and Man City will seek to challenge us for the ball. All other teams will surrender possession to us home and away. We will therefore get more time on the ball, more touches in the final third increasing the chances of scoring. Saliba and Odegaard also missed sitters inside the box. We did enough to win the game, but the execution just wasn't there, at the front and back.
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GoonerInPeace said:
There was nothing controlled about that performance. When Saka scored all United fans were fearing the worst. But then one kick and chase moment and the game was upended.
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I’ve seen some nonsense posted but this takes the biscuit for deluded and arrogant.

United dominated the ball the first 15 minutes and Eriksen missed a sitter at the back post.

The (rightly) disallowed goal interrupted our rhythm and you took control of possession and did very well. You then continued to dominate the ball into the second half but again didn’t do much with it bar the Odegaard chance which ended up nearer the corner flag than the goal.

The odd thing is your goal was actually from a counter attack in which Varane made an error and you used the turnover to play directly through our defence where he was out of position.

To brand the Bruno assist for the second goal as a ‘kick and chase moment’ is beyond stupid. In fact if that’s what you believe then it should concern you that the Saliba-Gabriel Axis can’t deal with such Sunday League football. It really says more about your team than it does United.

Finally the first goal saw 18 passes put together from all 11 United players. It wasn’t a ‘counter attack goal’ and it was the only sustained passage of play from both teams that showcased modern possession based football at its best.

I appreciate you’re still disappointed in the result but probably not the best idea to log on here and post lazy, misinformed nonsense as it shows you lack any objectivity and insight.

You need to remember United are at the very beginning of a rebuild under Ten Hag and his coaches. We aren’t playing how he wants us to play yet but we are doing it for spells in games. This has been evident in all our fixtures this season (see the Sancho goal v Liverpool and the Antony goal v Arsenal).

This will improve overtime and will likely require us to make further changes in personnel over the next windows. I suspect De Gea will be replaced as it’s clear he can’t help in the build up and this is one of the reasons we concede more possession currently as he’s often forced to kick long to avoid costly errors. See Brentford.

Given you’ve been through something similar with Arteta it’s very odd you are either unable, or unwilling, to accept this. What Ten Hag is doing well at the moment is adapting his philosophy with the tools he currently has. The alternative, which I know you’d enjoy, would be to stick exactly with it and continue to see mistakes playing from the back, in particularly from the goalkeeper, and watch results and morale tumble.

I’m glad he’s adapting as we know what he’s working towards in the long term whilst recognising the current limitations of what he’s inherited. That’s smart.

It won’t be a smooth ride for us this season but we understand that.
 
TheReligion said:
I’ve seen some nonsense posted but this takes the biscuit for deluded and arrogant.

United dominated the ball the first 15 minutes and Eriksen missed a sitter at the back post.

The (rightly) disallowed goal interrupted our rhythm and you took control of possession and did very well. You then continued to dominate the ball into the second half but again didn’t do much with it bar the Odegaard chance which ended up nearer the corner flag than the goal.

The odd thing is your goal was actually from a counter attack in which Varane made an error and you used the turnover to play directly through our defence where he was out of position.

To brand the Bruno assist for the second goal as a ‘kick and chase moment’ is beyond stupid. In fact if that’s what you believe then it should concern you that the Saliba-Gabriel Axis can’t deal with such Sunday League football. It really says more about your team than it does United.

Finally the first goal saw 18 passes put together from all 11 United players. It wasn’t a ‘counter attack goal’ and it was the only sustained passage of play from both teams that showcased modern possession based football at its best.

I appreciate you’re still disappointed in the result but probably not the best idea to log on here and post lazy, misinformed nonsense as it shows you lack any objectivity and insight.

You need to remember United are at the very beginning of a rebuild under Ten Hag and his coaches. We aren’t playing how he wants us to play yet but we are doing it for spells in games. This has been evident in all our fixtures this season (see the Sancho goal v Liverpool and the Antony goal v Arsenal).

This will improve overtime and will likely require us to make further changes in personnel over the next windows. I suspect De Gea will be replaced as it’s clear he can’t help in the build up and this is one of the reasons we concede more possession currently as he’s often forced to kick long to avoid costly errors. See Brentford.

Given you’ve been through something similar with Arteta it’s very odd you are either unable, or unwilling, to accept this. What Ten Hag is doing well at the moment is adapting his philosophy with the tools he currently has. The alternative, which I know you’d enjoy, would be to stick exactly with it and continue to see mistakes playing from the back, in particularly from the goalkeeper, and watch results and morale tumble.

I’m glad he’s adapting as we know what he’s working towards in the long term whilst recognising the current limitations of what he’s inherited. That’s smart.

It won’t be a smooth ride for us this season but we understand that.
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Brilliant post. Spot on with everything
 
GoonerBear said:
Ive just heard the Celtic manager being interviewed, and he was asked how his team would play tonight vs Real Madrid, and I found it interesting what he said.

He said he won't change his beliefs and the way the team is set up to play attacking, front foot football. He said what's the point in believing in that way of playing if you don't stick to it. You always want to test out your philosophy against the better teams, as that's a true gauge of where you are as a team. Sitting back, playing a different negative way, that's not a true reflection of where you are.

And if it doesn't work out, then you go back, work on improving, and hope next time you play them you are a bit better.

Found that a rather interesting take.
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Maybe Arteta should have done that these past 3 years and managed to finish in the top 4 once.
 
TheReligion said:
Its a dig at United
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Of course.

I'm still waiting for Goonerinpieces to explain how Chelsea dominated possession last season and the season before given every team bar City and Liverpool bow down to Arsenal and surrender possession?
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Of course.

I'm still waiting for Goonerinpieces to explain how Chelsea dominated possession last season and the season before given every team bar City and Liverpool bow down to Arsenal and surrender possession?
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It’s a stupid dig too, as I’ve pointed out in my post above, but I very much doubt we will get a response from them.
 
If Arsenal fans think that they dominated us over the course of 90 minutes, I wouldn't mind us getting dominated again whenever we play against them, they can dominate us for all they like, I would take this same result every time. I would take 3 such kick and run past goals every time.
 
Those subs he made at 2-1 was quite poor. Get the feeling he tries too much to seem clever. Eriksen took advantage and made that forward run that resulted in his assist when he had been sitting back trying to protect the back four before those subs.

AmanNits04 said:
If Arsenal fans think that they dominated us over the course of 90 minutes, I wouldn't mind us getting dominated again whenever we play against them, they can dominate us for all they like, I would take this same result every time. I would take 3 such kick and run past goals every time.
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This game was a proper throwback. They used to think and say these things back in Wenger's days, dominating possession while we win the games. :lol:
 
GoonerBear said:
Ive just heard the Celtic manager being interviewed, and he was asked how his team would play tonight vs Real Madrid, and I found it interesting what he said.

He said he won't change his beliefs and the way the team is set up to play attacking, front foot football. He said what's the point in believing in that way of playing if you don't stick to it. You always want to test out your philosophy against the better teams, as that's a true gauge of where you are as a team. Sitting back, playing a different negative way, that's not a true reflection of where you are.

And if it doesn't work out, then you go back, work on improving, and hope next time you play them you are a bit better.

Found that a rather interesting take.
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Probably because they have nothing to lose again Real. If you have say 50-50 chance then you will do everything to exploit opposition weakness and avoid playing to their strength.
 
Tony247 said:
Probably because they have nothing to lose again Real. If you have say 50-50 chance then you will do everything to exploit opposition weakness and avoid playing to their strength.
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But they do play the same way against Rangers. Those games are more 50/50 with plenty to lose of you get it wrong.
 
The Corinthian said:
If there was any proof that Arteta has successfully lowered expectations at your club, it's taking some inspiration from Celtic when playing Real Madrid.
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I will remind you that unlike Arsenal, Celtic have actually won the European cup. The day Arsenal reach Celtics standards will be the greatest day in Arsenals history.
 
What did Arsenal expect? That they would throw on every attacker, push high up, leave big gaps, and not be hit on the counter because “eww counterattacking”?
 
GoonerBear said:
Ive just heard the Celtic manager being interviewed, and he was asked how his team would play tonight vs Real Madrid, and I found it interesting what he said.

He said he won't change his beliefs and the way the team is set up to play attacking, front foot football. He said what's the point in believing in that way of playing if you don't stick to it. You always want to test out your philosophy against the better teams, as that's a true gauge of where you are as a team. Sitting back, playing a different negative way, that's not a true reflection of where you are.

And if it doesn't work out, then you go back, work on improving, and hope next time you play them you are a bit better.

Found that a rather interesting take.
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Not related to arteta but as much as I do think Ange is a very good coach the chances are they’re going to get smashed if they’re trying to go toe to toe with Madrid. Rangers aren’t as good as Celtic but because they’re tough to beat and physical it makes them more likely to get results in Europe for me unlike Celtic who will try and play teams off the park - which they can do with many teams but certainly not Madrid or other good European sides.
 
TheReligion said:
everything you’ve been posting tbh
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Let me point out to you and others that Gooner In Peace is a different person to me, we aren't some mesh or hive network that has the same beliefs and thoughts. I dont agree with some of what they posted either funnily enough.

As for what I posted, how is it a dig at Utd? I pointed out this morning that I thought Arsenal should have played a bit deeper, and be more pragmatic, so to not offer as much space in transition, as that's where you are strong just now.

Then after hearing another manager talking about his approach to the game, I questioned my own views and asked on here what their thoughts were. Would we be better trying to stick to how the manager wants us to play going forward even if it meant being punished like Sunday, or should we try and be more pragmatic like we were a couple of seasons ago when we won 1-0 which was a much more dogged display?

You guys actually seee that as digs? And they were calling the Arsenal fans salty.
I actually think I got 1 response from Fridge Chutney seeing my post for what it was.
 
GoonerBear said:
Let me point out to you and others that Gooner In Peace is a different person to me, we aren't some mesh or hive network that has the same beliefs and thoughts. I dont agree with some of what they posted either funnily enough.

As for what I posted, how is it a dig at Utd? I pointed out this morning that I thought Arsenal should have played a bit deeper, and be more pragmatic, so to not offer as much space in transition, as that's where you are strong just now.

Then after hearing another manager talking about his approach to the game, I questioned my own views and asked on here what their thoughts were. Would we be better trying to stick to how the manager wants us to play going forward even if it meant being punished like Sunday, or should we try and be more pragmatic like we were a couple of seasons ago when we won 1-0 which was a much more dogged display?

You guys actually seee that as digs? And they were calling the Arsenal fans salty.
I actually think I got 1 response from Fridge Chutney seeing my post for what it was.
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You didn’t leave that much space. We created overloads with our movement and quick passing. Line was a bit high for the third but that’s it, even then that’s from our throw, you can’t sit deep there. Look at the second, how do you defend that? It’s a great run and great ball. By sitting deeper? Well look at our first goal and see how that’s works.
You’re blatantly making excuses and taking credit away from United under the guise of weak tactical complaints from Arteta.
 
GoonerBear said:
Let me point out to you and others that Gooner In Peace is a different person to me, we aren't some mesh or hive network that has the same beliefs and thoughts. I dont agree with some of what they posted either funnily enough.

As for what I posted, how is it a dig at Utd? I pointed out this morning that I thought Arsenal should have played a bit deeper, and be more pragmatic, so to not offer as much space in transition, as that's where you are strong just now.

Then after hearing another manager talking about his approach to the game, I questioned my own views and asked on here what their thoughts were. Would we be better trying to stick to how the manager wants us to play going forward even if it meant being punished like Sunday, or should we try and be more pragmatic like we were a couple of seasons ago when we won 1-0 which was a much more dogged display?

You guys actually seee that as digs? And they were calling the Arsenal fans salty.
I actually think I got 1 response from Fridge Chutney seeing my post for what it was.
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Don’t cry. I got your user names wrong because they both have ‘goon’ in them.

My apologies
 
GoonerBear said:
Ive just heard the Celtic manager being interviewed, and he was asked how his team would play tonight vs Real Madrid, and I found it interesting what he said.

He said he won't change his beliefs and the way the team is set up to play attacking, front foot football. He said what's the point in believing in that way of playing if you don't stick to it. You always want to test out your philosophy against the better teams, as that's a true gauge of where you are as a team. Sitting back, playing a different negative way, that's not a true reflection of where you are.

And if it doesn't work out, then you go back, work on improving, and hope next time you play them you are a bit better.

Found that a rather interesting take.
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Celtic would more than likely get beat regardless of the way they played anyway. United always had a good chance of beating Arsenal so they decided on a tactic that would succeed.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
It is such a shame that pretty, ineffective, passing, tiki football is not what wins football matches, goals do.
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And it's an irony that Arsenal fans atleast some think their side played some amazing tiki tacky football when in fact it was just decent nothing great.
 
cyberman said:
You didn’t leave that much space. We created overloads with our movement and quick passing. Line was a bit high for the third but that’s it, even then that’s from our throw, you can’t sit deep there. Look at the second, how do you defend that? It’s a great run and great ball. By sitting deeper? Well look at our first goal and see how that’s works.
You’re blatantly making excuses and taking credit away from United under the guise of weak tactical complaints from Arteta.
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The 2nd goal our centre backs were near the half way line. Our number 6 was over at left wing having just gave the ball away. When Eriksen passed to Bruno, there were no midfielders between him and the defence, Zinchenko was closest.

I am not making excuses, I'm asking questions. Many Utd fans on here have pointed out failings from Arteta and Arsenal as well, but when I do I'm trolling because its coming from an Arsenal fan?

Im giving Utd credit. They are currently a team that's strong on transitions. Again, that's not a dig, that's an appreciation of where you are, and yes, you will evolve tactically. In Eriksen and Bruno, you have 2 very good players to take advantage of space in midfield, and they did so to great effect. Some great, quick passing never let our midfield get back in position. Thats why I'm asking the question did we set up right tactically, thats all.

I'll look at things from an Arsenal perspective more than a Utd perspective, but I'll also give credit where its due.

TheReligion said:
Don’t cry. I got your user names wrong because they both have ‘goon’ in them.

My apologies
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That's fine, I'm not crying, just don't like being accused of things I try my best to avoid doing while I appreciate I'm on a rival forum.
 
cyberman said:
You didn’t leave that much space. We created overloads with our movement and quick passing. Line was a bit high for the third but that’s it, even then that’s from our throw, you can’t sit deep there. Look at the second, how do you defend that? It’s a great run and great ball. By sitting deeper? Well look at our first goal and see how that’s works.
You’re blatantly making excuses and taking credit away from United under the guise of weak tactical complaints from Arteta.
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This is an odd take. Pointing out that Arsenal left gaps in their defence is making excuses? Isn’t that the opposite of making excuses?

You don’t need to take everything as a dig against United. Especially in the Arteta thread after he just lost a game.

United played well and won. Be happy, man.
 
Daydreamer said:
This is an odd take. Pointing out that Arsenal left gaps in their defence is making excuses? Isn’t that the opposite of making excuses?

You don’t need to take everything as a dig against United. Especially in the Arteta thread after he just lost a game.

United played well and won. Be happy, man.
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I believe the annoyance is stemming from some general consensus in the media that United are playing some kind of ‘anti-football’, whereas some of the other big teams are perceived to be playing more expansively. As a United fan I do feel some of the criticism has been misplaced, and there seems to be a lot of backhanded compliments going around in the media about ten Haag and how he has been setting up the team.
 
Strootman's Finger said:
He's an arrogant little shit and I can't stand the sight of him. Ten Hag putting him in his place on the weekend is the highlight of the season so far.
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Yes, it was totally down to Ten Hag that Arsenal had a perfectly good goal disallowed, dominated play, missed numerous chances, and widely regarded as the better team – read through the in-match thread if in denial. Just a bit of a freak result, which happens. Utd did well to dig out the 3 points. The better team doesn't always win, I have seen it 1000 times, no big deal.
 
Posh Red said:
I believe the annoyance is stemming from some general consensus in the media that United are playing some kind of ‘anti-football’, whereas some of the other big teams are perceived to be playing more expansively. As a United fan I do feel some of the criticism has been misplaced, and there seems to be a lot of backhanded compliments going around in the media about ten Haag and how he has been setting up the team.
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Fair enough. I must admit I’m probably not the most up to date with public opinion about the game as I’m not really looking to relive the experience of yet another trip to Old Trafford where we play some decent football and come away with nothing.

If you say that’s consensus amongst the pundits I’m happy to take your word for it. I won’t be checking myself, that’s for sure.
 
Daydreamer said:
This is an odd take. Pointing out that Arsenal left gaps in their defence is making excuses? Isn’t that the opposite of making excuses?

You don’t need to take everything as a dig against United. Especially in the Arteta thread after he just lost a game.

United played well and won. Be happy, man.
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Did you leave gaps or did Utd work the gaps? Quick passes and runs is what we’re aiming for, quick passes and off the ball runs is what opens up defences.
it’s silly to say Arsenal left gaps as Jesus constantly dropped back and condensed your defensive structure more than suddenly wandering around the pitch. Then Your FBs, who you have moving infield making them extra midfielders which is this master stroke according to Arsenal fans all summer, condensed that even further. You might have played a high line at times but that isn’t leaving gaps.
 
GoonerBear said:
It's not inspiration, it's an insight to certain managers thinking, and a point of view I hadn't really thought about.
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Unless you realistically have zero chance against a (much) stronger opponent, I don't really see the merit in this approach.

As a coach, your job is to win (or gain a result, more precisely). If you approach that job with zero pragmatism, just sticking to whatever "philosophy" you believe in, you're likely to end up with egg on your face sooner rather than later.

Of course, you can argue that if you're at the beginning of a "process", where drilling your players in a certain system is of the upmost importance, it may be beneficial to sacrifice short-term results. But if you have an established team - no, I would never agree with a coach who prefers to play a certain way on principle, rather than trying to outwit his opponent in any way he can on the day.
 
BurgerVan said:
Yes, it was totally down to Ten Hag that Arsenal had a perfectly good goal disallowed, dominated play, missed numerous chances, and widely regarded as the better team – read through the in-match thread if in denial. Just a bit of a freak result, which happens. Utd did well to dig out the 3 points. The better team doesn't always win, I have seen it 1000 times, no big deal.
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How about I form my opinion based on the game I watched. Arsenal's goal was 100% correctly ruled out. The goal they did score came from a mistake by Dalot, and other than that they didn't really create too many chances. Meanwhile we created and finished 3 well constructed team goals. If you think that result was a fluke than you need to watch more football.
 
BurgerVan said:
Yes, it was totally down to Ten Hag that Arsenal had a perfectly good goal disallowed, dominated play, missed numerous chances, and widely regarded as the better team – read through the in-match thread if in denial. Just a bit of a freak result, which happens. Utd did well to dig out the 3 points. The better team doesn't always win, I have seen it 1000 times, no big deal.
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With that level of bitterness you should help yourself to a seat at the Emptyhad.
 
CannonBalls said:
Dont think so, he was trying to cover for Gabriel as he was nowhere to be found.
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He looked twice over his left shoulder and couldnt see anyone so just came to the conclusion Antony must have went for a piss. It was a bad move to concede but Zinchenko should be aware that their 1B winger is probably trying to get on the ball.
 
BurgerVan said:
Yes, it was totally down to Ten Hag that Arsenal had a perfectly good goal disallowed, dominated play, missed numerous chances, and widely regarded as the better team – read through the in-match thread if in denial. Just a bit of a freak result, which happens. Utd did well to dig out the 3 points. The better team doesn't always win, I have seen it 1000 times, no big deal.
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5 posts a day and you waste one of them with this shit post.
 
GoonerBear said:
I've still not got over that Mike Riley performance! :wenger:
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Mate, it was a penalty. Just like how that was a foul, because you cannot just shove someone off the ball. Any other team besides united and that's a foul, even if the player does touch the ball.
 
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