Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

[Pogue Mahone]

His best players are from their own reserves (Martinelli, Smith Rowe, Saka). His purchase of Tomiyasu and Ramsdale I feel was strong. Partey was vital in their resurgence this season too. Cannot say the same for Lokanga and Taveres. But he did not buy Pepe, he was lumbered with Aubameyang and Lacazette.

It is more than evident that the required surgery at Arsenal will take multiple windows and seasons. The improvement from 8th to 5th isn't setting the world on fire but it is a tangible one, especially when you consider his squad quality is behind City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Manchester United.

It is no surprise to me that the team pipping top 4 was the team that was given a couple January signings to slot straight into the first XI. It gave the team a boost and they were solid purchases. Arsenal should have recruited in January in my opinion.

Tangible but minimal. Scored fewer goals. Let in more goals. And the point that keeps getting glossed over is that this “tangible improvement” is over an incredibly low bar. An incredibly low bar set by non other than Arteta himself!

 

[VP89]

Tangible but minimal. Scored fewer goals. Let in more goals. And the point that keeps getting glossed over is that this “tangible improvement” is over an incredibly low bar. An incredibly low bar set by non other than Arteta himself!

Sure but he had to cut his big goal scorer loose. Aubameyang's attitude needed addressing and I think Arteta did the right thing there.. of course, at the cost of losing one of his main outlets for goal. I point to being 3 positions higher up the table as being the barometer of improvement moreso than the secondary stats of goals scored vs conceded. Not to say the latters aren't meaningful but the league position is most important.

Also, if he had won yesterday and pipped top 4, everyone would praise him for a frankly outstanding achievement. It shouldn't have to be that thin a line for evaluating managers - the landscape was the same for Ole too. He was 90 mins from finishing 5th but because he snuck a 1-1 draw to Leicester (who had a crazy amount of injuries) on the final day of the season, he finish 3rd and was lauded!

 

[Raw]

He was 90 mins from finishing 5th but because he snuck a 1-1 draw to Leicester (who had a crazy amount of injuries) on the final day of the season, he finish 3rd and was lauded!

Won that game 2-0 didn't we? Remember Lingard scoring literally the last goal of the season to break his bad record of not scoring or assisting all season. Some lad lost a bet because of it.

 

[Loon]

Never gave much of a shit about this Auton until the VAR crowd-rousing bullshit he pulled against us. Now I love every spanked arse expression on his sulky face every time they feck up.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Sure but he had to cut his big goal scorer loose. Aubameyang's attitude needed addressing and I think Arteta did the right thing there.. of course, at the cost of losing one of his main outlets for goal. I point to being 3 positions higher up the table as being the barometer of improvement moreso than the secondary stats of goals scored vs conceded. Not to say the latters aren't meaningful but the league position is most important.

Also, if he had won yesterday and pipped top 4, everyone would praise him for a frankly outstanding achievement. It shouldn't have to be that thin a line for evaluating managers - the landscape was the same for Ole too. He was 90 mins from finishing 5th but because he snuck a 1-1 draw to Leicester (who had a crazy amount of injuries) on the final day of the season, he finish 3rd and was lauded!

First of all, it’s the similarities with Ole that endorse the idea he’s not up to the job. Second, Arteta didn’t win yesterday. His team never looked like winning. And, if anything, Arsenal have picked up a bunch of points recently that their performances didn’t deserve. Shocking performance from VAR/referees against United gave them three points they really didn’t deserve and they rode their luck massively against Chelsea. 32% possession and scored a goal with every single shot on target.

They didn’t fail bravely in an extremely close game yesterday. They had their arses handed to them. The culmination of a long period of bang average performances. I fully expect them to struggle badly against Everton too. It’s actually surprising their top four dream stayed alive until now, after a run-in where they’ve played so consistently badly. If United had even managed par results in our last ten fixtures or so we’d have left them behind ages ago.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Has lost 38 in 130;
Ole lost 40 in 168.

That's pretty grimm stuff.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

Trust the process!!!

 

[The Corinthian]

Has lost 38 in 130;
Ole lost 40 in 168.

That's pretty grimm stuff.

But when you factor in the cultural reset, it’s actually like 0 in 130.

 

[TheReligion]

Sure but he had to cut his big goal scorer loose. Aubameyang's attitude needed addressing and I think Arteta did the right thing there.. of course, at the cost of losing one of his main outlets for goal. I point to being 3 positions higher up the table as being the barometer of improvement moreso than the secondary stats of goals scored vs conceded. Not to say the latters aren't meaningful but the league position is most important.

Also, if he had won yesterday and pipped top 4, everyone would praise him for a frankly outstanding achievement. It shouldn't have to be that thin a line for evaluating managers - the landscape was the same for Ole too. He was 90 mins from finishing 5th but because he snuck a 1-1 draw to Leicester (who had a crazy amount of injuries) on the final day of the season, he finish 3rd and was lauded!

We beat Leicestershire FC comfortably on the last day FYI

 

[DanClancy]

Arsenal lost 6 out of the last 11 games, 15 points from 11 games whilst Spurs have taken 23 points in the same period. Looks like Arsenal have completely bottled it.

Will be a lot tougher next year with European football given the lack of strength in that squad.

Is it next season that finishing 5th will likely get CL football or is it the year after?

 

[Freak]

Has lost 38 in 130;
Ole lost 40 in 168.

That's pretty grimm stuff.

He waves his arms around a lot though so I guess that reduces the number of losses. Somehow.

 

[B20]

I think Benitez time is romanticised a lot by his European record. He's was a great tactician in Europe, domestically I'm not sure.

He won 1 FA Cup in 6 years, didn't make it to the quarter final the other 5.

Made 1 final in the League Cup, didn't make it past the quarter final in the other 5 years.

Finished 5th, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 2nd & 7th. Decent, but great?

Relative to where we were at the time:
5th + cl win: great
3rd on 80+ points + fa cup: great
3rd + CL final: pretty good
4th - meh
2nd on 86 points: pretty good
7th - terrible

Klopp probably would have done better, but that's a crazy standard to follow. You'd take a run like that under arteta I'd imagine. But he won't get there.

If your manager isn't as good as Houllier you need to look for the next one. The kind of incremental progress you're making is not enough to get you out of essentially treading water.

 

[VP89]

We beat Leicestershire FC comfortably on the last day FYI

Sorry, had my score mixed up there

 

[VP89]

First of all, it’s the similarities with Ole that endorse the idea he’s not up to the job. Second, Arteta didn’t win yesterday. His team never looked like winning. And, if anything, Arsenal have picked up a bunch of points recently that their performances didn’t deserve. Shocking performance from VAR/referees against United gave them three points they really didn’t deserve and they rode their luck massively against Chelsea. 32% possession and scored a goal with every single shot on target.

They didn’t fail bravely in an extremely close game yesterday. They had their arses handed to them. The culmination of a long period of bang average performances. I fully expect them to struggle badly against Everton too. It’s actually surprising their top four dream stayed alive until now, after a run-in where they’ve played so consistently badly. If United had even managed par results in our last ten fixtures or so we’d have left them behind ages ago.

I am not saying Arsenal have played particularly well of late, nor that they should have beaten Newcastle. I do think squeezing results when you're not playing well is part of the game and even ETH has had to do this for Ajax from April to May for example.

I do want to know what the fair expectation should be of a manager who has the 5th best squad (if that). If its not 5th place, what should it be?

 

[Billy Bullcrap]

Last night Arsenal looked very poor, a team running on empty. They have played comparably few games having no European games and out of the cups early. Unless there are some major changes they will struggle massively next season.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I am not saying Arsenal have played particularly well of late, nor that they should have beaten Newcastle. I do think squeezing results when you're not playing well is part of the game and even ETH has had to do this for Ajax from April to May for example.

I do want to know what the fair expectation should be of a manager who has the 5th best squad (if that). If its not 5th place, what should it be?

I’ve no idea how any squad can be given a definitive label of 3rd, 4th or 5th best. Otherwise what’s the point of managers?!?

With his top four rivals all playing so badly, the money invested in his squad and the rare ability to focus on the league without ever travelling for European midweek fixtures I would say not getting top four is a definite failure. Would have been sweetened slightly by an impressive domestic cup run but that didn’t happen either.

 

[Tavern in the town]

I don’t really see it talked about a lot but it’s striking how shit Arsenal have been at creating chances from open play during his tenure. Doesn’t really feel like it matches the perception of him because sometimes he’s seen as this sexy possession coach when actually they’re absolutely dull, a large percentage of their goals come from set pieces.

 

[Dancfc]

 

[Topgun1]

Emery managed 70 points and 5th place in his first season. Doesn't get backed in the summer , things go wrong and he gets the sack. Arteta is allowed to finish 8th back to back , gets heavily backed in the summer , Rivals Leicester/United regressed and Spurs for some time underperfomed. Top 4 is given on a silver platter , they only have the league to focus and now they're hoping for relegated Norwich to beat Tottenham to maybe see if they can secure CL as there's no guarantee they won't drop points to Everton. The most points Arteta's arsenal can get is 69 , still below Emery who had europe and reached EL final

Not sure how some Arsenal fans can take Arteta seriously as a manager and he just extended...

Agreed totally. Thank you for that.

I'm just tired of regurgitating the same criticisms of Arteta, I'm not even happy that I've been proven right once again. He really outdid himself this time..I mean last year was calamitous, but to have a clear sight at top 4 and then lose to Crystal Palace, Brighton, Southampton and get thrashed by Tottenham and then lose to Newcastle in the closing stages of the season...he really outdid himself.

Far worse was than last year's shameful exit at the hands of Villareal in the EL - literally the first competitive team we faced.

Every single season, we are getting WORSE under him, not better. That's something people have remarkably not caught onto. His BEST season was his first season, when he won the FA Cup, and it went all downhill from there. It's hard to believe what is happening right now, especially with the way Wenger and Emery were treated. It's so difficult to accept, it's shameful by the club. Utter disgrace!

I could have egg on my face if Tottenham somehow managed to commence operation Tottenham and bottle their fixture against Norwich.

But even if we fluke top 4 from this position, the damage is already done. It's by far, the worst ending to a season I have ever seen in my lifetime.

 

[Lastwolf]

Arsenal lost 6 out of the last 11 games, 15 points from 11 games whilst Spurs have taken 23 points in the same period. Looks like Arsenal have completely bottled it.

Will be a lot tougher next year with European football given the lack of strength in that squad.

Is it next season that finishing 5th will likely get CL football or is it the year after?

The rules are 2024/25 season so it's 2 seasons away.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Also, if he had won yesterday and pipped top 4, everyone would praise him for a frankly outstanding achievement. It shouldn't have to be that thin a line for evaluating managers.

The thing is, Arteta looks worse, not better, if you look at it more holistically.

Arsenal have scored 56 goals and conceded 47, their GD is +9. Last season it was +16 with 55 scored and 39 conceded; the previous season it was +8 with 56 goals scored and 48 goals conceded. These are extremely stable numbers over a long period of time, and not good enough.

The low GD is concerning because Arsenal have the lowest amount of draws in the PL (3), a freakishly low number given that they're not champions. Next season they are almost certain to get more, and the low and stable GD suggests they're as likely to come from missed wins than from missed losses.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

I was wondering for a few minutes as to why Lucas Leiva is celebrating Arsenal's defeat

 

[DWelbz19]

 

[PedroMendez]

I am not saying Arsenal have played particularly well of late, nor that they should have beaten Newcastle. I do think squeezing results when you're not playing well is part of the game and even ETH has had to do this for Ajax from April to May for example.

I do want to know what the fair expectation should be of a manager who has the 5th best squad (if that). If its not 5th place, what should it be?

If Tottenham are going to win their last game, Arteta will end up finishing behind them the third time in a row. It is crazy to argue, that Arsenal's expectations should be lower than that of their London rival. Tottenham sacked two managers during this time, their best player threw a tantrum for a while and generally the post-Poch era hasn't been brilliant for them. Yet still better than Arsenal.
The placing also doesn't tell the whole story. In general their football is boring and uninspiring. There are plenty of teams in the EPL that have worse players, that are far better organized and play far better football. Its not like Conte's Tottenham is particularly brilliant, but you could see the immediate impact he had. Just like with Tuchel previously or the likes of Pep/Klopp before that. The same is also true for Howe/Newcastle. Of course the latter invested a shitload of money during the winter break, but their performances are night and day and they certainly shouldn't play Arsenal off the park. Good manager make a difference. Arteta has shown almost nothing so far. For all the talk about building something, they are still not more than the sum of its parts. His recruitment has been questionable, his tactics are bland and his handling of players has been horrible.

The only thing he can point to is, that he worked for Pep.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I do want to know what the fair expectation should be of a manager who has the 5th best squad (if that). If its not 5th place, what should it be?

I don't really understand this line of reasoning. If the correlation between squad quality and league placement is so strong then why have managers? Or is the argument that a manager can only underperform relative to the quality of the squad, but never overperform?

 

[Topgun1]

If Tottenham are going to win their last game, Arteta will end up finishing behind them the third time in a row. It is crazy to argue, that Arsenal's expectations should be lower than that of their London rival. Tottenham sacked two managers during this time, their best player threw a tantrum for a while and generally the post-Poch era hasn't been brilliant for them. Yet still better than Arsenal.
The placing also doesn't tell the whole story. In general their football is boring and uninspiring. There are plenty of teams in the EPL that have worse players, that are far better organized and play far better football. Its not like Conte's Tottenham is particularly brilliant, but you could see the immediate impact he had. Just like with Tuchel previously or the likes of Pep/Klopp before that. The same is also true for Howe/Newcastle. Of course the latter invested a shitload of money during the winter break, but their performances are night and day and they certainly shouldn't play Arsenal off the park. Good manager make a difference. Arteta has shown almost nothing so far. For all the talk about building something, they are still not more than the sum of its parts. His recruitment has been questionable, his tactics are bland and his handling of players has been horrible.

The only thing he can point to is, that he worked for Pep.

I loved every bit of that analysis.

Just completely spot on.

 

[TheReligion]

I am not saying Arsenal have played particularly well of late, nor that they should have beaten Newcastle. I do think squeezing results when you're not playing well is part of the game and even ETH has had to do this for Ajax from April to May for example.

I do want to know what the fair expectation should be of a manager who has the 5th best squad (if that). If its not 5th place, what should it be?

He’s been at the club 3 years and they aren’t really doing anything different. It’s exactly like United under Ole, good little runs then dismal periods of form.

Arteta should have a settled squad by now playing towards a clear style worked over 6 different transfer windows.

United, Spurs both been in turmoil yet you can barely split them.

 

[Tavern in the town]

I do want to know what the fair expectation should be of a manager who has the 5th best squad (if that). If its not 5th place, what should it be?

Arsenal weren’t expected to make top 4 before the season started. So what? Context obviously matters. They weren’t to know we’d have our worst season in 30 years, they weren’t to know Spurs would be absolutely terrible and end up sacking their manager. Not getting top 4 is a clear failure regardless of pre season expectations. 6 losses in 11 is clear failure, and so is bottling a 6 point lead with a game in hand. These things are indefensible.

It also doesn’t reflect too well on Arteta that no one had them finishing in the top 4 before the season, despite 1.5 years in charge and a summer window of spending £150M.

 

[VP89]

I don't really understand this line of reasoning. If the correlation between squad quality and league placement is so strong then why have managers? Or is the argument that a manager can only underperform relative to the quality of the squad, but never overperform?

The post I replied to said suggested he failed convincingly. I just put it to him that the league being roughly in line with squad capabilities shouldn't be a failure as such. I actually think his squad is worse than Spurs post Jan too, he had no Tierney and Tomiyasu for long stretches. No striker up top either. I think if you took either Kane or Son (both of whom are world class) out of Conte's team, they don't finish 4th. Conte was granted a couple transfers of his own on top - and Arteta in my opinion should have been backed with a striker after disposing (Rightly) of Auba, a player he never bought in the first place.

He’s been at the club 3 years and they aren’t really doing anything different. It’s exactly like United under Ole, good little runs then dismal periods of form.

Arteta should have a settled squad by now playing towards a clear style worked over 6 different transfer windows.

United, Spurs both been in turmoil yet you can barely split them.

I think Arteta is miles better than Ole but of course is yet to deliver at Arsenal. The purchases have been patchy but their games tend to be less chaotic. Totally agree on Arteta having little excuse after 6 transfer windows but wonder if we should look at their structure rather than just resting sole blame on him. Edu is a novice in the job and the track record of shit buys pre-dates his tenure.

Arsenal weren’t expected to make top 4 before the season started. So what? Context obviously matters. They weren’t to know we’d have our worst season in 30 years, they weren’t to know Spurs would be absolutely terrible and end up sacking their manager. Not getting top 4 is a clear failure regardless of pre season expectations. 6 losses in 11 is clear failure, and so is bottling a 6 point lead with a game in hand. These things are indefensible.

It also doesn’t reflect too well on Arteta that no one had them finishing in the top 4 before the season, despite 1.5 years in charge and a summer window of spending £150M.

Sure but Arteta also culled Aubemeyang, wasn't backed in January unlike Conte and lost vital players to longer term injuries where he didn't have any depth in the position (Tomiyasu, Partey, Tierney). It means moving a CM to left back and relying on Cedric who was never good enough.

For me the bigger problem than Arteta is the recruitment above him. And before anyone pounces, I'm not saying Arteta is some hit or wonderful manager, but I don't think he has outright "failed" this season given he's gone from 8th to 5th and will compete in Europa - all things considered its progress albeit not at a quick rate.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Arteta in my opinion should have been backed with a striker after disposing (Rightly) of Auba, a player he never bought in the first place.

Arsenal have scored pretty much the same amount of goals in the last three seasons even though Arteta has substantially changed the squad, and the number has been 20 goals less than what it was the previous three seasons. Meanwhile Aubameyang has scored 11 league goals for Barcelona in a half season.

I think enough time has passed that we can blame the goalscoring issues on Arteta's style of football and not the personnel.

 

[VP89]

Arsenal have scored pretty much the same amount of goals in the last three seasons even though Arteta has substantially changed the squad, and the number has been 20 goals less than what it was the previous three seasons. Meanwhile Aubameyang has scored 11 league goals for Barcelona in a half season.

I feel pretty comfortable saying that the issue here isn't the striker, it's Arteta's style of football.

That's an extraordinarily lazy comparison, I'm sorry. Aubemeyang had a purple patch after joining Barcelona but he found a spring in his own step wanting to show his worth in a new league for a big side. He had known disciplinary issues at Arsenal and was far from motivated to achieve this season. This was reflective of him being in some notable good positions early on and failing to put the ball in the back of the net. Arteta has had Aubemyang scoring before, but it went sour after the latter took a piss with his lackadaisical attitude to training and match-days.
Arteta took out the problem early on as a message to the dressing room, which I think is correct. But he then had no proper striker capable to take on the reigns outside of Lacazette who himself will be out the door soon enough. Shy of Nketiah and Saka, there isn't really anyone. Martinelli has been on/off with injuries and Odegard is a creator. He's relying a bunch of 19-22 year olds to get by scoring - which is why I said he needs to be backed with a goalscorer of his own.

 

[Daydreamer]

That's an extraordinarily lazy comparison, I'm sorry. Aubemeyang had a purple patch after joining Barcelona but he found a spring in his own step wanting to show his worth in a new league for a big side. He had known disciplinary issues at Arsenal and was far from motivated to achieve this season. This was reflective of him being in some notable good positions early on and failing to put the ball in the back of the net. Arteta has had Aubemyang scoring before, but it went sour after the latter took a piss with his lackadaisical attitude to training and match-days.
Arteta took out the problem early on as a message to the dressing room, which I think is correct. But he then had no proper striker capable to take on the reigns outside of Lacazette who himself will be out the door soon enough. Shy of Nketiah and Saka, there isn't really anyone. Martinelli has been on/off with injuries and Odegard is a creator. He's relying a bunch of 19-22 year olds to get by scoring - which is why I said he needs to be backed with a goalscorer of his own.

I agree, the problem wasn't selling Auba - it was not replacing him. However, if Arteta knew he couldn't replace him before the Summer, he should have made it work until the end of the season. We simply have too few reliable goal scorers. Our front three is now:

• RW: Saka
• LW: Martinelli/Smith-Rowe
• ST: Nketiah

Nketiah is the oldest at 22. Our kids have been carrying us. It looks like they've been unable to get us across the line, but they shouldn't have to.

 

[VP89]

I agree, the problem wasn't selling Auba - it was not replacing him. However, if Arteta knew he couldn't replace him before the Summer, he should have made it work until the end of the season. We simply have too few reliable goal scorers. Our front three is now:

• RW: Saka
• LW: Martinelli/Smith-Rowe
• ST: Nketiah

Nketiah is the oldest at 22. Our kids have been carrying us. It looks like they've been unable to get us across the line, but they shouldn't have to.

Yeah, but this is why I think theres a structural issue. It was reported everywhere that Arsenal were very much in for a striker and they evidently didn't want to put the cash on the table. Those sorts of decisions are above the manager

 

[Utd heap]

More than happy for him to plod along at Arsenal, an even half competent Utd team should find it easy to finish above them.

The blinkers a lot of switched on Arsenal fans seem to have with their 'progress' does seem slightly odd to me. Not in sync with their status as probably the 3rd biggest club in the UK.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

He's relying a bunch of 19-22 year olds to get by scoring - which is why I said he needs to be backed with a goalscorer of his own.

He wasn't relying on a bunch of 19-22 year olds in the previous two seasons and Arsenal scored the same amount of goals.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

When the outputs are the same after three years (goals scored, goals conceded) you have to ask whether the change that is ocurring isn't just change for its own sake.

 

[VP89]

He wasn't relying on a bunch of 19-22 year olds in the previous two seasons and Arsenal scored the same amount of goals.

We are talking about this season. He has progresses 3 league positions between this and last season, and thats after letting go of his only proper striker.

 

[VP89]

When the outputs are the same after three years (goals scored, goals conceded) you have to ask whether the change that is ocurring isn't just change for its own sake.

The most meaningful output isnt unchanged, hes gone from 8th to 5th.

 

[Tavern in the town]

We are talking about this season. He has progresses 3 league positions between this and last season, and thats after letting go of his only proper striker.

I don’t think “progressing” from 8th to 5th after spending £150m in the summer anything to write home about, especially given the teams he’s leapfrogged are a) the worst United side in 30 years and b) a West Ham side who had been prioritising the Europa League until a few weeks ago. Bearing in mind they’ve played one game a week for most of the season.

 

[gorky_utd]

He should continue. Terrific manager for rest of us. Arsenal should trust the process.