What happened to the thread title? Did he unagree terms?
Manuel Ugarte | Romano - he’s signed | Awaiting Club announcement
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I think it's the collective depression taking hold here. Same on the de Ligt front, title change. Makes it feel further away
Probably not a fan of roy keane in his prime then?
That doesn't seem to be the issue for Ugarte, who is 95th/96th percentile for pass completion among midfielders while passing at a relatively high volume.
Thought that myself. Wharton’s numbers don’t look right, plus, he really picks his moments and then hits peach passes, so it’s hard to really determine his game from the data. Plus he plays in a team expected to be under the cosh more than the others.
I think you're doing a disservice to Keane with that comment.
Roy Keane was a world class footballer. Box to box, a leader, took games by the scruff of the neck. He was not a "passion merchant."
Yeah, didn’t want to be the one to say it. Roy led passing and circulation stats during his entire peak at the club, by a distance too, iirc.
A high passing % number doesnt mean you are a world class passer, if most of your passes are safe backwards/sideways passes.
Yeah same here but no chance club would do it, therefore best we can hope for is this guy and Asslani (name from Inter Milan source on reddit)
Casemiro fares well if you add him to that comparison.
If he weren't as slow and undisciplined as he is now, he would be a good partner for Mainoo.
Keane is only the best midfielder in Premier League history. A lot more than passion..
Who do you think Roy Keane is?
Seriously? You watched Keane, right?
I still don’t get this. We had the dumbest midfield structure in football for the vast majority of the season. How is that never factored into discussions about Casemiro being uncharacteristically insane in his game and actions?
Ugarte appears to be more of a safe pass type of midfielder on the ball, who is more comfortable carrying the ball forward than passing it forward, but a very energetic Duracell bunny tackler off the ball which matches he eye test. Wharton, in comparison, is probably less all action than Ugarte but more of an accomplished passer.
Are there any stats for possession held whilst playing the initial pass?
Ugarte appears to be more of a safe pass type of midfielder on the ball, who is more comfortable carrying the ball forward than passing it forward, but a very energetic Duracell bunny tackler off the ball which matches he eye test. Wharton, in comparison, is probably less all action than Ugarte but more of an accomplished passer.
Wharton holds much better than the others - the heat maps would be interesting - whilst actually playing through lines, not even regarding through into the attacking 3rd.
Thanks for additional post, the exposition is helpful.
Ugarte appears to be more of a safe pass type of midfielder on the ball, who is more comfortable carrying the ball forward than passing it forward, but a very energetic Duracell bunny tackler off the ball which matches he eye test. Wharton, in comparison, is probably less all action than Ugarte but more of an accomplished passer.
Hence why we need both of these midfield profiles
Wharton doesnt seem to be on sale, and there have barely been any links to him, so discussing him doesnt make sense.
I really hope we go for Neves though, but it seems a pipe dream at this point.
I really hope we go for Neves though, but it seems a pipe dream at this point.
Just waiting for the dreaded confirmation from PSG
I've only seen Ugarte from YouTube clips, is it fair to say he's got Fred's engine but he's stronger and slightly better positionally and also without the loose touches and brain dead passes, but he keeps it safe and simple on the ball passing it to the nearest man leaving other players around him to do the progressive, creative ball work.
Duel wins and key passes are 2 of the most important abilities of cm players.
Duels win is another words of tackling win/succesful tackling and interceptions.
Ugarte had average 4 tackles in a lesser intensity league
Wharton had average 3 tackles in premier league
Rodri from City had average 2 tackles
Declan Rice had average 2 tackles
Key passes = ---> lead to big chances, XG and goals = ability to create chances and goals :
Ugarte 0.5 avg key pass each game
Wharton 1.3 avg key passes
Rodri 1.4 avg key passes
Rice 1.2 avg key passes
So even Rodri had lower tackling than both Ugarte and Wharton. But both of Ugarte and Wharton didn't score any goal. Rodri had 8 goals and 9 assist. = You don't need to be a top tackler and ballwinner, to help your team winning premier league. 8 goals and 9 assist was good enough to winning title.
And Rodri is a lot better to keep the ball in the team. Harder to take the ball from. So when City and Rodri is having the ball = it mean opponents teams have ball lesser = lesser chance create.
And one of the big reason why Rodri was scoring low with tackling and interception. Because how can Rodri tackling himself when he has the ball?
High tackling and interception rate mean = your team is set up to counter attack = underdog. Like Palace and Ugarte with PSG.
And with United. United do have a cm player than can run a lot and do tackle. In the upcoming cm player in Toby Collyer. He can be the back up for Wharton and Casemiro if he stay. Even McTom can play along Wharton & Mainoo.
In other words it easier to train and develop Toby Collyer to become Ugarte cm player than a Adam Wharton and Rodri kind of ball and controlling cm player. Because why?
To become better and more consistent with ball abilities is more difficult than without ball ability like takling, aggresiveness, top guts, hard work and interception.
And Dan Gore is in more in Ugarte mould and category of player too. United shall better give Collyer and Gore and back up/squad spot, than buying a 60-70 mill euros aggresive really good ballwinner.
A Cm player like Adam Wharton is more difficult to find and develop than a Cm of Ugarte category. Ugarte is most known for without the ball ability = defensive ability = counter attack ability.
United need a cm that control/balance and brain of the team. Let Kobbie Mainoo play with more freedom, creative and more box to box.
You thought Mainoo is really calm. But Wharton is more calmer and maybe more discipline. Mainoo has a lot of energy, because of his age. And attacking ability and a goal treat and higher potential goalscorer shall be play higher than Wharton. Wharton is the ideal controlling, balance and deep lying playmaker. Beside good at duels and tackling too, like Ugarte or just a bit lower tackling rate.
Sum of : United need Adam Wharton more than Manuel Ugarte. Wharton can do what Ugarte is doing and more. What more? Balance, bind the defend and attack, controlling/commander and higher level of creation/better in the attack.
Football Stats doesn't show 2nd or 3rd assist. Just goals and assist. If it does. Wharton would be really high with 2nd and 3 rd assist.
Football vision and intelligence is harder to find and develop than just hard work, aggresiveness and top guts. How you scans the pitch and know where you have your teammates and been able to deliver conistent key passes/trough passes is key factor of your team consistent attacking football.
And in the end:
United had just bought to ball player in Yoro and Zirkzee.
Both of Yoro & Zirkzee = better with the ball than without = more proactive players than counter attack and chasing players
So buying another ball player in Adam Wharton just make really sense. To suit 2 previous players and Mainoo. Another player to help those players to be more and better to keep the ball in the team. And let the opponent chase the ball when needed. Like Spain in Euro 2024.
Lisandro Martinez is a baller too. But like Adam Wharton Martinez is good with tackling too. So again. Don't forget Wharton high tackling and interception rate, beside being a controlling ball player.
With Wharton United will have a really good, strong, consistent and solid central spine in :
CB : Yoro & Martinez
CM: Wharton & Mainoo
CF: HøjLund & Zirkzee
There you have + Bruno as a free CAM : at least for 5 more years
They might not be able to challenging City this year. But maybe about 2-3 years from now.
So getting Adam Wharton from Palace is really crucial decision for United. Leading United in a proactive path than a counter attack and defensive path with Ugarte. United shall be aiming for dominating football again. About 2-5 years time, against City.
Every golden era will come to an end. With Rodri and De Bruyne retirement. You will not replace those gianst of a player easily. Then it will be open to others teams to be more dominating in premier league.
Behind City now, but hopefully with addition of Wharton be ahead of City in 3-5 years time.
And Wharton is not only for long term goal and objective. Looked what he did and contribute to Palace last season. Table before and after Wharton arriving would be the opposite of a team.
Wharton will contribute to short term result and goal too. Top 4 and champion league football. Beside helping United getting closer to City and close the gap.
Maybe our top target in this position (could be Wharton) isn't available this summer, therefore we have decided to focus on signing a DM
I fully agree. We should be testing the water with Crystal Palace to see if there is a deal to be made.
Perhaps we did earlier in the summer and got told sorry he's not for sale as only just joined us
A pass is considered progressive if the distance between the starting point and the next touch is:
A.) At least 30 meters closer to the opponent’s goal if the starting and finishing points are within a team’s own half
B.) At least 15 meters closer to the opponent’s goal if the starting and finishing points are in different halves
C.) At least 10 meters closer to the opponent’s goal if the starting and finishing points are in the opponent’s half
From Wyscout
Wharton just joined Palace in Jan/Feb, they will absolutely not sell him
We need to find the next Wharton
Yes. I am worried we will bend over to PSG and pay more. But 40 million is the highest we should go
Would just be interesting to see where the initialisation generally comes from with the three of them. Wharton seems like the consummate for the position.
There’s going to be a hell of a lot of attention on Palace this season to watch him and Eze!
Perfection would be having Wharton and Mainoo, behind Bruno - with Ugarte to come on for Mainoo with 20 minutes to go and we're defending a lead and under the cosh. Branthwaite waiting to come on if Yoro or Martinez get a knock.
Pull out all the stops for those three.
Then, next summer, the two best young full-backs on the market and assess the winger situation - start thinking about who's going to replace Bruno.
Pull out all the stops for those three.
Then, next summer, the two best young full-backs on the market and assess the winger situation - start thinking about who's going to replace Bruno.
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I guess you could get a rough idea by also looking at their number of final third passes and passes in the opposition half. There are some seasonal passmaps about like this one for Wharton at Blackburn, but it takes someone having actually made the graphic and making it available.
Palace should be well worth watching for anyone this season, even without Olise. Ended last term strongly and still have loads of really good players. Christ I miss actual bloody football
I’m still on a downer about ETH, so pretty much avoiding the United forum for the most part; comfortably nestled as a transfer muppet to see out the off season, I think.I guess you could get a rough idea by also looking at their number of final third passes and passes in the opposition half. There are some seasonal passmaps about like this one for Wharton at Blackburn, but it takes someone having actually made the graphic and making it available.
Palace should be well worth watching for anyone this season, even without Olise. Ended last term strongly and still have loads of really good players. Christ I miss actual bloody football
Sad as it is, the escapism before the grind is cathartic.
“Talent scouting” at least presents a better tomorrow!
Is this still on at all?
For the people suggesting Adam Wharton as an alternative - where do you think we’re getting the money from for that deal?
He’s now in the England squad and Palace would probably want 3-4 times what they paid for him.
He’s now in the England squad and Palace would probably want 3-4 times what they paid for him.
Fabrizio Romano said it’s a big week coming up because United are working on multiple deals at once, both incoming and outgoing. Wouldn’t be surprised if this is one of them.
Let’s wait and see.
Let’s wait and see.
Agreed. Could be lot of deals.
Next week back in England and basically season is around the corner.
Jaysus, Roy Keane used to give out to players for passing it backwards and sideways.
Roy Keane was fantastic box to box midfielder.
Is he fast?
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