Manuel Ugarte | Romano - he’s signed | Awaiting Club announcement

Status
Not open for further replies.
LuckyScout78 said:
From mine personal point of views :

From a business point of view it will not be smart from Manchester United. To buy Ugarte this summer and they do consider to buy Wharton next summer or in the future. Why?

Why not smart business decisions:
From summer 2024 ------------------------------------------->To summer 2025 : Ugarte prize and marker value will only fall. Why? PSG's manager doesn't prefer him. The prize will just fall. If he just start much of the matches from the bench. Or rotating here and there.
PSG most prefer cm choices: Vitinha and Fabian Ruiz. 2 cm player that are a lot better on the ball. And the manager want a proactive set up and football. Compare to Ugarte who is most known as a top ball winner.
So paying the prize between 50-60 mill euros for cm player that the manager doesn't prefer anymore. Is a lot.

And buying Wharton next summer :
MV summer 2024: 30 mill euros---------------a regular starter for Palace and keep deliver conistent high performance----------------> summer 2025 = MV and price will just rise. Potential 50-60 mill euros summer 2025.

So potential United decision:
Ugarte summer 2024. Not loan. 50 -60 mill euros
Adam Wharton summer 2025. Palace will demand everything over 80 mill euros if Wharton keep deliver the same performance this season like he did in the last 7 league matches for Palace.
With that 2 buy = around 150 mill euros

Instead solution and decision:
Wharton 2024. 60 mill euros. Palace is a selling club. They just sold they best attacking player in Olise to Bayern Munich. So if the price is right and they are not gonna stop the player ambition to play for a top club. At the right price. They shall let the player goes.
Ugarte with a lower market value and price summer 2025. Max 40-50 mill euros
Sum of this solution : 110 mill euros.

Palace just paid 20 mill euros for Wharton in Feb this year to Blackburn. Demand 100 mill euros, just 6 months later. Is a lot. 2-3 X double/triple up the paid price from 20 mill euros should be the right price for Palace. Profit of around 40 mill euros.


And from football point of view. Personal why not smart decision? Ugarte this summer and Wharton next summer :
+ United don't have a cm player like Adam Wharton in theirs squad and team. Wharton is a deep lying controlling cm playmaker.
Mainoo is box to box cm. Mainoo has goals in his games. He shall keep playing like that.
Casemiro even at this age. Casemiro is all over the place. Sometime like Mainoo from box to box.
And McTom, Collyer, Dan Gore and Eriksen is not like Wharton.
+ But United do have a cm who a closer to Ugarte. McTom can be a good ball winner and destoyer if you command him to do that role. McFred were to DM destroyer. Suit against top teams with high line. But against parking bus and tight defenders. Team with McFred under Ole were struggling.
And Toby Collyer is good ballwinner. He just need to adapt the speed, intensity and how to dispose his energy. Not high and top energy all time. Then he will gas out really early.
Like Ipswich were high and aggresive press Liverpool in the first match. Working in first half when the energy was full and on top. Second half. Playing high line against Liverpool, then you are done.
So with aspect of the game. Type of cm player. Beside being a really good ball winner. Wharton will give United more way to play with, more strings and options to play with.
United can easily switch to 433 proactive against team United shall dominate. And be more compact with 5 men midfield. Instead of only 4 midfield in a 4411 formation.

+ Another smarter decision why go for Adam Wharton this summer? :
Wharton and Ugarte will be 2 different way of football and set up.

Ugarte = destroyer and ball winner = counter attack and transition football against top teams.
Wharton = will give and United will been able to control the ball more. Rise the ball possession. Against top teams. With 5 midfield like this:

Diallo - Bruno - Wharton(controlling deep lying playmaker) - Mainoo - Rashford + Højlund/Zirkzee.

With Ugarte for Wharton in that role will be a more counter attack set up. Clearly.


Now example with a more proactive, ball possession team is Pep and City football setup and mindset:

Instead of chasing the ball and stop opponent attack. Pep and City team will reduce opponent level of creating chances. Because you get to have the ball to create chances and goals. Pep's teams are 1-2 moves ahead of theirs opponents. Beside being really good with winning the ball back. They are so dominating with ball possesion. Not giving chances or reduce opponent chances a lot.

Instead of set up with counter attack and ball winners players. It's like stop firing with it happen.

Pep teams having the ball most of the time. Avoid the firer before it happen and appear. Some move ahead of time.

For personally. I prefer Pep way of thinking and tactic.

You use more energy to stop the firer/opponent attack. Instead you let the opponent chasing the ball. And by having the ball a lot. The chance that firer will appear are lower and lesser energy using.


And in the end : United had a different set up against City in the final and had a bit of luck :
+ Different set up : Amrabat. Amrabat was really good and big during that match
+ Lucky with the big mistake from the City player that lead to the first goal. And lead the match into a different path. United can't rely on opponent mistakes all the times. So that trophy had many others factors. Then just United counter attack set up. City mistake was just meant to happen? We never know for sure.


So that are mine personal point of view. From a business point of view and a football point of view. It just mine advices and recommendation. It's all up to Manchester United.

Yes credit to ours firefighters. But we all hope that firer will not appear. Good and smart to have players to stop counter attack. But for me, i think you a smarter. If you don't need to stop counter attack. Or at least lesser counter attack.

And if a manager is thinking about attacking attacking and proactive football = he and his club will attract best skill ful and ball players.
Compare to a manager thinking of counter attack = he will attract counter attack football players.

Example at first place Ten Hag was thinking of proactive football. He want Frenkie De Jong, Rabiot. Then he switched his mind to counter attack football = Ten Hag just attract counter attack players. Casemiro = ball winner. Mount = ball winner. Amrabat. Now Ugarte.


So that are how i see things with Pep and Ten Hag mindset. Ten Hag might switch back to more ball players in Maz and Zirkzee. But still. That process switch back to plane A. With the pressure to deliver. Not only from Ten Hag, but the new structure. Not 100 % offensive. Like Pep.

And when you attract the best ball players, always want to dominate. Think and living with it----------> dominate result = 4 leagues titles in a row. The mindset is/are the main factor.
Click to expand...
Your obsession with Wharton is just plain weird...
 
Bobski said:
Utds midfield problems last season were not down to the absence of a pure ball winner, the utterly inept shape and tactics made the job of the midfield next to impossible.

If Ten Hag goes back to that set up and expects Ugarte to cover that space Ten Hag will be sacked by Halloween and Ugarte will probably be dead
Click to expand...

This. If ten Hag puts the same pressing scheme in which Ugarte will press like crazy, but press high up in the opposition half it won't matter if he can run for 3 players, we will remain vulnerable on counter.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Or not and our midfield is fecked for the at least the first half of the season.
Click to expand...

The bigger picture is that we can’t allow ourselves to be mugged like this any longer. We’re desperate to buy a midfielder and PSG are desperate to sell an asset. We’ve made a fair offer.
 
Solo Toure said:
‘Andre is not even his name, mate’ by the way Villa brought him for £50 million. Fofana is not the profile United are looking for, as he is more of a box-to-box midfielder, if United was serious about him they’d have easily matched the €25m AC Milan spent. Finally as you mentioned, Ederson could be a similar fee as Ugarte, however looking at the key stats, Ugarte beats Ederson on most revelant metrics.

I honestly think the figure is not terrible, maybe £5-10m+ what United want to pay but give it a few months & fans will not even care about the figure. Ugarte will be key figure in the team.
Click to expand...
He isn’t talking about Onana
 
lex talionis said:
The bigger picture is that we can’t allow ourselves to be mugged like this any longer. We’re desperate to buy a midfielder and PSG are desperate to sell an asset. We’ve made a fair offer.
Click to expand...

Then we must accept that this isn't happening and move onto another target. Going into this season without another midfielder would be suicide.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
That doesn't mean anything. He didn't fail there they just want a different profile of player. Add that to the fact they are probably happy to keep him as a squad option if we don't pay what they want.

If he's worth 50m to us and if 49m is not enough for them to let him go then that is the price. Mount is a totally different situation as there are clearly definable reasons that his value has dipped and despite being a good player it was too high to begin with.
Click to expand...

is there a difference?
 
Tarrou said:
is there a difference?
Click to expand...

Yes because he did the job you would use him for well.

If we brought Zirkzee in knowing he wasn't a great goalscorer but would bring our other attackers into the game brilliantly and he did so but we changed our minds and decided we needed a pure goalscorer that wouldn't mean he failed.
 
Highfather_24 said:
Its too much because PSG paid 51M for him last summer, and now he's unwanted there. Its outrageous they want the same fee, considering they are going to start paying for him this summer anyway.

If we were in a similar position, his value would have taken a subtantial hit(think how much we would get for Mount if we tried selling him this summer).
Click to expand...
The benefit of oil state funding? Simply put, we need the player more than they care for the money.

Dubiously enforceable acronyms aside, they've just been shat on by Mbappé and Madrid so they won't be folding in a dick swinging contest any time soon, not one that boils down to money.
 
Bo_devil said:
Not having players with good technique who keep the ball, has been a long term problem, not just from last season. I can't tell you how tired I am of seeing lesser teams able to pop it around in front of us, us struggling to get it back and when we get it, just lose it again, through awful ball retention.
Click to expand...
I guess you aren‘t pining for the good old days with McT and Fred in midfield.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Yes because he did the job you would use him for well.

If we brought Zirkzee in knowing he wasn't a great goalscorer but would bring our other attackers into the game brilliantly and he did so but we changed our minds and decided we needed a pure goalscorer that wouldn't mean he failed.
Click to expand...

so what happened exactly with him at PSG?

they signed a pure DM and decided they didn't want one mid season?
 
LuckyScout78 said:
From mine personal point of views :

From a business point of view it will not be smart from Manchester United. To buy Ugarte this summer and they do consider to buy Wharton next summer or in the future. Why?

Why not smart business decisions:
From summer 2024 ------------------------------------------->To summer 2025 : Ugarte prize and marker value will only fall. Why? PSG's manager doesn't prefer him. The prize will just fall. If he just start much of the matches from the bench. Or rotating here and there.
PSG most prefer cm choices: Vitinha and Fabian Ruiz. 2 cm player that are a lot better on the ball. And the manager want a proactive set up and football. Compare to Ugarte who is most known as a top ball winner.
So paying the prize between 50-60 mill euros for cm player that the manager doesn't prefer anymore. Is a lot.

And buying Wharton next summer :
MV summer 2024: 30 mill euros---------------a regular starter for Palace and keep deliver conistent high performance----------------> summer 2025 = MV and price will just rise. Potential 50-60 mill euros summer 2025.

So potential United decision:
Ugarte summer 2024. Not loan. 50 -60 mill euros
Adam Wharton summer 2025. Palace will demand everything over 80 mill euros if Wharton keep deliver the same performance this season like he did in the last 7 league matches for Palace.
With that 2 buy = around 150 mill euros

Instead solution and decision:
Wharton 2024. 60 mill euros. Palace is a selling club. They just sold they best attacking player in Olise to Bayern Munich. So if the price is right and they are not gonna stop the player ambition to play for a top club. At the right price. They shall let the player goes.
Ugarte with a lower market value and price summer 2025. Max 40-50 mill euros
Sum of this solution : 110 mill euros.

Palace just paid 20 mill euros for Wharton in Feb this year to Blackburn. Demand 100 mill euros, just 6 months later. Is a lot. 2-3 X double/triple up the paid price from 20 mill euros should be the right price for Palace. Profit of around 40 mill euros.


And from football point of view. Personal why not smart decision? Ugarte this summer and Wharton next summer :
+ United don't have a cm player like Adam Wharton in theirs squad and team. Wharton is a deep lying controlling cm playmaker.
Mainoo is box to box cm. Mainoo has goals in his games. He shall keep playing like that.
Casemiro even at this age. Casemiro is all over the place. Sometime like Mainoo from box to box.
And McTom, Collyer, Dan Gore and Eriksen is not like Wharton.
+ But United do have a cm who a closer to Ugarte. McTom can be a good ball winner and destoyer if you command him to do that role. McFred were to DM destroyer. Suit against top teams with high line. But against parking bus and tight defenders. Team with McFred under Ole were struggling.
And Toby Collyer is good ballwinner. He just need to adapt the speed, intensity and how to dispose his energy. Not high and top energy all time. Then he will gas out really early.
Like Ipswich were high and aggresive press Liverpool in the first match. Working in first half when the energy was full and on top. Second half. Playing high line against Liverpool, then you are done.
So with aspect of the game. Type of cm player. Beside being a really good ball winner. Wharton will give United more way to play with, more strings and options to play with.
United can easily switch to 433 proactive against team United shall dominate. And be more compact with 5 men midfield. Instead of only 4 midfield in a 4411 formation.

+ Another smarter decision why go for Adam Wharton this summer? :
Wharton and Ugarte will be 2 different way of football and set up.

Ugarte = destroyer and ball winner = counter attack and transition football against top teams.
Wharton = will give and United will been able to control the ball more. Rise the ball possession. Against top teams. With 5 midfield like this:

Diallo - Bruno - Wharton(controlling deep lying playmaker) - Mainoo - Rashford + Højlund/Zirkzee.

With Ugarte for Wharton in that role will be a more counter attack set up. Clearly.


Now example with a more proactive, ball possession team is Pep and City football setup and mindset:

Instead of chasing the ball and stop opponent attack. Pep and City team will reduce opponent level of creating chances. Because you get to have the ball to create chances and goals. Pep's teams are 1-2 moves ahead of theirs opponents. Beside being really good with winning the ball back. They are so dominating with ball possesion. Not giving chances or reduce opponent chances a lot.

Instead of set up with counter attack and ball winners players. It's like stop firing with it happen.

Pep teams having the ball most of the time. Avoid the firer before it happen and appear. Some move ahead of time.

For personally. I prefer Pep way of thinking and tactic.

You use more energy to stop the firer/opponent attack. Instead you let the opponent chasing the ball. And by having the ball a lot. The chance that firer will appear are lower and lesser energy using.


And in the end : United had a different set up against City in the final and had a bit of luck :
+ Different set up : Amrabat. Amrabat was really good and big during that match
+ Lucky with the big mistake from the City player that lead to the first goal. And lead the match into a different path. United can't rely on opponent mistakes all the times. So that trophy had many others factors. Then just United counter attack set up. City mistake was just meant to happen? We never know for sure.


So that are mine personal point of view. From a business point of view and a football point of view. It just mine advices and recommendation. It's all up to Manchester United.

Yes credit to ours firefighters. But we all hope that firer will not appear. Good and smart to have players to stop counter attack. But for me, i think you a smarter. If you don't need to stop counter attack. Or at least lesser counter attack.

And if a manager is thinking about attacking attacking and proactive football = he and his club will attract best skill ful and ball players.
Compare to a manager thinking of counter attack = he will attract counter attack football players.

Example at first place Ten Hag was thinking of proactive football. He want Frenkie De Jong, Rabiot. Then he switched his mind to counter attack football = Ten Hag just attract counter attack players. Casemiro = ball winner. Mount = ball winner. Amrabat. Now Ugarte.


So that are how i see things with Pep and Ten Hag mindset. Ten Hag might switch back to more ball players in Maz and Zirkzee. But still. That process switch back to plane A. With the pressure to deliver. Not only from Ten Hag, but the new structure. Not 100 % offensive. Like Pep.

And when you attract the best ball players, always want to dominate. Think and living with it----------> dominate result = 4 leagues titles in a row. The mindset is/are the main factor.
Click to expand...
Feck cheating Pep, it is boring turd on a stick football.

Wharton wouldn‘t move for 60 mil, nice try.
 
NLunited said:
Feck cheating Pep, it is boring turd on a stick football.

Wharton wouldn‘t move for 60 mil, nice try.
Click to expand...
So many words based on a totally unsound premise - that we can afford Wharton this summer - no chance we can swing the £100m that Palace would want.
 
Ugarte's form fell off in the second part of the season, coinciding with Vitinha's rise. There was no way back after that.

BTW, Vitinha was another player I hoped we would buy, but didnt happen for whatever reason. Lovely player to watch.
 
lex talionis said:
The bigger picture is that we can’t allow ourselves to be mugged like this any longer. We’re desperate to buy a midfielder and PSG are desperate to sell an asset. We’ve made a fair offer.
Click to expand...
Then we shouldn't have spent months negotiating with PSG.

And no, it's not I'm somehow wiser than all our execs, it must be the case that we want that very specific player not "a" midfielder. If we do, tough shit, there's no amount of social media planted stories of deception/alt targets that will take us anywhere else than paying what PSG want.

Feck knows what we talked about with Mendes a few months ago. It seems clear one way around all this was holding them up on Neves, but I suppose once they gave us Ugarte so we would piss off the shitstorm on here would have been legendary and the kid's reception somewhat depressing.

I'd argue Mendes has a lot of explaining to do if we are going to trust him much at all going forward.
 
Lu Tze said:
So many words based on a totally unsound premise - that we can afford Wharton this summer - no chance we can swing the £100m that Palace would want.
Click to expand...
It‘s like selling Mainoo for 60, never gonna happen.
 
BluesJr said:
Wanted a there we land today. Annoying.
Click to expand...

Yeah wish I knew what was holding this up, hoping it all breaks on matchday like we saw two weeks ago. My gut feeling is that it goes quiet until next week then explodes Monday or Tuesday
 
Last edited:
I’m going back and forth on whether this will be a good signing or not. Still, we’ve been crying out for a pure DM during the McFred years. Casemiro was an expensive short-term solution. Ugarte is a good age so let’s hope he proves to be exactly what we need.
 
The White Pele said:
I’m going back and forth on whether this will be a good signing or not. Still, we’ve been crying out for a pure DM during the McFred years. Casemiro was an expensive short-term solution. Ugarte is a good age so let’s hope he proves to be exactly what we need.
Click to expand...

I still feel he will be, however I can also understand where people are coming from when they say we need a ball playing midfielder too
 
Judas said:
And he played well :)
Click to expand...
That's the thing, he didn't. He was terrible - really, fecking terrible, an absolute liability - against Newcastle and Milan. This being PSG, those were pretty much the only games where his performances mattered.

Luis Enrique being Luis Enrique did the rest. For what is worth he was very good in the first game against BvB and binning a player over 4 poor games is insane, but here we are
 
Can't find the message but someone said that after Nasser AK feeling humiliated by the whole Mbappé saga, PSG is probably entrenched in getting paid their price. I'll tend to agree and that's a not a new attitude from QSI/PSG either, they unceremoniously shipped one of their most important players legacy wise and fan favorite to a Gulf club to inject 40m€ in the finances. There's plenty of deadwood floating in "the loft" (Draxler to name one) and though they calmed down on that by recruiting better -plus looking tame compared to Chelsea-, they'll have no remorse having Ugarte in the reserves for most games if they want so.

PSG is suspected of playing a little loose with their books too (they declare crazy revenues from tickets... They did essentially create a reselling site and are taking their % off it) so they'll welcome any FFP profit they can get.

Who knows what exactly they're negotiating because the broad lines have been set for a month now.

Will look a little silly if we just cough up (though in reality maybe on better terms for the structure) but will be forgotten quickly if Ugarte performs up to expectations. At the end of the day even if overpaid we're still looking at "only" 50m£ and not 70-100 that seems to be where the flops get catastrophic.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Then we must accept that this isn't happening and move onto another target. Going into this season without another midfielder would be suicide.
Click to expand...

It’s my understanding that we have other targets in queue. Maybe that’s real, maybe not, but if we’re betting it all on Ugarte and PSG break us we’re setting ourselves up to the United tax again and again.
 
bb8 said:
You have to know the points you're making aren't even counterarguments, right? It seems like you're arguing in bad faith here, so this'll be my last reply on the matter. Ridiculous to have to go round-and-round on what's fundamentally a quite simple point.
  1. I'm saying that £5M is his current wage and while he's on loan that's what he'll continue to be paid. Even if the loan fee were £8M though, that doesn't create extra costs, since that'd be his wage on a new deal
  2. I used a 4 year contract rather than a 5 year contract to keep the overall comparison like-for-like (5 years in each comparison). We probably will give him a 5 year deal at the end of the loan term, but that will take over overall time with him on the squad to 6 years. In that case, the average cost per year will actually drop, so I figured someone like you would then complain I was using an unfair comparison....
Since it appears this math requires some strong hand-holding, I'll do it again. This time we can do it your way and assume it's an £8M loan fee and a 5 year contract afterwards:

Loan with obligation to buy:

24/25 season: £8M loan fee. After the year we pay £50M transfer fee and Ugarte signs a 5 year contract thereafter for £8M wages a year
25/26 season: £8M wages: £10M fee amortization
26/27 season: £8M wages: £10M fee amortization
27/28 season: £8M wages: £10M fee amortization
28/29 season: £8M wages: £10M fee amortization
29/30 season: £8M wages: £10M fee amortization
Total cost: £98M; £16.33M per season

Immediate purchase for £50M transfer fee and Ugarte signs a 5 year contract thereafter for £8M wages a year:

24/25 season: £8M wages: £10M fee amortization
25/26 season: £8M wages: £10M fee amortization
26/27 season: £8M wages: £10M fee amortization
27/28 season: £8M wages: £10M fee amortization
28/29 season: £8M wages: £10M fee amortization
Total cost: £90M; £18M per season

As you can see, in this case it's cheaper per season to do the loan-with-obligation (£16.33M vs £18M per season). Yes, the total cost is higher for loan with obligation, but we get to retain him for an extra season.
Click to expand...

Jesus Christ

This PSR shit has made the caf accountant land.
 
Solo Toure said:
‘Andre is not even his name, mate’ by the way Villa brought him for £50 million. Fofana is not the profile United are looking for, as he is more of a box-to-box midfielder, if United was serious about him they’d have easily matched the €25m AC Milan spent. Finally as you mentioned, Ederson could be a similar fee as Ugarte, however looking at the key stats, Ugarte beats Ederson on most revelant metrics.

I honestly think the figure is not terrible, maybe £5-10m+ what United want to pay but give it a few months & fans will not even care about the figure. Ugarte will be key figure in the team.
Click to expand...


I was talking about Andre who plays for Fluminense. He is highly rated in South American football. Seems like the type of player Brighton sign and then Chelsea go and pay 100 million a season later.
 
Just seen all of Michael Carrick’s goals on MUTV earlier . He was severely underestimated, he’d walk on this team now
 
The-Mezzala said:
I was talking about Andre who plays for Fluminense. He is highly rated in South American football. Seems like the type of player Brighton sign and then Chelsea go and pay 100 million a season later.
Click to expand...
Doesn't he have an exorbitant release clause though ? Or am I confusing him with another (Rios ?)
 
Plastic Evra said:
Doesn't he have an exorbitant release clause though ? Or am I confusing him with another (Rios ?)
Click to expand...

Not heard anything on a release clause, but Liverpool and Fulham had £30 million bids accepted. He even rejected the Scousers last season which is another bonus if we signed him. Wasn’t Rios valued at something mental like £100 million by his club which is why he is not linked with anyone after getting lots of buzz after the Copa.
 
giorno said:
That's the thing, he didn't. He was terrible - really, fecking terrible, an absolute liability - against Newcastle and Milan. This being PSG, those were pretty much the only games where his performances mattered.

Luis Enrique being Luis Enrique did the rest. For what is worth he was very good in the first game against BvB and binning a player over 4 poor games is insane, but here we are
Click to expand...

PSG were dog shit all over the pitch in those games, in fairness. Especially the Newcastle one, which was just a tragic little performance.
 
Highfather_24 said:
Ugarte's form fell off in the second part of the season, coinciding with Vitinha's rise. There was no way back after that.

BTW, Vitinha was another player I hoped we would buy, but didnt happen for whatever reason. Lovely player to watch.
Click to expand...
Was rumoured to be one of our FDJ alternatives .
 
The-Mezzala said:
Not heard anything on a release clause, but Liverpool and Fulham had £30 million bids accepted. He even rejected the Scousers last season which is another bonus if we signed him. Wasn’t Rios valued at something mental like £100 million by his club which is why he is not linked with anyone after getting lots of buzz after the Copa.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I'm probably confusing it with Rios whose club is valuing him at 90m or so.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.