Yeah, but they’d win so many final third turnovers.
Manuel Ugarte | Romano - he’s signed | Awaiting Club announcement
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Yeah but we have to live with FFP and PSR so it is anything but, you have to play the game, to suggest otherwise is nonsense
Where in the back arse of nowhere is this said?
You're comparing different types of players. Of course someone like Onana wins a much higher percentage of duels, because he goes in for way, way less of them, because he is a sitting midfielder, not an aggressive, pressing ball winner.
Ugarte:
Onana:
Of course you're going to have a much higher percentage of challenges won if you only try to tackle 1.7 dribblers per 90 instead of 4.5.
The concern with Ugarte's relatively low duel winning percentage is best put into context by these numbers:
These are the numbers for Kante at Chelsea while he was unquestionably world class and arguably the best ball winner of all time. 43% win rate. Same as Ugarte, playing the same role.
My point was the data tends to back up what the eyes tell you when watching Ugarte. None of these graphs or data sets are fool proof and none of them mean a player can’t improve or regresss. But we literally need a DM. The assumption is Ugarte plays in front of Casemiro as a true DM, so IF he’s going to be that aggressive as the further back of a midfield 3 with Mainoo/Mount and Bruno then he can’t afford to miss out on 50% of his challenges.
Yeah the comparison was more just to add context to how he stacks up vs that top DM’s of our league in the same metrics. None of this is to say I don’t think he can improve, just that I’m dubious as to whether his style of player is what we need as a lone DM.
I don't care much about that, personally
if we were offloading a player our manager didn't want and we got the same as we paid it would be an incredible deal
Our PSR is fine, its our cashflow which is a bottleneck. When we are talking about Mount being a 55M flop, or Antony being a 80M flop, does it matter if we have structured to pay that deal over 5years?
Yeah, I looked up the past Tweets/reports from both Plettenberg and L'Équipe, and yeah, €70m was indeed their asking price when United first inquired about Ugarte. It looks like they brought that down a bit once they brought João Neves in but haven't gone any lower than €60m so as to avoid making a loss.
Rodri arguably isn't a DM though, if you look at his stats. He plays there but City just dominate possession so he doesn't have to defend.
Brilliant ball player, but he fits City perfectly, if he was at Dortmund or somewhere it would be a different story.
City just are brilliant getting the right players for how they want to play, and it elevates those players to a new level.
Compare Rodri to Frankie De Jong, who isn't a DM.
Is Rodri really a DM? no.
100% agreed with this, finally I see someone else saying this on here. Rodri is basically an #8 these days. Yes, he's amazing there, but this misconception that he's the best DM in the world, and by far as well, is just ridiculous. None of the other #6es he gets regularly compared to get anywhere near as much protection as he does. This "best DM in the world" conversation basically only started when Pep started putting Stones in midfield to help Rodri. Rodri is one of the best double-pivot players around, and he does defend when he has to, but he's not a traditional #6 at all.
Yea I just can't shake this feeling of overpaying. If we are spending €60m, I'd rather get a more well rounded player but that's just my preference though. I'm not saying Ugarte is a bad player, just that I don't think he's worth that much.
I’m not saying it hasn’t. And I was never implying that our back room hasn’t done all of the due diligence required. I was merely stating my own reservations as someone who’s watched/researched him a fair amount since he first popped up on our radar and how he fits into our own team.
And in general I sort of hate the attitude of “the club knows better than us they’ve done all the work etc.” because we’ve seen clubs time and again feck up transfers and especially in the modern day I think 3rd party individuals and even your average fan has far more ability to watch and analyze football and form decently educated opinions considering the absurd amount of information available to them. Compared to even 10-15 years ago, you have pages of advanced data and stats, full 90’s of every match in any semi decent league available, individual cut ups of a players every action in any given game from even their earliest years, and more. It’s perfectly reasonable to be skeptical of a certain move a club makes if you’ve also done the work to form an educated opinion yourself. I just have an issue with those that will watch someone once in a random UCL game on TV and say their shite and defend that opinion with their life
No doubt Neves would have been a better buy
That’s not true at all though, Rodri was rated as one of the best in the world from his second season at City on. Pep didn’t do the Stones gimmick until late in the 22/23 season anyways.
The truth is Rodri is basically elite in whatever deeper midfield role you need him in. It’s why he’s arguably the best player in the world right now and is largely considered a generational player.
Completely agree. And he's like 4 years younger than Ugarte too.
There's still time. At the moment, there's no agreement on the terms; United and PSG are just getting closer with their respective demands. However, don't expect United to get Ugarte for less than €50m as the base price.
Look I’m not saying Neves doesn’t have the potential to be a top midfielder but at the current point in time we need someone shielding the ball four and a better tackler/ball winner rather than a deeper lying midfielder i.e Rodri in that #6 position. We are open right now in the middle during games and Neves wouldn’t solve that problem. Ugarte is better suited to that role CURRENTLY than Neves is.
For fun I included Wharton on this one to show why those of us who've watched him a good bit rate him so highly and want him here (I know there's been recent sentiment that's he's way too overhyped). A mobile, very good passer who also thrives in his defensive work is the ideal partner for Mainoo in a midfield.
Whartons 58.6 attempted forward passes with 22.1% being successful means 12.9 successful forward passes per game and 45.7 losses of possession.
Ugartes 27.9 attempted forward passes with 45% being successful means 12.5 successful forward passes per game and. 15.4 losses of possession.
Yet everyone seems to think Whartons progressive passing is a big advantage he holds over Ugarte?
Takes two seconds to not make yourself look like an idiot.
Above shows a comparison of Ugarte to the other "top" DM's in the league (Included Casemiro's "good" season), along with another player who could have been a potential DM target for us. Ugarte (as I said before) presses like a maniac but loses out on duels more than any of the rest of them, and isn't really going to contribute much outside of his defensive work. He's also not giving you any sort of aerial presence either, which on it's own isn't a huge deal but when mixed with him being hit or miss in 50/50's tends to raise more red flags.
The issue stats don't take into account are the tactics that the teams that those players play for as well as the role of the player in that team. Would be interesting to see similar stats for Ugarte when he was at Sporting to see if its similar as it seems there he had a bit more freedom.
He’s never in a million years a €60m player
Takes two seconds to not make yourself look like an idiot.
Above shows a comparison of Ugarte to the other "top" DM's in the league (Included Casemiro's "good" season), along with another player who could have been a potential DM target for us. Ugarte (as I said before) presses like a maniac but loses out on duels more than any of the rest of them, and isn't really going to contribute much outside of his defensive work. He's also not giving you any sort of aerial presence either, which on it's own isn't a huge deal but when mixed with him being hit or miss in 50/50's tends to raise more red flags.
https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...3-2024&player_id6=4d224fe8&p6yrfrom=2022-2023
It seems the stat is different between two websites..
And i don't like this 7 stats chart which showing 5 items of progressive passing/carrying and only 2 items of defensive..
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+ The price for Neves is higher (with the Renato Sanches deal) than Ugarte's.
I doubt we could/would have payed 80-90 for him.
Ugarte, Yoro, De Ligt, Zirkzee, Mazraoui and maybe maybe another midfielder (Back-up for Mainoo) would be a 10/10 first transfer window for INEOS.
If there’s not much difference, then that means you’ve seen it though, so I assume can still post Ugarte at sporting vs neves and benfica
You want two 19 year olds in Neves and Mainoo in the United midfield? It's not the right time to be playing too much youth together.
not even close. we couldn't clear the obvious deadwood for starters. we're marching into new season with 2 (two) fit fullbacks and two other who played combined 12 games last season, both left backs..
If they are good enough I don't see why not.
Have you seen both of them play? Wharton's passing is miles better than Ugarte's. Don't need the stats to back it up.
You're the one that needs the cope seemingly.
Same people that are now in charge of transfers?
FFP is important no?
Exactly… 53/47 is so 2023.
No aerial presence is a concern. Maybe Onana would have been a better option?
One of the journalists said that guardiola rates PSGs Vitiniha as the most unique midfielder in world football. Able to play 10 / 8 / 6 at an elite level. If they could buy anyone to swap game time with Rodri (and give him some rest), Vitiniha would be their choice. That's some praise seeing how special rodri is.
It's interesting that PSG have suddenly decided to reward Vitiniha with a new contract...
We are well clear in FFP terms, its not a bottle neck for us.
"Its not me, its you"
Brilliant, top retort
Both Yoro (~62+8M EUR) and Ugarte (60M EUR) are moderate overpays for me. I really like both and would be really glad to have both in the squad but we can't claim a successful negotiation or anything close to that.
Ultimately if they get it right, no one will remember the fee. If they end up being the wrong signings for any number of reasons - off field drama (Antony / Greenwood), discipline (Sancho), injuries (Mount), performance (Antony, Sancho) the fees we paid will be a source of much criticism towards the club.
It seems like Onana / Felix vs Ugarte will be a talking point through out the season.
Ultimately if they get it right, no one will remember the fee. If they end up being the wrong signings for any number of reasons - off field drama (Antony / Greenwood), discipline (Sancho), injuries (Mount), performance (Antony, Sancho) the fees we paid will be a source of much criticism towards the club.
It seems like Onana / Felix vs Ugarte will be a talking point through out the season.
I’m actually excited to have a proper ball winner in the side.
Talking being one dimensional doesn’t really concern me much. If he’s one of the best at what he does, it’s going to improve us a lot.
If our full backs offer enough going forward, then having somebody like Ugarte to win the ball and leave the build up to other players, will give us plenty of options.
People wanting Neves just sounds more like flavour of the month. He’s not what we need and wouldn’t work with what we already have.
Benfica are also the masters of selling absolute hype jobs as well, so people want Neves for his reputation alone.
Talking being one dimensional doesn’t really concern me much. If he’s one of the best at what he does, it’s going to improve us a lot.
If our full backs offer enough going forward, then having somebody like Ugarte to win the ball and leave the build up to other players, will give us plenty of options.
People wanting Neves just sounds more like flavour of the month. He’s not what we need and wouldn’t work with what we already have.
Benfica are also the masters of selling absolute hype jobs as well, so people want Neves for his reputation alone.
Probably overpaying by about £10 million or so but I'm fine with it. Under the old regime we would probably have paid £70 million.
Side by side comparisons of Neves 23/24 v Ugarte 22/23
Those defensive percentiles!
Mate this is percentiles. Not raw stats
Personally don’t think Yoro and sugary deals are remotely comparable. Yoro is largely considered the best CB prospect in the sport. He’s the type of player that if he does what we think he will he’ll be on the team sheet for a decade.
Ugarte is most likely a cog in the squad for what he does and doesn’t bring.
You don't think he's a starter?
Yeah I love Vitinha. PSG have the makings of the BITW midfield for the near future if WZE keeps ascending. Those 2 with Neves is unreal as a combo.
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