Amrabat will come on the cheap and showed his ability the last month of the season. It may come as a shock to many of you, but sometimes you can’t judge a player on one season. Amrabat would be a useful squad player and provides us some much needed depth at DM where it appears Casemiro is good as gone.
Manuel Ugarte | Romano - he’s signed | Awaiting Club announcement
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25m euros is not on the cheap, so if we can we should look for someone else
I'm in this camp.
Can't help but be a little disappointed that this is the only type of midfielder we seem to be targeting (Onana, Neves etc the other options). It tells me that ETH will use the same midfield set-up he used for majority of last season with Mainoo and one of these guys in a double pivot and Bruno ahead of them. I was hoping we would look for a deep lying play maker as we need to improve our passing from the midfield and look for more control. We seem to be committing to transition football that we tried and failed with last season. Hopefully, this guy or Onana would be far better in the middle paired with Mainoo then Casemiro, McTom or Amrabat were last season. Otherwise our midfield would be as open as it was last season and teams will run through it with ease.
I think it will be ugarte or Amrabat but not both.
What I like about the players we have been linked with recently i.e. Neves, Ugrate is they are mentally strong, determined personalities. We need more of those at the club. Raise the bar on the pitch and training ground.
Agreed, it's pretty much only Licha and Kambwala that are really proactive in their defending/pressing. We need people who will pounce on mistakes and sniff out opportunities/danger on the pitch better. I don't mind a few reds if it also leads us to turning over possession quicker from opponents and leading to more opportunities for attackers.
The manager hardly picked him, even with limited options in midfield. He’d be a pretty pointless signing and most likely would be deadwood we want rid of within 12 months. 25m certainly isn’t cheap based on what we saw from him, that money needs to be put towards a much better player.
I know what you mean but it is far too easy to bypass our entire midfield and we really lack aggression and physicality in the middle of the pitch.
Its 25m euros mate ie 20m
How well do our resident urugayan residents rate him, his ceiling, his strengths and weaknesses etc etc.
This guy took the DM spot from Palhinha in Sporting which caused the latter to want to leave and then went to Fulham for only 20m. If Palhinha did fine in PL, I am sure Ugarte will do better. As long as we can land him for less than 50m I am more than happy with this signing.
There is simply no point in having an entire midfield trio of progressive passers without anyone that is capable of winning the ball back. Ugarte is top 1 percentile in terms of tackles won and ball recoveries while being top 4 percentile in interceptions. He will definitely provide a strong base for the other 2 midfielder to make their progressive passes. This isn't your FIFA game where you just keep spamming through pass with every midfielder and the ones with better passing and vision stats will be able to put a good ball through. Balance is vital, and our squad last season has none of that - one of the main reason being Casemiro's steep decline in terms of ball recoveries and interceptions won (almost halved compared to 22/23). Casemiro also has poor discipline with his passing with us - successful passing percentage of 80%, while Ugarte is at 91.5%. Ugarte keeps his passes simple and helps the midfield to continue ticking.
A lot here kept saying that Onana is the better DM, but Onana's defensive stats doesn't even come close to Ugarte's, despite playing for a team that will be doing way more defending than PSG in Ligue 1. Here is a comparison of them using percentile ranking:
Tackling - Ugarte 99-92 Onana
Interceptions - Ugarte 96-49 Onana
Aerials - Ugarte 37-94 Onana
Passing - Ugarte 95-57 Onana
Carries - Ugarte 91-29 Onana
Recoveries - Ugarte 99-87 Onana
Other than having superior Aerial prowess, he is losing in every other department (some not even close) to Ugarte. Onana feels more like a box to box midfielder to me anyway instead of a DM, so this comparison isn't fair to him either.
There is simply no point in having an entire midfield trio of progressive passers without anyone that is capable of winning the ball back. Ugarte is top 1 percentile in terms of tackles won and ball recoveries while being top 4 percentile in interceptions. He will definitely provide a strong base for the other 2 midfielder to make their progressive passes. This isn't your FIFA game where you just keep spamming through pass with every midfielder and the ones with better passing and vision stats will be able to put a good ball through. Balance is vital, and our squad last season has none of that - one of the main reason being Casemiro's steep decline in terms of ball recoveries and interceptions won (almost halved compared to 22/23). Casemiro also has poor discipline with his passing with us - successful passing percentage of 80%, while Ugarte is at 91.5%. Ugarte keeps his passes simple and helps the midfield to continue ticking.
A lot here kept saying that Onana is the better DM, but Onana's defensive stats doesn't even come close to Ugarte's, despite playing for a team that will be doing way more defending than PSG in Ligue 1. Here is a comparison of them using percentile ranking:
Tackling - Ugarte 99-92 Onana
Interceptions - Ugarte 96-49 Onana
Aerials - Ugarte 37-94 Onana
Passing - Ugarte 95-57 Onana
Carries - Ugarte 91-29 Onana
Recoveries - Ugarte 99-87 Onana
Other than having superior Aerial prowess, he is losing in every other department (some not even close) to Ugarte. Onana feels more like a box to box midfielder to me anyway instead of a DM, so this comparison isn't fair to him either.
I think PSG want a verratti
Because he the last game where we actually played the way Eth wants us to play , Newcastle at home , that was his best game and despite what the formation said , he was the lone 6 deepest man . He did it well , and that's one of the very few times he's played that role. It was also evident that the hole wasn't there so much .
The Brighton game wasn't how we want to play , it was a dress rehearsal for the system against city .
We won't get a running machine, great age for position , back up 6 / option who is now acclimatized for less .
Because he the last game where we actually played the way Eth wants us to play , Newcastle at home , that was his best game and despite what the formation said , he was the lone 6 deepest man . He did it well , and that's one of the very few times he's played that role. It was also evident that the hole wasn't there so much .
The Brighton game wasn't how we want to play , it was a dress rehearsal for the system against city .
We won't get a running machine, great age for position , back up 6 / option who is now acclimatized for less .
Agree being alongside Mainoo is not the same as Valverde. But then, the issue would be Mainoo.
If we expect him to develop into someone capable of playing in a double pivot, then Ugarte is as solid an all-terrain partner as we could get for him. That's where I'm at. Not overly optimistic, but it would be criminal to give up on it altogether.
If we don't, then Mainoo should play further up, be it alongside Bruno or with him as false 9, with Rashford and Garnacho either side.
In that scenario our most credible candidate for the two double pivot slots is Amrabat. God, I miss Djemba-Djemba, two birds one stone.
It would more likely have to be a three man midfield with a single pivot, in which case I'd have Ugarte over Amrabat. I don't not rate him, but I wouldn't go into the season with that as Plan A.
I can see Ugarte and Licha working pretty well together and would be more focused on getting the right CB partner than another midfielder for a double pivot.
I think a loan with option to buy for Ugarte is the most sensible decision given he's not an ideal fit for the 6 role. I would also prefer Amadou Onana like you, and even then, I would rather go and get Lucas Gourna-Douth than Ugarte. That being said, if Ugarte is the CM/DM candidate, I dont think we can go for Branthwaite as RCB. We have to target someone like Diomande or Antonio Silva, who have line breaking passing ability. I like Ezeqiuel Fernandez's profile, I just worry about his speed and athleticism. Given that Mainoo is also not fast, we should avoid a one paced midfield.
The mental gymnastics people have been doing the last few months
Or maybe because as soon as we reverted to a better system, Amrabat also looked like a much better player suddenly? But it wasn't just him either.
Bad systems can make great players look awful, and good systems can make decent players look world class. It's pointless to judge any United player based on last season.
But he isn't a lone DM, and we really need that type of player, especially with Casemiro probably on his way out.
Agreed. I’d prefer someone in the mould of Rodri. Who can dictate the tempo and control games.
I'm not sure I can consider Rodri a lone DM these days, as Pep always plays a CB next to him...however, I agree that someone like him would be much better behind Mainoo and Bruno in a midfield trio and he's much more suited to playing #6 in a 4-3-3 than Ugarte would be.
It also depends on if ETH is sticking with 4-3-3 or going 4-2-3-1. He might want a double pivot in which case Ugarte could work alongside Mainoo.
Ugarte is a top, top defensive midfielder. He is everywhere. Better and younger than Palhinha. Palhinha was his substitute at Sporting. If you sell Casemiro for good money and buy Ugarte you make a wonderful deal.
Issue with what you’re saying is twofold:
1. Ten Hag is being retained and extended, so there’s 0 chance after an entire season that he suddenly realizes he’d rather control games.
2. Proficient progressive passers from deep that can also compete at the highest level physically don’t come around often, and when they do it’s at an absurd price point.
I think that could work as well...but maybe it would have some limitations.
Preferring that is all well and good...there's just no one actually capable of playing that role.
Loan with obligation at 40m sounds reasonable. He's a very good player, skilled in what we are missing and the right age profile.
Seems like we are very skint. Putting bids in for players at 25m. I mean it shows we don’t want to get robbed from now on but I highly doubt we’re signing anyone under 50m nowadays unless they have a release clause.
We're overdoing it a bit I feel. We're not that skint and every club has an army of accountants these days, so how much money could we theoretically afford to spend this season is an easy question to answer for them.
They need to get on with it and get players in by pre-season time. Let them move, adjust to the new location, understand the tactics and role etc. Otherwise it'll be November before we hit form.
Agree on the first. Was still hoping that after his style of play completely bombed last season something will change. I guess not.
I don't buy that. Carrick was not the most physical player and he was the mainstay of our midfield for many years.
Carrick was more than mobile enough and read the game at almost a Busquets level, which made up for not being physically dominant. But Michael Carrick's aren't just readily available on the market, that guy was one of the best holding midfielders of his time.
They paid 50m for him and already want to move him on. For an initial bid its probably about right
Carrick wasn't the most nimble, but yes his reading of the game and passing were superb. I think the most underrated English player during his time.
That Wharton kids look good. He can be an option. Our scouts identified Caceido, too bad we didn't pull the trigger on him before he went to Brighton. I am sure they are others in the South American market that we can unearth.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind Ugarte if we were changing out midfield set-up to a 433 from 4231 with a #10. However, I am not a fan of a double pivot without even one good creative passer amongst the two.
Disagree with this. If those numbers are real (and let's be honest I'm sure they're plucked out of thin air), then I think an initial £25m bid is fine. Next bid will be £30m plus add-ons, lots of press, player now really sitting with the idea, his agent perhaps starting to exert some pressure. Probably we end up with £35-40m plus add-ons, which is a sensible reduction of their initial £50m starting position. And in my opinion, good value for Ugarte.
When you look at it like that. That would be decent.
Agreed. Besides one Onana at the club is bad enough, don't want another Onana.
We’ll get absolutely nowhere if we think we are going to turn this squad into an all conquering one with only 25m signings. And because I doubt we are that deluded, I doubt this is all true at all.
Wharton is ideal, but CP won't ever sell him any time soon and when they do it won't be less than 100m.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying those types of players aren't out there, I'm just saying as a club you'll have to risk it on "unproven" types that fans hate because profiles like the one you're describing that can play DM while also being highly techincal simply aren't sold by bigger clubs, and it if they are it's for monster fees.
As far as Ugarte goes, I think he's fine but I'm not sure as a lone 6 if he's the right profile.
We should just pay up before someone serious like bayern swoop in and get it done within hours
We have a history of overpaying. I think we are just setting the bar low with our first bids to shake off the notion we are going to pay whatever. No one expects first bids to be accepted.
I think Onana would be very good and he again showed today that he's technically good in possession and if you look at the numbers between himself and Tielemans via the statistics from the game against Ukraine, then not only was Onana far more involved as far as touches of the ball are concerned he also beat Tielemans for long ball completions and also showed higher technical security in possession with a higher pass completion at 93% compared to Tielemans 86% all while being more involved in the game in comparison and also playing with more courage as far as playing the more riskier passes. And then on top of all that, Onana was also much better in the duels out of possession. But I think Everton's asking price will likely be too much and we probably won't pursue the deal.
Lucas Gourna-Douath is a player I've watched for a few years now. And I first brought him up on here when he was playing in France for Saint Ettiene. If you want a player with a high physical and athletic level whilst also having potential on the ball, then he's a pretty sensible option to go for. He'd be cheaper in comparison Ugarte and for me has bigger potential and can also be utilised at CB. He's still 20 years old but I don't think he'd cost a lot and I feel Salzburg could well deal around €30m which would be a considerable profit on a player that they reportedly paid €13m for as a young teen.
If you have Ezequiel Fernandez along with Kobbie Mainoo in the team and they're backed up by the pace and power of players like Lucas Gourna-Douath and Branthwaite or someone like Odilon Kossounou, then I think we would have the right balance of pace, power, athleticism and technical quality which would help us progress as a team. Kossounou himself is a extremely dangerous player on the ball due to the high volume of vertical passes he can thread through the lines and his pace and power is a bonus on top of that.
I think also one of the key aspects of a holding midfielder in the game today is that he shouldn't really be expected to play in a single pivot but rather the double pivot should always be the priority. And the only difference between the holding player's role now compared to how it used to be before is that the holding midfielder still stays positionally disciplined but now you have moving parts where either the additional midfielder drops deep next to the holding midfielder to form a double pivot in the build up phase and once you have progressed the ball via the deeper build up, the fullback then drops in next to the holding midfieder after the other midfielder has vacated the space and advanced forward. That's then referred to as the box midfield which unfortunately we couldn't get going because our CBs were reluctant to step up into the vacated space hence the likes of Diogo Dalot were then confused whether to stay or go, which he mentions in the link below about the CBs not pushing up.
https://x.com/EthanTaIks/status/1769725116357730443?t=mLkiVQUhSfhF9tBxafBBMA&s=1
He was shite for the vast majority of the season and shouldn’t be signed in my opinion. 25m plus whatever signing clauses is a lot of money.
Thanks for the FA cup game but send the bugger back. Put it this way if we don’t sign him there won’t be any other serious club in for him this summer.
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