Manuel Ugarte | Romano - he’s signed | Awaiting Club announcement

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Berbaclass said:
Been thinking this myself. On current form would he even start?

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The idea is to have 3 quality players for the 2 deep midfield positions. Neither Casemiro or Mainoo can play the minutes they'd currently be expected to. Ugarte gives us a high level player to rotate with them and share the minutes, go in based on form, and be a longer term ball winner/DM.

Generally you want 1 high level competition player for the positions that get a lot of rotation due to position difficulty or how difficult it is with stamina. Wings, midfield, fullback are probably the main 3 that you need a high level squad player.
 
bosnian_red said:
The idea is to have 3 quality players for the 2 deep midfield positions. Neither Casemiro or Mainoo can play the minutes they'd currently be expected to. Ugarte gives us a high level player to rotate with them and share the minutes, go in based on form, and be a longer term ball winner/DM.
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How dare we plan for the longer term future of our squad. Ugarte will have a season and a half to prove himself, just in time for when Casemiro's contract ends. If he isn't good enough, he'll be sold or be backup to a new DM signing (or Collyer). If Casemiro manages to find a new club next season, we'll also be under less pressure to sign 2 DMs in a window.

No issues with such a sensible strategy, keeping in mind that we're also no longer paying £200K+/w wages on clearly non-elite players like Mount, Sancho, Antony and so on.
 
Need to bring him in. Thing with casemiro is if he misses games through suspension or injury he takes couple of games to get up to speed we seen that in his 1st season.

Long season with Europe and domestic cups, can't expect Casemiro and Manoo to play every game and same intensity, can't be done.

We need quality players to come in if were to rotate.

Think we need 2 midfielders with bit of quality.
 
I think it is a fair question around if Casemiro has another good year in him and if so does that make Ugarte worthwhile.

Clearly there are elements of his game that PSG are not happy with if they are willing to sell him after a year, are those issues likely to become a similar sticking point at Utd meaning a large fee for a stopgap until a more rounded player becomes available?
 
GaryLifo said:
I recon it'll take about 20 minutes of this guy in a United shirt for me to take a huge shine to him.

I was always gutted we missed out on Mascherano back in the day, and I think this guy is similar
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He is the kind of player you will love 9 out of 10 matches - and in the 10th he gets the red card or gives a penalty :)
 
Bobski said:
I think it is a fair question around if Casemiro has another good year in him and if so does that make Ugarte worthwhile.

Clearly there are elements of his game that PSG are not happy with if they are willing to sell him after a year, are those issues likely to become a similar sticking point at Utd meaning a large fee for a stopgap until a more rounded player becomes available?
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We need quality depth though, we saw last season the extreme drop off in quality between our first choice players and the backups we have. We've made good progress in adding quality depth in forward positions and in defence, but our midfield is still threadbare, especially as Casemiro is too old to be able to cover the ground we need him to without his fitness and quality dropping off.
 
If Casemiro is 25 and in his prime, then yes he can certainly play every game. We need one more player in there though i’m not sure Ugarte is the right one, because i have never seen him play but i do trust the club’s scouting department now
 
Judas said:
Even if Casemiro can turn back time and have a good season, we need a squad of good options so he doesn't get burnt out by christmas.
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And there will be games or periods of games where having legs along side the experience of Casemiro will be the play.
 
Quality control
How stupid the club would have to be to think we'll be ok with 32 year old Casemiro the only defensive midfielder in the squad for a 50+ game season, because he played ok in game 1 against Fulham?

Forgetting how bad he was last season, he also missed 18 games through injury.
 
Casemiro is looking good because he is playing his natural position again. As long as ETH sticks to that and doesn't try him playing b2b (his legs haven't gone, he never had them in the 1st place), then he will be fine.

We will still sign Ugurte though, the depth of the midfield is not good enough.
 
Pronewbie said:
I think Casemiro's physicality has waned a fair bit with age especially when he has to do a fair bit of running before a duel. It's still good in short bursts like during set pieces but Ugarte is more athletic. Both are incredible at interceptions but Casemiro's is like a magnet possibly due to experience.

Ugarte's long and mid range passing accuracy is close to 99th percentile yeah? I think he can do a decent approximation of it at the very least - saw it a bit during the Copa and thought it was fluke till I saw the fbref stats - but he must be given time to familiarise himself with the system and his teammates so he knows instinctively what to do. Casemiro also took some time to adapt. Ugarte has the advantage of being press resistant to open up more angles.

This is where I think we have a unique player who is limited in a possession-based system but can do what ETH wants. I love arbitrages like this for the right price. The question really should be on the other midfielders to step up, and not place all responsibility on the DM. We are not a possession-based team requiring that sort of DM.

Let's see how we build up against Brighton and Liverpool I reckon our system and 1st choice players are technically more than capable to make your concerns a moot point. They are valid in the framework of a possession-based team of which we're clearly not. Also, Bruno and Diallo are active in the 1st phase. When we build up slow I've seen us in a 3-6-1 shape in the 1st phase with the wingers dropping back, especially when it's the LB playing in the middle of the 3. Rashford/Bruno drops deep to offer an outlet on the left. When there's any quick break potential we are in more of a 3-4-3 shape with maybe only the false 9 inactive, but that may just be a Mount thing.

For the Fulham match building out from the back wasn't an issue outside of our nervy first 15mins.
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Fulham barely pressed up, Brighton will be an interesting test.

Ugarte has good pass completion stats, but the eye test and stats do say progressive passsing is not his strength, Casemiro's stats are way better on that front.

I would have been okay with Ugarte if he was aerially and physically dominant, but with those being potential doubts as well, just think there are too many limitations in his game.
 
Berbaclass said:
Everything is a risk mate. What if we spend 65 million on Ugarte and he's not good enough.
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True but I personally would much rather take the risk on Ugarte than go into the season with a cheap back up to Casemiro because we think he’s still got enough in his legs based off a few games at the start of the campaign.
 
Berbaclass said:
Been thinking this myself. On current form would he even start?

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I think this is the wrong way to think about it. Yes Casermiro's form is great, but it won't stay that way if he's asked to play twice a week for 40-50 games. People really don't seem to realise how many games we're likely to play this season; the Europa League is changing format just like the CL, and we should be aiming to go deep. And what if Casemiro gets injured? Or suspended? We'll be fecked, just as we were last season. It doesn't strictly speaking have to be Ugarte, but we do have to bring someone in, and I think Ineos know that.
 
hobbers said:
How stupid the club would have to be to think we'll be ok with 32 year old Casemiro the only defensive midfielder in the squad for a 50+ game season, because he played ok in game 1 against Fulham?

Forgetting how bad he was last season, he also missed 18 games through injury.
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Yeah I doubt it's true. Can't be that stupid
 
We definitely need Ugarte but it’s good for our negotiations that Casemiro is playing well.
I think what we’re hearing from the club on Cas is just negotiation tactics. Fingers crossed.
Pity we couldn’t have got Ugarte by now though.
 
Berbaclass said:
Yes but I agree with the logic of spending less money on a potential backup if other areas need strengthening.
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Who is the backup to Casemiro? An ageing player, in a crucial position, that has had injury issues and fitness issues over the last year or so?

Edit: and that’s before you consider his troublesome disciplinary record, which has been an issue at United even when he was in good form.
 
Going off by our previous years sending I'd assume we still have room for one more major signing and as others have said they're probably considering whether they shouldn't still go for ugarte or perhaps a different type of midfielder.
 
Posh Red said:
Who is the backup to Casemiro? An ageing player, in a crucial position, that has had injury issues and fitness issues over the last year or so?

Edit: and that’s before you consider his troublesome disciplinary record, which has been an issue at United even when he was in good form.
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We are trying to sign one
 
The way I see it is that Ugarte will do most of Casemiro's leg work and we'll let the Brazilian, alongside Mainoo, control and dictate our midfield.
I see Ugarte as abit of a Hargreaves.
 
there’s a tweet quoting a journalists opinion that the club are considering sticking with Casemiro instead of signing Ugarte and people are acting like the club have released a statement or something

It’s not even the regular made up horseshit he’s stating an opinion
 
I don't think the question is so much "oh Cas has had a good game we don't need a midfielder".

I think its a genuine question to ask if Ugarte is the man, or profile infact, that we want to spend 65 million quid on to sort our midfield spine for the next 5 years and if that player exists this window. If the indication is that Casimiro has another year in him as a starter it shifts the profile on player you look at for squad depth in relation to FFP and longer term squad planning.
 
Posh Red said:
And it’s the most pressing issue with the squad. He needs replacing anyway, so it’s worth spending good money on a good player for that position. I find Laurens’ analysis on this one highly flawed.
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I think the assumption there is Ugarte is not as good as Casemiro on a good day. So does it make sense to spend €60m on him? Probably why they are trying to get the price down as they don't think he's worth that much. Ugarte has some good qualities but I don't think he's worth €60m.
 
The Hilton said:
We need quality depth though, we saw last season the extreme drop off in quality between our first choice players and the backups we have. We've made good progress in adding quality depth in forward positions and in defence, but our midfield is still threadbare, especially as Casemiro is too old to be able to cover the ground we need him to without his fitness and quality dropping off.
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No argument there, really good work in adding quality to the defensive unit this summer and with McT and Eriksen likely to be moved on there is the room and the necessity for the same work in midfield.

However it has to be players who are suited to what we need and fit the profile of the players around them, from what I have seen, rather than being a specialist DM, Ugarte is more of a high tempo presser who is drawn to the ball and lacks positional discipline, is there the possibility that means needing an actual DM/DLP as well, making him much less useful than some may think. Don't know but these are the questions any robust transfer/squad building team should be asking.

I think fans are so eager to see transfers and shiny new players that they often willfully ignore concerns or shout them down as negativity.
 
Highfather_24 said:
Fulham barely pressed up, Brighton will be an interesting test.

Ugarte has good pass completion stats, but the eye test and stats do say progressive passsing is not his strength, Casemiro's stats are way better on that front.

I would have been okay with Ugarte if he was aerially and physically dominant, but with those being potential doubts as well, just think there are too many limitations in his game.
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Yeah I'm looking forward to the Brighton and Liverpool games I think this could be the 1st season in a long while where building out from the back is no longer an issue. I think team pressing could be a bigger issue without Mount, and I don't think he should be starting for us.

Casemiro isn't all that when it comes to passing either, lest we forget his first 2 seasons. The system and teammates' movement are as important in making him look good. I think this post 2 years ago from a Madrid fan is really on point:

I also get your concern about the team's weakness aerially. The biggest stumbling block is the price PSG are asking. Doubt most would have an issue with this signing if he were a £30-35M punt. It's a bit like me with the De Ligt signing.
 
We can't realistically go into the season with just Casemiro for that position. Well, we can but we shouldn't. Hes going to get burnt out and the more tired he gets, the more rash he seems to get so not only will his level drop if we flog him but we are likely to miss him for potentially 4-6 games from cards I imagine.
 
hobbers said:
How stupid the club would have to be to think we'll be ok with 32 year old Casemiro the only defensive midfielder in the squad for a 50+ game season, because he played ok in game 1 against Fulham?

Forgetting how bad he was last season, he also missed 18 games through injury.
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Don't believe everything you read on Twitter. Unless of course it gives you an excuse to have a pop at the club.

It would be really bad for negotiations to walk in with your post as a negotiating position.

"You have to sell him to us we're DESPERATE!!!"
 
Pronewbie said:
Yeah I'm looking forward to the Brighton and Liverpool games I think this could be the 1st season in a long while where building out from the back is no longer an issue. I think team pressing could be a bigger issue without Mount, and I don't think he should be starting for us.

Casemiro isn't all that when it comes to passing either, lest we forget his first 2 seasons. The system and teammates' movement are as important in making him look good. I think this post 2 years ago from a Madrid fan is really on point:

I also get your concern about the team's weakness aerially. The biggest stumbling block is the price PSG are asking. Doubt most would have an issue with this signing if he were a £30-35M punt. It's a bit like me with the De Ligt signing.
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I actually want Mount to start for that exact reason. His out of possesion work is useful, and he needs a run of games to prove what he can do. If he fails, he fails and we need to ship him out next season.

Agreed on the fee part. If he's coming for ~40M or less, I wouldnt mind him as a squad option or backup #6.
 
Bobski said:
No argument there, really good work in adding quality to the defensive unit this summer and with McT and Eriksen likely to be moved on there is the room and the necessity for the same work in midfield.

However it has to be players who are suited to what we need and fit the profile of the players around them, from what I have seen, rather than being a specialist DM, Ugarte is more of a high tempo presser who is drawn to the ball and lacks positional discipline, is there the possibility that means needing an actual DM/DLP as well, making him much less useful than some may think. Don't know but these are the questions any robust transfer/squad building team should be asking.

I think fans are so eager to see transfers and shiny new players that they often willfully ignore concerns or shout them down as negativity.
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I think there's 2 parts to this. The first is that we undoubtedly need someone who can be a quality rotation option along with Casemiro and Mainoo otherwise we'll run out of steam very quickly into the season. The second is whether Ugarte fits the bill.

I get the point about whether he's suitable for us, it's a fair question, my opinion is that his pressing abilities could be a great boon as our only other elite presser is Mount. A lot depends on price though, for £30m or so it seems like a relatively cheap gamble, for the £60m or so we've been quoted it's too much, hopefully there's a deal to be made somewhere in the middle.
 
moses said:
Don't believe everything you read on Twitter. Unless of course it gives you an excuse to have a pop at the club.

It would be really bad for negotiations to walk in with your post as a negotiating position.

"You have to sell him to us we're DESPERATE!!!"
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Who said I believed it? Do you seriously not understand that people can comment on hypotheticals or rumours without assigning truth to them?
 
hobbers said:
Who said I believed it? Do you seriously not understand that people can comment on hypotheticals or rumours without assigning truth to them?
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What I do understand is that you will read anything in a way that enables you to have a pop at the club. It's beyond hilarious at this point and just tedious.
 
I’m not sure our 32 year old midfielder that can barely run anymore having one good game is enough of a reason not to sign another DM.
 
hobbers said:
Who said I believed it? Do you seriously not understand that people can comment on hypotheticals or rumours without assigning truth to them?
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The 'would have to be' should really have given that away.

I agreed with your post anyway. If we don't see movement to bring in a midfielder and start seeing such opinions in the media it'll be concerning. Not long left for the club to rectify our position and it is a weak bargaining position we're now in.

I really hope we don't start to see the standard influx of 'no point spending money for the sake of it's posts.
 
Highfather_24 said:
I actually want Mount to start for that exact reason. His out of possesion work is useful, and he needs a run of games to prove what he can do. If he fails, he fails and we need to ship him out next season.

Agreed on the fee part. If he's coming for ~40M or less, I wouldnt mind him as a squad option or backup #6.
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Ironically for me, we give up too much in possession with Mount and I'm already 99% convinced he'll not make it as a starter because he isn't press resistant, disappears too often with his hyperactive pass-and-move playstyle, and doesn't generate the G/A Bruno does. I'm including what I've seen of him in a Chelsea shirt alongside Kovacic who is by far the better player.

I'd rather see Ugarte start in midfield than Mount in midfield or attack.
 
Berbaclass said:
Been thinking this myself. On current form would he even start?

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If you watch that game, we need to buy him
Then we can push Case to #8 or rotate Case. Case at this age cannot be available for every match and we need to keep him fresh leg
Also, Case and Mainoo proofed that they cannot keep that density in full 90 mins game, especially Mainoo
We are playing a league, three type of cup game..Not only a one off game..we need 25 players who have ability to play at high level..
 
A player like Ugarte or someone of that profile is desperately needed in my opinion. We are one injury/absence away from a very lightweight midfield that just cannot compete against most premier league clubs. Collyer may be an option but far too early for him.
 
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