this guy would be class here. Absolute class.
Manuel Ugarte | Romano - he’s signed | Awaiting Club announcement
- Thread starter WeePat
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This is a bad chart drawing on a nonsensical selection of data. Most of those stats have nothing to do with what we would want someone in the DM position in this side to do. And the stats are too selective to even really fully illustrate anything about any player's game.
(Pet bugbear on top of that: these 'pizza' charts are a terrible data visualisation. Most of what they show is meaningless. There's no connection between the different stats so drawing lines between them and filling in the central 'volume' visualises data which doesn't represent anything.)
Sure if you dont like those selection, here's fbref. This doesnt paint a pretty picture either.
Certainly does if you have no idea how to interpret data in context.
Ugarte isn't asked to score goals for PSG, they have slightly better players for that.
He isn't asked to be a progressive carrier either (though clearly can do it as per Sporting days). His passing accuracy is 10% higher which is the difference between terrible and elite passing accuracy. Nobody is asking him to ping balls through the line all day long like Casemiro tries to do.
Clearances/blocks are garbage stats which might as well be "how crap is your team".
I'd interpret him as an aggressive ball winner with a limited role in a top team based on those stats, which is exactly what he is.
If Ugarte is to replace Casemiro in the team, he needs to replace the attributes Casemiro brings. Forget goalscoring(Casemiro is elite from a DM perspective, not realistic to expect), although it will be a big miss. Casemiro regularly plays probing passes/long balls from deep, which is something we need in midfield if the partner is Mainoo(less if its someone like Eriksen). Its a clear positive, dunno why you're saying "nobody's asking him to"...its more like its just not his skillset. Someone like Carrick would be doing the same. But with better pass accuracy ofcourse.
Clearances/blocks are not garbage stats, although not that important either. Casemiro is also way better aerially, which is vital.
Ugarte clearly is elite in some aspects(ball winning, aggressive, ball retainer), but very very lacking in others. Now perhaps that can work in a well balanced team, where other players cover up those deficiencies. I'm just think buying a player who is clearly not well rounded and limited, can be something we can come to regret. I'd rather get a jack of all trades, than someone with one really good skill and lacking in other areas(see AWB).
Wouldnt be surprised if in a years time the very people clamouring for him will be will to throw him to the curb and looking for a starting quality DM again. Seen it time and time again. I'm open to Ugarte, because it looks like its either him or Sander fecking Berge, but that's more down to United's recruitment targets, rather than approving the player.
For 35M and 120k/week salary, I'm okay with this signing. But not for 50M+ and for 200K/week.
Not true - you don't need players to replicate each other, you need players that fit into the team model and perform their roles.
We are clearly being designed to have ball progression in other areas than from our 6. Martinez, Mazraoui, Shaw (when alive), De Ligt, Yoro and clearly you have Bruno and others in the final 3rd - all are capable progressive passers. Mainoo is an exceptional progressive dribbler and will add more passing to his game over time. Ugarte is also a reasonable progressive dribber so has that in his locker compared to Casemiro.
It would obviously be ideal to have an elite DM with elite passing from deep, but they don't grow on trees. So creating a cohesive unit where players strengths and weaknesses compensate for each others is a very solid plan.
Uguarte, Mainoo, Bruno is a midfield with all the right parts IMO. We'd still also have Casemiro who can slot in there when needed and likely start many games at home to some of the shit teams. We've 8 guaranteed Europa games too and likely at least two knock out games, plus CC and FA cups. Could be another 60 plus game season and so we need that extra defensive midfield player.
In his first season I am pretty sure Martinez was in the top 5 for progressive passes into the final third... compared to all midfielders and defenders in the Premier league. De Ligt also meant to be a decent passer
Anyway, announce Uguarte!!!
I'm bang up for this now
Wharton is the defensive midfield player we need now and long term. Anyone else is a compromise, in my opinion.
He wins the ball at least as much, if not more than Casemiro, and he doesn't give it away again anywhere near as often.
These are the solid take aways imo, instead of overloading with other stats.
There will be a huge knock on effect to our other players if he's giving the ball away less.
There's also the eye test stats of Casemiro not having the legs he once had and being a step behind in some challenges.
I don't see how a 20 year old who has played 15 Premier League games is a must sign to the extent literally anyone else is a "compromise". @Grand Vizier 's posts on the previous page echo my thoughts.
off subject but I cant find the laughing emojis since the update on here
I'm not sure why people keep saying he needs to replace Casemiro, Casemiro has been an objectively terrible 6 for us, but a very good 8. Ugarte would be a profile of player we simply haven't had in the squad for 5 or so years.
Sure, the team is sum of its parts, and if other players can cover up his deficiencies, it can work.
But like I said, I'd just prefer not to sign a player who is clearly limited and has obvious flaws, and would rather get a more well rounded player. Its the same reason I prefer Mazraoui over AWB, although AWB is clearly a much better pure ballwinner.
Fair enough. I'm happy to have Ugarte on board - I'm sure he'll be a great asset - but I stand by what I've said.
Its far to early to rate Wharton this highly, this time last year he was an unknown starting a season in tbe 2nd tier with Blackburn and has made only a few decent Premier League apps for Palace so far, I remember people making similar claims about Kalvin Phillips being the great midfirlder we needed to sign a couple of years ago and look how much he flopped since joining City.
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@Highfather_24 Can't quote your fbref post for some reason.
Look up Rüdiger's fbref and you'll understand how useless statistics are in isolation. Same for Mainoo, actually. It makes them look really poor in nearly every aspect of the game.
Let's wait and see how he does if he signs for us. We don't need him to have the same skillset as Casemiro to be his replacement because he offers other qualities that Casemiro don't.
I suggest you look up Ugarte's long passing because it is actually pretty good and something he can even work on further to be even better.
It has been mentioned before, but the difference in Ugarte and Casemiro's pass completion rate is too great to ignore. What's the point of a defensive midfielder to win the ball only to give it away in a matter of seconds? Because that's what Casemiro does regularly for us. Horrendous passing, and while Ugarte is less adventurous with the ball, winning the ball and giving it to someone that can progress the ball will make a huge difference to our play.
Look up Rüdiger's fbref and you'll understand how useless statistics are in isolation. Same for Mainoo, actually. It makes them look really poor in nearly every aspect of the game.
Let's wait and see how he does if he signs for us. We don't need him to have the same skillset as Casemiro to be his replacement because he offers other qualities that Casemiro don't.
I suggest you look up Ugarte's long passing because it is actually pretty good and something he can even work on further to be even better.
It has been mentioned before, but the difference in Ugarte and Casemiro's pass completion rate is too great to ignore. What's the point of a defensive midfielder to win the ball only to give it away in a matter of seconds? Because that's what Casemiro does regularly for us. Horrendous passing, and while Ugarte is less adventurous with the ball, winning the ball and giving it to someone that can progress the ball will make a huge difference to our play.
Sign him immediately.
Awaiting that big breakthrough in negotiations
No one realised Casemiro got that passing range until he came to us because his role at Madrid was just to screen the defence.
Like that once Ugarte comes here, we could see the other side of his game but that would be only a bonus as we have other players for that,
what we need at the moment is his defensive ability which is top class.
Like that once Ugarte comes here, we could see the other side of his game but that would be only a bonus as we have other players for that,
what we need at the moment is his defensive ability which is top class.
Not sure but De Jong deal is far too complex so need to scout players across this season who would be much easier deals than him
All of you doing a really good job of selling this guy and making us all more keen on this transfer, if this deal doesn't happen, we're coming for you! 
Yeah that's a very good point about Casemiro
I was initially apprehensive about the €60m tag but i've changed my mind. We really really need to do this deal. Whatever it takes.
Agree! I’ve seen Wharton live for Blackburn Rovers a couple of times. He’s excellent, but this thing about him being like Carrick is jumping the gun. When I saw him, he was having lots of impressive moments and incisive passes, but he was giving it away a bit, fading out of the game for patches. Of course, he’s young, and maybe that was because it was the Championship and to do with his role in the team, but I’d be okay with watching him for an entire season at Palace and seeing how that goes.
We need more in midfield, but making some mega bid for Wharton now and pairing him with Mainoo (who still has lots to learn) would be reckless. Ugarte will cost just over half as much, but is not much older and is massively more experienced. If Wharton has a great season, there's nothing stopping us from getting him next summer. His value won’t go up much more than if we did something silly now. We would get taken to the cleaners trying for him now.
Yeah definitely one to watch for next summer
The problem is, Casemiro did not bring his attributes last season. And there is no way we can go into this season assuming he will regain his form. He for sure cannot play the same amount of games and be expected to be consistent of us.
I want to argue that a lot of Casemiro's supposed passing ability is playing a blind curved ball forward first time and hoping that one of our forwards has made the run.
Especially one who just signed to his current club in January and would be asked of at least £60m to begin discussions with his club for
Ugarte is not really a #6 either, if by #6 we mean a single pivot who sits and holds position at the base of midfield. He's an aggressive, ball-winning midfielder, who will chase and harry opposition players. His midfield partner (presumably Mainoo) will need to drop in when Ugarte goes chasing the ball, or we'd leave the CBs exposed. That's not to say that I don't want Ugarte or don't think he'd be effective - I actually think he'd be quite a good fit with Mainoo in a double pivot and would be a decent signing.
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he has the legs and ability to cover space plus win tackles...i think he would be a very good partner for Kobbie as he would do some of the dirty work that Kobbie isn't as prepared to do yet physically
You make it sound so simple!
Hopefully this is sorted in the next few days.
We need him integrated into the team
We need him integrated into the team
Ugarte is the signing we need to make this a great summer.
I have a feeling this could go on close to deadline day, but I really hope we can get him signed and ready to play the Liverpool match on September 1st.
I have a feeling this could go on close to deadline day, but I really hope we can get him signed and ready to play the Liverpool match on September 1st.
The hype around Wharton is ludicrous.
I don't think this move happens until we either make a sale or the final days of the window when psg finally are pushed to compromise.
It’s him or Berge. Either way we need someone to be an enforcer behind Bruno and Mainoo and to protect the middle from the counter and cutbacks. I think either player will get that job done well but Ugarte looks electric. If we get him then this is our best and most sensible window by far in the post Fergie years.
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