[NinjaFletch]

Maybe if he signs for Leyton Orient, otherwise seems doubtful.

If I was a PL manager I wouldn't go near him. If he isn't motivated to play in the Champions League and challenge for trophies, he isn't exactly going to be motivated for Stoke vs Huddersfield.

Would you be that surprised if he linked up with Pochettino and recaptured his early career form? I certainly wouldn't.

Nor would I be surprised to see Rose come the other way for tens of millions of pounds and struggle to play as well as he has at Tottenham.

 

[NinjaFletch]

From that article '[United fans] recall the surging runs he used to make down the left hand side on a regular basis'

Am I the only one who has absolutely no recollection of this whatsoever? The examples picked out in the article (and the run of 3 to 4 games before he got his leg broken) are about the only examples I can think of of Luke Shaw making surging runs. My biggest abiding memory of him from before the left back is of him being unfit and injured a lot.

 

[noodlehair]

The thing we've seen with Mourinho is that if someone is playing well enough he will find a place for them in his system...and if they are not playing particularly well but work hard he tends to find a place for them anyway.

The idea he holds grudges or pre-conceptions about players that cloud his judgement doesn't hold much weight when you consider that he offloaded Mata at Chelsea yet will pick him for us even when he's not in the best form.

The idea you can't win him over is pretty much dispelled by Mhikitaryan, who he clearly wasn't impressed with at first, but now will play without any hesitation.

I think the only player you can say has had a bit of a rough ride with him is Martial, and even then. he's been given plenty of games and largely when he hasn't played, it's been down to him not earning a place. He is just unfortunate that he seems to be competing with Rashford, who Jose has openly admitted is his type of player.

Every player who he's criticised he has also at some point praised in some way for their reaction, with the exception of Shaw. I was surprised we kept him over the summer considering we let Rooney go for free, who despite not being good enough to get in our team is definitely still a more useful player than Shaw. I'm guessing Shaw just hasn't pushed for a move, but he doesn't seem to be pushing to play either so you wonder exactly what it is he's doing.

 

[McGrathsipan]

I think hes going to be loaned out in January - try and get his value back up to sell in the summer.

Strikes me as the type of guy that would be Neville Southall fat in 3 months if he wasnt a football player

 

[noodlehair]

Would you be that surprised if he linked up with Pochettino and recaptured his early career form? I certainly wouldn't.

Nor would I be surprised to see Rose come the other way for tens of millions of pounds and struggle to play as well as he has at Tottenham.

I would be massively surprised if that happened. If Pochettino had any interest in it Spurs would have made a move in the summer...and again this is just trying to blame Shaw's lack of ability to perform on the manager. Sometimes you just have to accept the problem is more than likely with the player.

 

[DWelbz19]

The thing we've seen with Mourinho is that if someone is playing well enough he will find a place for them in his system...and if they are not playing particularly well but work hard he tends to find a place for them anyway.

The idea he holds grudges or pre-conceptions about players that cloud his judgement doesn't hold much weight when you consider that he offloaded Mata at Chelsea yet will pick him for us even when he's not in the best form.

The idea you can't win him over is pretty much dispelled by Mhikitaryan, who he clearly wasn't impressed with at first, but now will play without any hesitation.

I think the only player you can say has had a bit of a rough ride with him is Martial, and even then. he's been given plenty of games and largely when he hasn't played, it's been down to him not earning a place. He is just unfortunate that he seems to be competing with Rashford, who Jose has openly admitted is his type of player.

Every player who he's criticised he has also at some point praised in some way for their reaction, with the exception of Shaw. I was surprised we kept him over the summer considering we let Rooney go for free, who despite not being good enough to get in our team is definitely still a more useful player than Shaw. I'm guessing Shaw just hasn't pushed for a move, but he doesn't seem to be pushing to play either so you wonder exactly what it is he's doing.

But why does he push these criticisms on in the first place? Most of the time they’ve been totally over the top or just unnecessary. It’s like he wants to create friction.

 

[Boycott]

Would you be that surprised if he linked up with Pochettino and recaptured his early career form? I certainly wouldn't.

Nor would I be surprised to see Rose come the other way for tens of millions of pounds and struggle to play as well as he has at Tottenham.

Agree. Think this will happen and all parties will be happy. Danny Rose said he wants to play up north and I think that interview in the summer no matter how they spin in now has burnt bridges.

Jose Fonte was on Football Focus last week and said at Southampton they joked that Shaw was Poch's son - that's how close they were.

 

[AndyJ1985]

you just know that once we sell him he will go on to be one of the best LB in the league !

It's more likely his career trajectory will go the same way as players like Cleverley and Gibson.

 

[Erictheking7]

He hasn't been part of Mou's plans for quite some time and isn't going to be any time soon. I was hoping there was going to be a miraculous recovery with Luke Shaw but let's face it, it isn't going to happen. Cut our losses now and sign a better player for the position.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

But why does he push these criticisms on in the first place? Most of the time they’ve been totally over the top or just unnecessary. It’s like he wants to create friction.

He’s looking for a response. He wants a team full of players who respond to criticism with a burning desire to prove the critics wrong. If they lack the bollox to do this then they’re no use to him.

Bit of a moot point as far as Shaw is concerned because he’s been criticised by every manager he’s ever played for. Mourinho is just taking it a step further (not least because Shaw is fast running out of time)

 

[noodlehair]

But why does he push these criticisms on in the first place? Most of the time they’ve been totally over the top or just unnecessary. It’s like he wants to create friction.

He does it to get a reaction from the player I think, or maybe to test them...or possibly because he just isn't the type to hold back what he thinks.

We knew what Mourinho was like before he was our manager...but since he's been our manager people have started creating all these myths about how he always falls out with players, ruins people's careers etc. It's a load of nonsense to be honest. So far at United he has fallen out with virtually no one and delivered a noticeable improvement in the attitude and mentality of our players.

 

[stepic]

you just know that once we sell him he will go on to be one of the best LB in the league !

Just like Falcao when he moved to Chelsea right

 

[Darkhorsez]

Who knows what happens behind the scenes. Was so excited when we managed to sign him. Then sad when he had the bad injury as he had just started to show some promise. Now, we all have to move on and put this to bed. I would be happy if he makes it good at another club as for whatever reason, clearly didn’t work out at Utd.

 

[NinjaFletch]

I would be massively surprised if that happened. If Pochettino had any interest in it Spurs would have made a move in the summer...and again this is just trying to blame Shaw's lack of ability to perform on the manager. Sometimes you just have to accept the problem is more than likely with the player.

Oh it is a criticism of Shaw. I think he's work shy, lacks self motivation, has struggled to adapt to demands of playing for a bigger club, and needs to be mothered by a manager who will treat him like a child and will push him in the right way to make up for what is a shocking attitude for a professional footballer to have. My only criticism of the club on Shaw (as with Mhkitaryan and perhaps Lindelöf) is that we no longer seem to be working on a basis that it is important to buy players who have the right mental fibre in order to be successful.

I just also think that Pochettino has shown that he's willing to baby players, and that they are well known to have a good working relationship in the past. If he's available for free or a cut down price in the summer (did we have any confirmation about whether we triggered his contract extension or not?) Spurs will be all over it.

 

[DWelbz19]

He does it to get a reaction from the player I think, or maybe to test them...or possibly because he just isn't the type to hold back what he thinks.

We knew what Mourinho was like before he was our manager...but since he's been our manager people have started creating all these myths about how he always falls out with players, ruins people's careers etc. It's a load of nonsense to be honest. So far at United he has fallen out with virtually no one and delivered a noticeable improvement in the attitude and mentality of our players.

Is it a myth? There’s a bit of a historical list of players he’s clearly fallen out with in the past.

The whole ‘test his players thing’ - fair enough. I don’t think it does more good than harm and think it’s totally antiquated but we’re getting off topic now anyway.

 

[Boycott]

Is it a myth? There’s a bit of a historical list of players he’s clearly fallen out with in the past.

The whole ‘test his players thing’ - fair enough. I don’t think it does more good than harm and think it’s totally antiquated but we’re getting off topic now anyway.

I don't think it's antiquated but the problem is one size doesn't fit all. Ferguson admits he had to mellow and adapt to different personalities who came from different backgrounds.

 

[DWelbz19]

I don't think it's antiquated but the problem is one size doesn't fit all. Ferguson admits he had to mellow and adapt to different personalities who came from different backgrounds.

I mean, I think players can do with a bollocking at times, but I think it all needs to be behind closed doors. I can’t get behind public caning.

 

[noodlehair]

Oh it is a criticism of Shaw. I think he's work shy, lacks self motivation, has struggled to adapt to demands of playing for a bigger club, and needs to be mothered by a manager who will treat him like a child and will push him in the right way to make up for what is a shocking attitude for a professional footballer to have. My only criticism of the club on Shaw (as with Mhkitaryan and perhaps Lindelöf) is that we no longer seem to be working on a basis that it is important to buy players who have the right mental fibre in order to be successful.

I just also think that Pochettino has shown that he's willing to baby players, and that they are well known to have a good working relationship in the past. If he's available for free or a cut down price in the summer (did we have any confirmation about whether we triggered his contract extension or not?) Spurs will be all over it.

If they were going to be all over it they would have been in the summer I would have thought. They knew Rose was unhappy and knew United weren't happy with Shaw. It would have been a very obvious thing to go for if there was any interest in it.

Pochettino managed Shaw when he was at a very young age at Southampton, and not for very long. I'm not sure what basis there is for them having a proven good relationship, or to suggest Pochettino can get the best out of him. I'm not sure there's really all that much to go on in terms of what the "best" of Luke Shaw actually is.

He's a gamble for any PL club, and a massive one for another top 6 side. They would be spending money on a player who isn't good enough for a team they want to be better than.

Is it a myth? There’s a bit of a historical list of players he’s clearly fallen out with in the past.

The whole ‘test his players thing’ - fair enough. I don’t think it does more good than harm and think it’s totally antiquated but we’re getting off topic now anyway.

Well yeah, it is. Apart from his last spell at Chelsea he has generally been very good at getting the best out of players and the ones that struggle tend to be the ones that aren't good enough anyway...and even in that spell at Chelsea, he won the league and brought about a big improvement before it all went wrong.

Some of the players he supposedly has fallen out with turned out to be a myth too...like when he subbed Mata on and off again in the community shield because of how much he apparently hates him.

If you came up with a list of players Jose has refused to play or forced out of clubs due to falling out with them, I doubt you'd exactly end up with a list of world beaters. I'm not even sure you could actually make a list. You'd have a few names, about half of who he probably never actually fell out with (e.g. Mata, Lukaku).

 

[CM]

Well, he had a whole game with the reserve last week and he did nothing during the game, what do you say about that @CM10 ? if he can't prove himself in a game against reserve and mostly under 23 players, why should Mourinho give him a chance in a cup tie.

A whole game with the reserves, great. I suppose he should be thankful for the opportunity. There have been plenty of instances in the past where senior players haven't affected these games and even get shown up on occasion, it's pointless reading anything into non-competitive matches other than fitness.

What are you on about? If you didn’t watch him in his last appearance for the U23s then you should watch it before accusing people who did watch it of regurgitating anything. I watched the game. He was clearly very unfit. Anderson style. Which is bad for any player with aspirations of first team football and unforgiveable from someone who has so much to prove this season.

It came across as another ignorant comment about his weight. You're right that he's not in the best condition at the moment but equally, that isn't likely to come until he's back and playing regularly.

There's clearly more to this than meets the eye, anyway. As @DWelbz19 says, some of the comments Mourinho made about Shaw last year were brutal and indicative of a problem between them. The situation has been the same for some time though; if he knew there was little chance of bringing Shaw back into the fold he should've signed another left back instead of leaving us in limbo with half measures like Young and Darmian.

 

[Revaulx]

Turning up overweight and getting publicly bollocked by LvG wasn't a good start.

This. People have forgotten that his first season was pretty much a write-off. His critics would be more indulgent towards him if his problems had only begun with the leg break.

 

[NinjaFletch]

If they were going to be all over it they would have been in the summer I would have thought. They knew Rose was unhappy and knew United weren't happy with Shaw. It would have been a very obvious thing to go for if there was any interest in it.

Pochettino managed Shaw when he was at a very young age at Southampton, and not for very long. I'm not sure what basis there is for them having a proven good relationship, or to suggest Pochettino can get the best out of him. I'm not sure there's really all that much to go on in terms of what the "best" of Luke Shaw actually is.

He's a gamble for any PL club, and a massive one for another top 6 side. They would be spending money on a player who isn't good enough for a team they want to be better than.

Well quite, hence why it might make sense for them to go in for him when his price might be cheaper, and on a reduced wage. Exactly the same as their reported interest in Barkley too.

Fonte has described Shaw as like a son to Pochettino: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41629182

His management of Shaw coincides with roughly the only period of time where Shaw has looked like a footballer in the past few years, and his current players have spoken about the forensic detail that Pochettino goes in to to ensure that he gets the most out of his players (like in that interview above). More to the point he has a proven track record of getting the most out of players.

Pochettino might decide that Shaw's not worth it, but I would not be at all amazed if they linked up again and he got more out of him than others could.

 

[Parry Gallister]

Useless fecking piglet, don't give a toss if he turns it around at Spurs, just get the dozy cnut out of here and get some actual options in.

 

[SirAF]

Useless fecking piglet, don't give a toss if he turns it around at Spurs, just get the dozy cnut out of here and get some actual options in.

 

[DWelbz19]

If they were going to be all over it they would have been in the summer I would have thought. They knew Rose was unhappy and knew United weren't happy with Shaw. It would have been a very obvious thing to go for if there was any interest in it.

Pochettino managed Shaw when he was at a very young age at Southampton, and not for very long. I'm not sure what basis there is for them having a proven good relationship, or to suggest Pochettino can get the best out of him. I'm not sure there's really all that much to go on in terms of what the "best" of Luke Shaw actually is.

He's a gamble for any PL club, and a massive one for another top 6 side. They would be spending money on a player who isn't good enough for a team they want to be better than.



Well yeah, it is. Apart from his last spell at Chelsea he has generally been very good at getting the best out of players and the ones that struggle tend to be the ones that aren't good enough anyway...and even in that spell at Chelsea, he won the league and brought about a big improvement before it all went wrong.

Some of the players he supposedly has fallen out with turned out to be a myth too...like when he subbed Mata on and off again in the community shield because of how much he apparently hates him.

If you came up with a list of players Jose has refused to play or forced out of clubs due to falling out with them, I doubt you'd exactly end up with a list of world beaters. I'm not even sure you could actually make a list. You'd have a few names, about half of who he probably never actually fell out with (e.g. Mata, Lukaku).

How’s Sergio Ramos, Pepe, Cristiano Ronaldo, and Iker Casillas?

 

[noodlehair]

Well quite, hence why it might make sense for them to go in for him when his price might be cheaper, and on a reduced wage. Exactly the same as their reported interest in Barkley too.

Fonte has described Shaw as like a son to Pochettino: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41629182

His management of Shaw coincides with roughly the only period of time where Shaw has looked like a footballer in the past few years, and his current players have spoken about the forensic detail that Pochettino goes in to to ensure that he gets the most out of his players (like in that interview above). More to the point he has a proven track record of getting the most out of players.

Pochettino might decide that Shaw's not worth it, but I would not be at all amazed if they linked up again and he got more out of him than others could.

I don't doubt any of that about Pochettino. He's clearly a very good manager and at both Spurs and Southampton has had teams performing well above the level you'd expect normally from the players they have.

The issue is he managed Shaw quite a while ago now, when he was a kid. Lots of players look very good at that age. He is also now in a very different situation at Spurs than he was at Southampton. He's trying to win the league and preparing for midweek games in the CL...you can't afford the luxury of having to babysit a player into not being a liability when you're preparing for potentially 50+ important games a season, and virtually all of them are must win.

I think it's more likely he'd look at Shaw and see the same as what we do...someone who hasn't performed in 3 years, seems to be injury prone, and also has fitness/mentality problems when he isn't injured. It's a lot of work to put into something when the best realistic end result you have is a decent fullback.

 

[SirAF]

How’s Sergio Ramos, Pepe, Cristiano Ronaldo, and Iker Casillas?

He refused to play/forced out Ronaldo or Ramos for that matter?

Casillas was done at Real's level.

 

[DWelbz19]

He refused to play/forced out Ronaldo or Ramos for that matter?

Casillas was done at Real's level.

He fell out with these players. That’s what the ‘myth’ was about that the original poster was talking about.

 

[Minimalist]

From that article '[United fans] recall the surging runs he used to make down the left hand side on a regular basis'

Am I the only one who has absolutely no recollection of this whatsoever? The examples picked out in the article (and the run of 3 to 4 games before he got his leg broken) are about the only examples I can think of of Luke Shaw making surging runs. My biggest abiding memory of him from before the left back is of him being unfit and injured a lot.

He had a few games early on under Van Gaal when he made some mad runs. One in particular against Club Brugge when ran sideways at the back and ran down the right flank instead.

Aside from those early days, I don’t think he’s ever showed what he can offer in support.

Edit: talking out my ass, it was the second season obviously if it’s that match I’m remembering. Before the leg break.

 

[noodlehair]

How’s Sergio Ramos, Pepe, Cristiano Ronaldo, and Iker Casillas?

Two of them still play for Real Madrid, Pepe only left last year, and Casillas also left after Jose had left the club.

Only Casillas was even dropped by Jose, arguably correctly. The rest played consistently.

So that's 0 players you have so far.

 

[NinjaFletch]

I don't doubt any of that about Pochettino. He's clearly a very good manager and at both Spurs and Southampton has had teams performing well above the level you'd expect normally from the players they have.

The issue is he managed Shaw quite a while ago now, when he was a kid. Lots of players look very good at that age. He is also now in a very different situation at Spurs than he was at Southampton. He's trying to win the league and preparing for midweek games in the CL...you can't afford the luxury of having to babysit a player into not being a liability when you're preparing for potentially 50+ important games a season, and virtually all of them are must win.

I think it's more likely he'd look at Shaw and see the same as what we do...someone who hasn't performed in 3 years, seems to be injury prone, and also has fitness/mentality problems when he isn't injured. It's a lot of work to put into something when the best realistic end result you have is a decent fullback.

Tbh I think we're pretty much in agreement, with the exception of this line: 'you can't afford the luxury of having to babysit a player'.

I see such a babysitting as something that Pochettino thinks is fundamental to his managerial style, and will see him sign project players and rely on them more than you'd expect from a club of Spurs' aspirations. Maybe I'm wrong, but thats the impression I get.

He had a few games early on under Van Gaal when he made some mad runs. One in particular against Club Brugge when ran sideways at the back and ran down the right flank instead.

Aside from those early days, I don’t think he’s ever showed what he can offer in support.

Exactly, I can remember some good runs, I can remember some good performances too, but the suggestion that he did anything good with regularity is just bizarre to me. My abiding memory of him when he was in the team more regularly was that he was actually a bit crap going forward.

 

[SirAF]

He fell out with these players. That’s what the ‘myth’ was about that the original poster was talking about.

He still worked with them, though. At least, Ramos and Ronaldo - I don't recall Pepe's situation.

 

[noodlehair]

He fell out with these players. That’s what the ‘myth’ was about that the original poster was talking about.

"If you came up with a list of players Jose has refused to play or forced out of clubs due to falling out with them"

...

 

[DWelbz19]

Two of them still play for Real Madrid, Pepe only left last year, and Casillas also left after Jose had left the club.

Only Casillas was even dropped by Jose, arguably correctly. The rest played consistently.

So that's 0 players you have so far.

Are you okay? You said there was a myth that Mourinho fell out with players. Look here;

people have started creating all these myths about how he always falls out with players, ruins people's careers etc. It's a load of nonsense to be honest.

I can give you more if you want. Those were just some of the ‘world beater’ ones.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

All managers fall out with players. It's the nature of the job. The way it has become increasingly sensationalized in recent years annoys me.

 

[breakout67]

How can you fall out with a player who considers you a fantastic manager and will play under you. CR7 said that he has no problem playing under Mourinho again if they are at the same club.
Mourinho called Ozil a 'giant pussy' and Ozil considers him the best manager he's ever played under.

'Falling out' is sensationalist tabloid talk. Men in competitive sports fight things out and forget so long as they are reasonable.

 

[Pexbo]

But why does he push these criticisms on in the first place? Most of the time they’ve been totally over the top or just unnecessary. It’s like he wants to create friction.

He wants a positive reaction.

 

[midnightmare]

A whole game with the reserves, great. I suppose he should be thankful for the opportunity. There have been plenty of instances in the past where senior players haven't affected these games and even get shown up on occasion, it's pointless reading anything into non-competitive matches other than fitness.

1. This is not just an established star being eased back in and avoiding injury; this was his opportunity to shine - and he muffed it.
2. And he wasn't fit! Not for the first time, he's overweight - and this when under pressure. Oh, and just for fun, think about the fact that he returned at about the same time as Young.

It came across as another ignorant comment about his weight. You're right that he's not in the best condition at the moment but equally, that isn't likely to come until he's back and playing regularly.

It came across as another ignorant comment about his weight. You're right that he's not in the best condition at the moment but equally, that isn't likely to come until he's back and playing regularly.

There's clearly more to this than meets the eye, anyway. As @DWelbz19 says, some of the comments Mourinho made about Shaw last year were brutal and indicative of a problem between them. The situation has been the same for some time though; if he knew there was little chance of bringing Shaw back into the fold he should've signed another left back instead of leaving us in limbo with half measures like Young and Darmian.

So, your solution would be for Jose to give up on a few competitive games and lose them because we need to give an unfit LB with a poor attitude a chance to get back to fitness in the hope that he will hit heights that he's never hit before while also hoping he'll avoid injury - something he's also never done before - and all the while, risk being shellacked for the results? Play an unfit Shaw and United will lose / draw / struggle. Jose will then inevitably take flak for "playing an unfit player", "risking the poor kid's confidence" and "putting the club at risk of missing out on trophies". If Shaw gets injured, it will be about "he was premature in playing an unfit player". How could Jose win?

Oh and here's the final bit. Rooney was similar in this "needs a run of games" thing but here's the thing - he'd proven he was great at his peak! The difference was, even when playing himself back, Rooney's attitude could never be faulted. In the reserves game, given the magnitude it should have had for Shaw, he just didn't look like he gave a toss. Strolling and ambling while losing? Just not good enough. Get rid!

 

[redIndianDevil]

He’s looking for a response. He wants a team full of players who respond to criticism with a burning desire to prove the critics wrong. If they lack the bollox to do this then they’re no use to him.

Bit of a moot point as far as Shaw is concerned because he’s been criticised by every manager he’s ever played for. Mourinho is just taking it a step further (not least because Shaw is fast running out of time)

He does it to get a reaction from the player I think, or maybe to test them...or possibly because he just isn't the type to hold back what he thinks.

This is bullshit IMO, if this approach actually works, there would a lot of managers publicly castigating their players every week. You don't throw your players under the bus in front of the media to "test" them.

 

[noodlehair]

This is bullshit IMO, if this approach actually works, there would a lot of managers publicly castigating their players every week. You don't throw your players under the bus in front of the media to "test" them.

Sometimes on here, Mourinho saying a player "needs to perform", or merely leaving them out of the team, counts as castigating them. All managers do or have done things like this, including Ferguson.

I think part of the problem is how precious some United fans are. Like last season when Mourinho merely said that Mhikitaryan would play "when he was ready" and this somehow counted as hanging him out to dry. Meanwhile Mhikitaryan had come out and said exactly the same thing and was seemingly happy with the situation.

Something about Mourinho's approach clearly does seem to work, anyway. The number of player who've performed better under him for us greatly outweighs the number who've performed worse...basically just Luke Shaw and Martial...who has been playing much better this season anyway.

Mourinho isn't a type to act as a shield for his players, which for me is fine MOST of the time, as I don't want us having a team of babies. He does have a tendancy to make excuses to absorb himself from criticism as well, and sometimes the two seem to mix together (e.g. after the Huddersfield game), which I find a lot less endearing.

 

[K2K]

Would you be that surprised if he linked up with Pochettino and recaptured his early career form? I certainly wouldn't.

Nor would I be surprised to see Rose come the other way for tens of millions of pounds and struggle to play as well as he has at Tottenham.

There's no guarantee Spur will even be interested in him.

They have coped rather well without Danny Rose.

Plus Shaw on his current wage would probably be one of Spurs highest earners and Spurs will not want to pay such wages for a player that has barely played any football in 3 years in the Summer. He would have to take a significant pay cut to force that move through.

This is a more plausible scenario than the one you have thrown out.