Liverpool : General discussion

bleedred said:
Honest question for Liverpool fans.

Do you think, expectation levels would have been a lot less of him, had Liverpool not had that one good season. If you look over the last 7-8 years that was like a outlier and finishing outside top 4 has been the trend.
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I can only speak for myself, but...

My expectations aren't really influenced by that season at all. We should be constantly getting Europa League football, putting together decent cup runs, and at least challenging for top 4 well into the second half of the season. Other than the freak 13/14 season and the semis where we got knocked out by Villa/Chelsea, little has gone right.

Well, that's not entirely fair. Our wage bill has shrunk dramatically, while the general quality of our squad has improved ('cept we miss Suarez, of course).

I don't expect PL titles, European glory or even a trophy every season. My expecations are good football on a weekly basis, and 100% effort from the team. When I saw the lineup today, I knew exactly what we were going to get... That's not the team a Liverpool manager should be sending out vs Norwich at Anfield. That's the kind of team you send out against Bayern Munich away from home, except with a striker dropped for another midfielder.
 
I feel like Liverpool are at a crossroads now, as Utd were under Moyes 18 months ago. They can go on kidding themselves that the likes of Henderson, Milner, Lallana, Skrtel etc....are "top" quality players. They can go on believing that the likes of Markovic, Firminho, Lovren etc...will eventually come good and prove to be very shrewd signings.

Or, they can wake up and face the cold hard realities which is that their squad is absolutely bang average. There are very, very few signs that ANY of the young players are going to turn into world class footballers. Don't give me the likes of Can, Ibe and Gomez, I'm talking real top quality players, the calibre of which is needed to win a PL title, and from what I have seen these two lads look handy but not that standard.

This is not a dig or a wind up. We were in exactly this position 18 months ago. We were banging on about the likes of Welbeck, Hernandez, Zaha, Kagawa, Cleverley, Rafael etc....saying "IF they stay fit" or IF they get a run of games in their favoured position" etc....but the reality is they were not good enough and never will be

I genuinely think they need to tear it up and start again and I don't think Rodgers is the man to do it. Makes too many poor decisions when it comes to recruitment to be trusted having a second go at building a side. The side he inherited is better than the side he has now and that is a damning truth for him I am afraid
 
We have an Europa League squad, I don't think there's any denying that. We should be looking to constantly secure 5th/6th, and then trying to press on from there.
 
Tommy said:
We have an Europa League squad, I don't think there's any denying that. We should be looking to constantly secure 5th/6th, and then trying to press on from there.
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You've got very little chance of being able to press on from 5/6th for the foreseeable future. You've only managed one top 4 finish in the last 6 years and that was because of Suarez being insanely good and Sturridge having a freak season - it was a fluke, basically. You are miles behind the big 4 and even if one of the big 4 does drop out due to a bad season, you will not be number one in the pecking order for a couple of seasons at least. And the depressing thing (for you) is that even if you do manage to break in to the top 4, it will be a one-off event like last season. You no longer have the infrastructure to be able to compete at the top level on a regular basis.
 
Big Sam. He'd be an improvement :lol:
 
Moyes is apparently on thin ice in Sociedad.
 
Raw said:
Bloody hell could you imagine the meltdown if Moyes' Liverpool beat us?
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It would probably rival the meltdown on RAWK caused by Moyes taking over in the first place.
 
Raoul said:
I think Monk would get the job.
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He's done pretty well to be fair, but no thanks.

FSG have slashed the wage bill, improved the overall quality of the squad (although not to constant top 4 quality), are improving the stadium and didn't get rid of Rodgers in the summer. If the rumours of them looking to sell are true, then I reckon there's a chance we won't get a new manager until after that unless someone like Klopp is available.
 
They've just got no balance to the squad and Rodgers seems to have no idea where what formation he's trying to build a team for. So many strikers, so many no 10s, so many rubbish CBs.
 
Losing Rodgers would be like missing out on the CL this year. I will cry for days if it happens. That win today meant nothing to me, gutted Liverpool drew to Norwich.
 
Raoul said:
I think Monk would get the job.
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I hope not, i really like him as a manager and like what he is doing at Swansea and in the end as someone before already said he would be marked as a failure when he couldn't achieve unreasonable expectation which would be very unfair to him.
 
Tommy said:
We have an Europa League squad, I don't think there's any denying that. We should be looking to constantly secure 5th/6th, and then trying to press on from there.
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For the money you have spent, and I don't buy the depth argument, Rodgers would have been better off going for a seriously high quality backbone. He had Suarez up front, so he could have really gone for a Stevie G II, and a Hanson II at the back. When it was obvious Suarez was going he should have brought in a serious quality striker. These players are about, and the argument about CL pull doesn't hold as I haven't heard of Liverpool actually making an effort to acquire them. Arsenal changed approach and started going for the one big signing a season, and they haven't done too bad. They actually went from 4th to 3rd with a cup;)
 
bucky said:
Out of curiosity, who should succeed Rodgers if he's sacked? Let's assume Klopp is going to Bayern next summer.

@B20 @Tommy @Bob Loblaw @Rafateria
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Considering Klopp's very positive comments on the PL and his love of Dortmund I wouldn't assume he's going to Bayern at all.

Liverpool have a problem in that we have tried, and given 4 years, to supposedly the best up and coming young British manager, I don't see FSG going that route again, and if there were to be new owners then that is even less likely, IMHO.

Therefore we would be looking for a proven, experienced, manager, some like Ancelotti, though I'm not sure how realistic he would be but that would be the template. That said I do think Klopp would be an excellent alternative.
 
Just bear with Rodgers till the end of season and get Rafa back, who will surely be available by then.
 
Rafateria said:
Considering Klopp's very positive comments on the PL and his love of Dortmund I wouldn't assume he's going to Bayern at all.

Liverpool have a problem in that we have tried, and given 4 years, to supposedly the best up and coming young British manager, I don't see FSG going that route again, and if there were to be new owners then that is even less likely, IMHO.

Therefore we would be looking for a proven, experienced, manager, some like Ancelotti, though I'm not sure how realistic he would be but that would be the template. That said I do think Klopp would be an excellent alternative.
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Well, I was mostly wondering, who you'd want, if Klopp wasn't an option.
 
bucky said:
Well, I was mostly wondering, who you'd want, if Klopp wasn't an option.
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Ancelotti ! Though he may not be an option either ;) Other than that personally I'd want maybe Simeone, but doubt he'd come here either when he has his teams challenging the hegemony of Spain's league and guaranteed CL football every year.
 
Their squad is better than what it is producing currently IMO. Mignolet is a disaster though, they really need to upgrade that position. Don't think it helps that Rodgers doesn't settle on a system/formation. He varies from the 4-4-2 diamond, 3-5-2, 4-3-3, and he has probably played a 4-1-4-1 at some point. Add to that the fact he constantly rotates the position of his players and it doesn't surprise me they struggle.

Only saw a few highlights but I thought Ings looked alright.
 
ZDwyr said:
Their squad is better than what it is producing currently IMO. Mignolet is a disaster though, they really need to upgrade that position. Don't think it helps that Rodgers doesn't settle on a system/formation. He varies from the 4-4-2 diamond, 3-5-2, 4-3-3, and he has probably played a 4-1-4-1 at some point. Add to that the fact he constantly rotates the position of his players and it doesn't surprise me they struggle.

Only saw a few highlights but I thought Ings looked alright.
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It's really not good squad and yes should be better then 13th but spots from 5-8 seems like a good result for that squad.

They have a bad GK, bad defense, nothing like good midfield, no good wingers and a lot of midtable strikers. Other then a Coutinho, but he still is incosistent and Sturridge, if he can replicate his form from 13/14, i have doubts he can, they really don't have players who could be in the starting lineup for a top 4 team.

Their team is a mess and a much bigger mess than was our team in 13/14.
 
The constant formation and personnel changes are the symptoms of a floundering manager desperate for results.

You can't keep tearing up the play book and make wholesale team changes after every single game, a team needs to grow and settle with an established set of players who know where each other are on the pitch and what's going to happen next.

What the team and he needs is just to pick a side and formation and stick to it, regardless of what happens, because it will be far, far better than what he is doing now.

Unless of course he decides to line up 1-1-1-7 in which case there is no helping him.
 
Jerch said:
It's really not good squad and yes should be better then 13th but spots from 5-8 seems like a good result for that squad.

They have a bad GK, bad defense, nothing like good midfield, no good wingers and a lot of midtable strikers. Other then a Coutinho, but he still is incosistent and Sturridge, if he can replicate his form from 13/14, i have doubts he can, they really don't have players who could be in the starting lineup for a top 4 team.

Their team is a mess and a much bigger mess than was our team in 13/14.
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Sturridge will never be fit enough to be a first team regular I don't think, he has a distinct air of the Hargreaves about him.
 
Ducklegs said:
Sturridge will never be fit enough to be a first team regular I don't think, he has a distinct air of the Hargreaves about him.
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I think so too and that is why i said that i have doubts he can replicate his 13/14.
 
bucky said:
Out of curiosity, who should succeed Rodgers if he's sacked? Let's assume Klopp is going to Bayern next summer.

@B20 @Tommy @Bob Loblaw @Rafateria
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Ancelotti, De Boer would be ideal. Unai Emery would also be good.

Or we should be the team that finally brings Bielsa to the prem. Not sure it would go well, but it'd be a ride.
 
Lentwood said:
I feel like Liverpool are at a crossroads now, as Utd were under Moyes 18 months ago. They can go on kidding themselves that the likes of Henderson, Milner, Lallana, Skrtel etc....are "top" quality players. They can go on believing that the likes of Markovic, Firminho, Lovren etc...will eventually come good and prove to be very shrewd signings.

Or, they can wake up and face the cold hard realities which is that their squad is absolutely bang average. There are very, very few signs that ANY of the young players are going to turn into world class footballers. Don't give me the likes of Can, Ibe and Gomez, I'm talking real top quality players, the calibre of which is needed to win a PL title, and from what I have seen these two lads look handy but not that standard.

This is not a dig or a wind up. We were in exactly this position 18 months ago. We were banging on about the likes of Welbeck, Hernandez, Zaha, Kagawa, Cleverley, Rafael etc....saying "IF they stay fit" or IF they get a run of games in their favoured position" etc....but the reality is they were not good enough and never will be

I genuinely think they need to tear it up and start again and I don't think Rodgers is the man to do it. Makes too many poor decisions when it comes to recruitment to be trusted having a second go at building a side. The side he inherited is better than the side he has now and that is a damning truth for him I am afraid
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I don't think that's fair on Liverpool. As much as some deluded RAWKites might like to believe, they do not have the spending power we do. That in turn means they can neither afford to make as many mistakes or correct them as quickly.

The likes of Benteke, Firmino etc are the level of players they can get. It's when the manager goes for daft signings like Lambert that problems arise. Henderson is easily good enough for them, so are young talents like Ibe and Gomez. It's upto them to have a squad wherein these players are developed rather than be starters and the pressure that comes with it.

The way to the top is aa long one for clubs like Pool unless you have a worldie pulling you there like Suarez did. They have the resources to finish 5th. They need to make it happen though with good signings which they haven't done. Even with their current squad, if they play to their ability, they can do it. Atm though, they play poorly.

I do agree about Rodgers's signings though. Far too much money spent on dross. He needs to do better with his resources and more importantly, needs to make better use of what he has. There is no way they can't beat the likes of Spurs or Everton to the 5th spot.
 
B20 said:
Ancelotti, De Boer would be ideal. Unai Emery would also be good.

Or we should be the team that finally brings Bielsa to the prem. Not sure it would go well, but it'd be a ride.
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I don't see Ancelotti as a good fit for you be seems more comfortable working with a set squad though I may be wrong. De Boer looks like a good bet though. Who knows you might actually strike lucky with Klopp, can definitely see it happening.
 
bleedred said:
Honest question for Liverpool fans.

Do you think, expectation levels would have been a lot less of him, had Liverpool not had that one good season. If you look over the last 7-8 years that was like a outlier and finishing outside top 4 has been the trend.
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No. My expectations were clear in that we should challenge for top 4.

If anything, I've been far more patient due to that one season.

He's lost his way though. he's not the same manager he was two years ago and he isn't getting it back either. Getting more desperate with every week.
 
Varun said:
I don't see Ancelotti as a good fit for you be seems more comfortable working with a set squad though I may be wrong. De Boer looks like a good bet though. Who knows you might actually strike lucky with Klopp, can definitely see it happening.
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I can too. It should be too good to be true, but it seems like it can happen.
 
I can't any manager performing miracles with that CM. It's dire for the level they think they should be. Stupid decision not even attempting to sign Cabaye.
 
Watching clips of them vs Norwich on MOTD last night, it's probably fair to say they could have scored a few, but then again so could Norwich have. I do they look better with Sturridge up there with Benteke.
 
Adisa said:
I can't any manager performing miracles with that CM. It's dire for the level they think they should be. Stupid decision not even attempting to sign Cabaye.
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Henderson Milner Can are good options for the middle 2. Coutinho and Firmino are obviously good options for the #10. He isn't getting the best out of them, it isn't a lack of quality considering no one expects them to be title challengers but to be 5th ahead of the likes of Everton and Spurs. Barry, mccarthy, Gibson and Dyer, Mason, Bentaleb are their options for the middle 2.
 
Varun said:
Henderson Milner Can are good options for the middle 2. Coutinho and Firmino are obviously good options for the #10. He isn't getting the best out of them, it isn't a lack of quality considering no one expects them to be title challengers but to be 5th ahead of the likes of Everton and Spurs. Barry, mccarthy, Gibson and Dyer, Mason, Bentaleb are their options for the middle 2.
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Pretty selective comparison. Everton have better centrebacks, Tottenham have a better goalkeeper so why wouldn't they be ahead?
 
rocks13 said:
Pretty selective comparison. Everton have better centrebacks, Tottenham have a better goalkeeper so why wouldn't they be ahead?
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Check the post I quoted to understand why I discussed just the CM options.
 
Varun said:
Henderson Milner Can are good options for the middle 2. Coutinho and Firmino are obviously good options for the #10. He isn't getting the best out of them, it isn't a lack of quality considering no one expects them to be title challengers but to be 5th ahead of the likes of Everton and Spurs. Barry, mccarthy, Gibson and Dyer, Mason, Bentaleb are their options for the middle 2.
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I think Everton are ATM stronger in every position than Liverpool. You mentioned Barry McCharty and Gibson but they have also Besic, Cleverley and Barkley. A midfield of McCharty, Cleverley and Barkley is better than any Liverpool combination.
And when you consider that they have much stronger defense with Baines (sadly out for quite a long time), Stones, Jagielka and Coleman, better striker in Lukaku, better goalkeeper and better wingers it will be quite of achievement for Rodgers to put Liverpool infront of Everton on the table this season.
It tells a lot that probably Liverpool best players in Coutinho and Sturridge/Benteke would have a hard time coming in Everton first 11 infront of Barkley and Lukaku.

As i said Liverpool team at the moment is a mess and Rodgers made that mess. LVG was heavily criticised this season by not bringing in another striker, winger or a defender but you just have to look at Liverpool what happens if you buy just for the sake of buying and not because players you are buying are good enough.
It is a hard decision from their owners to sack Rodgers ATM because they trusted him so much money in last seasons and if they change a manager they should be prepared for yet another rebuilding similar what happened to us under LVG but sadly or happily from our point of view they will probably struggle again to bring top players or even top talents.
 
Jerch said:
I think Everton are ATM stronger in every position than Liverpool. You mentioned Barry McCharty and Gibson but they have also Besic, Cleverley and Barkley. A midfield of McCharty, Cleverley and Barkley is better than any Liverpool combination.
And when you consider that they have much stronger defense with Baines (sadly out for quite a long time), Stones, Jagielka and Coleman, better striker in Lukaku, better goalkeeper and better wingers it will be quite of achievement for Rodgers to put Liverpool infront of Everton on the table this season.
It tells a lot that probably Liverpool best players in Coutinho and Sturridge/Benteke would have a hard time coming in Everton first 11 infront of Barkley and Lukaku.

As i said Liverpool team at the moment is a mess and Rodgers made that mess. LVG was heavily criticised this season by not bringing in another striker, winger or a defender but you just have to look at Liverpool what happens if you buy just for the sake of buying and not because players you are buying are good enough.
It is a hard decision from their owners to sack Rodgers ATM because they trusted him so much money in last seasons and if they change a manager they should be prepared for yet another rebuilding similar what happened to us under LVG but sadly or happily from our point of view they will probably struggle again to bring top players or even top talents.
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I'd rather have Henderson, Milner and Coutinho than the 3 you mentioned for Everton. Clev is very average and Barkley is overrated in terms of his current level. Lukaku is good but both sturridge and Benteke are better strikers in my book. The Everton back 5 is better though, I agree.

I do agree the squad isn't as good as it should be considering the money spent, I said so in my earlier post blaming Rodgers for some poor signings but I believe he isn't even getting the best out of what he has which is worse.
 
Varun said:
I'd rather have Henderson, Milner and Coutinho than the 3 you mentioned for Everton. Clev is very average and Barkley is overrated in terms of his current level. Lukaku is good but both sturridge and Benteke are better strikers in my book. The Everton back 5 is better though, I agree.

I do agree the squad isn't as good as it should be considering the money spent, I said so in my earlier post blaming Rodgers for some poor signings but I believe he isn't even getting the best out of what he has which is worse.
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For a start a midfield of McCharty, Cleverley and Barkley is much more balanced then a Henderson, Milner and Coutinho. You can argue that a midfield of Henderson, Can and Coutinho is better then the Everton one. And they could played Milner on a wing because TBF they lack good wingers.
But i think you underestimate all three players in that Everton midfield. McCharty is very good especially for top-midtable side, you clearly underestimate Cleverley and if you would ask me who is more overrated, Barkley or Coutinho i know who would i answer.

As for Lukaku he is 2 years younger then Benteke and scored 20 (in 48 games) last season to Beteke 15 (in 33 games) and he had a bad season. This season Lukaku scored 4 in 7 games and Benteke 2 is 6 games. I think Lukaku is better then Benteke but if this is debatable, the one who have a higher potential is clearly Lukaku.
And people forget that Sturridge is not a young promising striker anymore, he is 26, he is injuried for more then half of his career and i can't see him staying fit for a long time. He had one wordclass season and a good first half of the season with Liverpool but the injuries keeps coming one after another.
 
Adisa said:
I can't any manager performing miracles with that CM. It's dire for the level they think they should be. Stupid decision not even attempting to sign Cabaye.
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So many very good signings they could have had like Cabaye but also Payet, Ayew, Gueye and Amavi all of which would of improved them for not much money. Fiminio and Benteke will be good signings but they get so little value and quality from the market.
 
If they're smart they will have to act quickly. Rodgers obviously won't be there at this point next year, it's just a question if they sack him now before christmas or if they wait till end of the season. With Klopp and Favre there are two good managers available right now who would take the Liverpool job (Ancelotti is available as well but I doubt he would go to Pool) - it will be different in the summer, where I see quite a few manager jobs available at bigger clubs than Liverpool.
 
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