Neither Henderson or Milner are even competent at playing as a DM. Lucas is but he is average contrary to what Liverpool fans may think . Coutinho Henderson and Milner is a midfield that won't provide any support to the defence and will concede. Plus Milner isn't a very good creative mid to offset that with attacking prowess. And coutinho is a 10. He isn't a 8. He can play in midfield if he has a matic and a Herrera kind of players alongside him. Milner or Henderson maybe like Herrera but they have no one even close to matic. Barry and McCarthy can do that well enough for Everton and thus Barkley or clev can play in midfield freely
Liverpool : General discussion
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Neither Henderson or Milner are even competent at playing as a DM. Lucas is but he is average contrary to what Liverpool fans may think . Coutinho Henderson and Milner is a midfield that won't provide any support to the defence and will concede. Plus Milner isn't a very good creative mid to offset that with attacking prowess. And coutinho is a 10. He isn't a 8. He can play in midfield if he has a matic and a Herrera kind of players alongside him. Milner or Henderson maybe like Herrera but they have no one even close to matic. Barry and McCarthy can do that well enough for Everton and thus Barkley or clev can play in midfield freely
Coutinho Henderson and Gerrard (who according to most was well past it by then) was our most played midfield in 2013/14, Allen was most used as backup. Rather debunks your theory doesn't it.
Knew this would happen in the medium term. Liverpool fans clinging to performances of players from season 2013-14 and deluding themselves into thinking they can reach that sort of level again. It was a once-off.
(Not being smart because I have done it myself often enough Eg Rafael,Evans,Cleverley,Nani,Welbeck,Hernandez all had good spells I kept convincing myself they would achieve again)
We conceded 50 goals that campaign. The most we've conceded since Souness in 94 where we conceded 55 in 42 games.
Lucas isn't average - But then, I don't know why I bother when you say we have no "Matic player" with Lucas in the squad yet think Everton have one in McCarthy.
The KRAP campaign doing its job!
but your defense shipped 50 goals that year.
It does seem a long time ago since that Moyes statue was erected outside Anfield.
Milner Can play the deepest CM role especially given Henderson is there to support him. Coutinho as the AM ahead of them. Once everyone is fit, that's how they will line up too. Barry for Everton is a more natural DM but as I said, I don't rate their 3 as better than Pool's in terms of ability. Unlike Martinez though, Rodgers isn't getting the best out of his team.
I know it's just paper talk, but I suspect Coutinho will be angling for a move end of season.
If he has a good season, he will be off imo.
Yet you lot conceded 50 goals in the league
I don't think that's a sensible way to go about things. These talents have to be developed while having the solid squad players. With time, they take over from these mentioned solid players. They can't just ignore the short term to focus on the long term imo.
Milner is a crap CM. No awareness at all of what's going on around him both on and off the ball.
Your defence still did not receive enough protection from midfield that season and the only reason why you still put up a title challenge was because of Suarez and Sturridge. You conceded over 50 goals.
The problem with Liverpool now is not "good players under-performing or being poorly managed" - apart from Coutinho and (when fit) Sturridge it is fairly ordinary players playing at their normal level. If they finish somewhere around 8-10th that is probably a fair reflection of where they are at the moment
Is it feck. We aren't a top 4 side but we have a squad that should be easily finishing 5th with the right manager in charge, and with the potential to challenge for 4th.
I brought it up just to show a point really. It's pointless to say that this midfield (that has weaknesses for sure) does neither this nor that well when in fact an almost identical, if not inferior one if we are to believe the Gerrard comments, was more than good enough. It may or may not have been a rare occurrence but that's besides the point. In all likelihood those three would be good enough if there was a much better player at the base of that diamond.
I don't see any Liverpool fans, no matter how much the idea entertains you, clinging to 2013/14 and thinking it's repeatable with this team/squad. Suarez is and was a phenomenon that season.
Its an interesting debate about whether its an average/top four squad, but imagine what this squad would be doing now if they had managed to hang on to Suarez?
Look at your defence - its a shambles apart from Clyne who is decent. Skrtel is awful and Lovren is one of the worst CB's in the Premier League.
Look at your central midfield - Henderson, Milner, Allen, Lucas - all competent players who run around a lot but when was the last time any of those was described as "a class player"?
Benteke is a good striker but not in that system
And we scored 101 (or was it 102), so again his assertion that that midfield couldn't support the attack is wrong.
Coutinho, Benteke and Sturridge are top 4 level. Their defence minus Mignolet is reasonable, and the midfield can do a decent job through high work-rate. They have an advantage over all the teams bar the top 4 since they have at least decent players in every position. Liverpool should be finishing 5th if it wasn't for Rodgers current ineptitudes. Top 4 though, I think their squad is quite lacking in top quality for that.
There is bias and then there is just delusion.
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I saw this summary on a Yahoo article...
'Pool over the last 17 months....
Poor Liverpool. Things seem to have got progressively worse for the Reds since Steve Gerrard screamed that he wanted his team-mates to “go again” as they were seemingly galloping towards the Premier League title about 17 months ago. But then he fell over against Chelsea, then Suarez left, then Markovic arrived, then Lovren arrived, then Balotelli arrived, then Sturridge got injured, then they lost to Basel, then they lost to Besiktas, then they lost to Aston Villa, then they lost 6-1 to Stoke, then Sterling left, and then even Stevie G himself left. And then Jordan Henderson broke his foot and they drew at home to Norwich. Poor, poor Liverpool.
'Pool over the last 17 months....
Poor Liverpool. Things seem to have got progressively worse for the Reds since Steve Gerrard screamed that he wanted his team-mates to “go again” as they were seemingly galloping towards the Premier League title about 17 months ago. But then he fell over against Chelsea, then Suarez left, then Markovic arrived, then Lovren arrived, then Balotelli arrived, then Sturridge got injured, then they lost to Basel, then they lost to Besiktas, then they lost to Aston Villa, then they lost 6-1 to Stoke, then Sterling left, and then even Stevie G himself left. And then Jordan Henderson broke his foot and they drew at home to Norwich. Poor, poor Liverpool.
None of Clyne, Gomez or Sakho are anywhere near to being a 'shambles', behave yourself. Skrtel has a good record despite his inability on the ball, he's not a top CB but neither is he crap. He's generally very reliable and a very good tackler, with great stats for last gasp tackles ... which actually highlights his weakness, he doesn't read the game well and shouldn't be engaging in last gasp tackles so frequently.
Coming from a Liverpool fan??? Oh, the irony! Is this "your year"?
How original.Coming from a Liverpool fan??? Oh, the irony! Is this "your year"?
A much fairer and considered opinion without bias. Pretty much agree with everything though I do think that there are very few stand out teams (maybe only City) this season and finishing in the Top 4 could come down to getting into form and going on a run. The mid-table teams are much stronger this year, because the PL money has enabled them to buy much higher quality players than previously, and they will take points off the Top 5-6 teams more often. Top 4 could be achieved with 5-10 points fewer than in previous seasons.
While I don't agree with the notion that your midfield is utter crap, I also think it's too easy to look at the goals scored and conclude that the midfield can in theory support the attack. Look at how Liverpool played at the time, Suarez didn't just bring quality and goals to the side, but the mental part of his presence was at least equally important - the rest of the team could let their shoulders down and relax in the knowledge that making mistakes wasn't a disaster, because Suarez would bail them out most of the time. Playing and competing under those circumstances is a completely different thing to playing in the current Liverpool side. So, while the midfield did provide decent support at the time, the circumstances were so extraordinary that it doesn't hold much relevance for today. Maybe a poor comparison, but the same can be said about us concerning SAF; players who obviously weren't good enough to win the title still won it, but that didn't do much good once the source of their success was gone.
I don't think so. The top 4 is miles ahead of you at least on paper, even United, although light up front.
Then it's a tossup.
I'd consider Spurs better than you in terms of squad. Also in terms of spine Lloris, Verthongen, Erikssen, Kane(although not convinced about him, but he can stay fit, so that's better than Sturridge) is better spine than what you've got.
Then Palace, Soton, Swansea, you - tossup.
What you quoted to rebut was "won't provide any support to the defence and will concede."
He never said that that midfield couldn't support the attack.
I think a lot of Liverpool fans think that the players who are still around can repeat their performances of that season. Of course even that wouldn't be enough without the gifted Suarez.
So many of that Liverpool squad were carried by Suarez that year that you are unlikely to see the likes of Henderson,Sturridge,Skrtel(he scored 7 league goals
),Coutinho etc ever perform close to what they achieved that year.Be fair to Liverpool, they've had a tough start in their away fixtures (Arsenal and United).
But their home fixtures should have been relatively straight forward. Granted West Ham are a bit of a surprise package but you shouldn't be losing at home to them, but getting just 4 points at home from 3 games against Bournemouth, Norwich and West Ham really isn't good enough. Scoring 2 goals and conceding 4. I'd be concerned with that form.
But it's early days to be judging Liverpool as they've made a number of signings that will require a bit of time to gel. Interesting season for them though as I can see it going very pear shaped and the fans losing patience if this form continues.
But their home fixtures should have been relatively straight forward. Granted West Ham are a bit of a surprise package but you shouldn't be losing at home to them, but getting just 4 points at home from 3 games against Bournemouth, Norwich and West Ham really isn't good enough. Scoring 2 goals and conceding 4. I'd be concerned with that form.
But it's early days to be judging Liverpool as they've made a number of signings that will require a bit of time to gel. Interesting season for them though as I can see it going very pear shaped and the fans losing patience if this form continues.
His quote was that it couldn't support the defence, not attack.
True - not specifically. But saying a midfield can't defend, or lacks creativity (which he did mention) whilst ignoring their support of the attack is a little disingenuous because both are relevant and if it's a 2:1 ratio I'd take that any day of the week, as would anyone I suspect. Unfortunately there is no Suarez, an unfit Sturridge, and Henderson is missing ... so none of this is currently relevant and I'm just waffling !
Blows kiss. Happy to entertain and brighten your afternoon.
There problems seem to have been compounded over time, namely:
- Finally feeling the effects of selling their best players and buying a large amount of average players (coutinho and clyine being the obvious exceptions imo)
- Investing heavily in a striker that doesn't suit their style of play.
- Rodgers not knowing his best 11, or what system he wants to play.
- The bigger problem is that there seems to be no belief or fight in any of the players.
I think Rodgers has to go, but i'm not sure a mid season sacking will improve their chances of finishing higher up this year. He should have gone in the summer.
- Finally feeling the effects of selling their best players and buying a large amount of average players (coutinho and clyine being the obvious exceptions imo)
- Investing heavily in a striker that doesn't suit their style of play.
- Rodgers not knowing his best 11, or what system he wants to play.
- The bigger problem is that there seems to be no belief or fight in any of the players.
I think Rodgers has to go, but i'm not sure a mid season sacking will improve their chances of finishing higher up this year. He should have gone in the summer.
The main issue is Rodgers, he really looks desperate and that is highlighted by his team selections. With another manager this squad should be doing well enough to be 5th and maybe 4th (depending on the form of last season's top 4) once the new players have settled in and Sturridge and Henderson are back.