Liverpool 2016/17 - Performance and chat thread.
- Thread starter Parry Gallister
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How many AM's do you need in a squad? Seems very unbalanced to me.
Well if you are talking about Coutinho, Firmino, Lallana, Grujic and Wijnaldum then that's not many at all considering their versatility and that I imagine Coutinho, Lallana and Firmino will all rotate as part of the front three (with Mane and CFs) whilst Mijnaldum will be at the point of the three behind (Grujic will also play there as backup / sub.). And balance comes from having sufficient / decent replacements all over the pitch. We are probably only lacking a defensive midfielder and better FB support at present.
I think the fact that their central midfield is a motley of jack-of-all-trades is more concerning to squad balance than their attacking midfielders.
Yes my point is that there seems to be a plethora of AM's and a serious lack of quality in the centre of the park which is why I find it unbalanced and odd that so far this doesnt seem to have been a focus in this window.
I agree that there has been no balance in midfield but it seems Klopp is trying to address that. Can improved immensely last season and will be a very fine player if he continues that improvement. Grujic looks to be a real find for the future to compete with Wijnaldum for the point of the midfield trio. Dahoud was high on Klopp's wish list though I think we will have to wait a season before trying again. Allen is on his way now and unless Henderson finds his form from 2013/14 and 2014/15 (also overcoming his foot issues/injuries) then he'll be gone next season, Milner's as good a squad backup as you'll find but again I can see this being his last season at the club.
I do agree that Can has improved (even though I'm still not much of a fan of him) and Grujic looks like a bit of a gem, but still, these players are 'all-action' types rather than having set specialist roles. It'll probably suit Klopp's gung-ho style, but as it stands you really don't have a midfielder who'll sit deep to dictate play, or competently screen the defence that was quite weak last season, particularly if you skimp on a cheap LB like Amavi or Chilwell who have been linked. Though Matip doesn't look bad at all, preseason only and all, but I like how he moves with the ball.
We have been screaming out for a specialist DM for years .. however that's not how Klopp rolls so I don't expect to see one now. The links to Medel were interesting though in that he is of that ilk. However normally I'd expect to see three mobile CMs, maybe 3 B2B type CMs inc. one a consistent goal scorer. In that vision Can, Dahoud and Wijnaldum fit the bill. We may have to make-do for this season as I doubt we can upgrade on all the teams weaknesses in one window.
Lucas, Can, Milner, Hendo, Grujic, Wijlnaldum, Coutinho, Lallana, (Firmino - striker) Mane (width) as a MF Group isn't unbalanced as such is it?
the totally impossible renaissance of Markovic into a vaguely competent top level player and you're completely sorted,
the totally impossible renaissance of Markovic into a vaguely competent top level player and you're completely sorted,
That depends on if you think Lucas, Milner and Henderson are good enough. Can seems decent but again he is a utility player who can play in various positions - is he a midfield specialist? The rest are all attacking midfielders.
Aye, over on RAWK, every single one of SAF's title winning teams were average. They wouldn't have swapped any of our players for theirs. So the same story went, every season. But yeah, that's RAWK. Not the thread.
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Until the next level and/or some more turnover of bodies, I think that is what the thoughts are, yes.
Fair enough, though if it was me I would see a quality central midfielder as more of a priority than an average AM when you already have at least 5 at the club.
Not even by RAWK, but most of the mainstream press too, that particular season anyway.
I bet deep down most Liverpool supporters are absolutely sick and tired of these kinds of transfers.
They will be proper fed up Xmas when they're struggling to break into the top 4 yet again.
I think that is about it, tbf. Competing for Top 4... sorry I'll qualify that slightly. Looking like they could compete for Top 4 = better than last year, some decent footy, fewer obvious weaknesses/silly individual mistakes. The slightly flexible definition looks achievable, that's what the (level of) signings are for.
Not many people (not even FSG & the Loyal-est fans if it goes a bit 'pear') seem all that understanding of the squad imbalances he obviously needs to sort but that's modern day footy innit?
Wijnaldum? Really?
Awful signing.
Awful signing.
Good question. I hear this in the media, Talk Sport etc. often but nobody ever elaborates on our 'deeper problems'. If having Jose as manager, a pretty good pool of youth talent, a massive transfer budget, the ability to attract top players (even with no Champions League next season) and a recent FA Cup win, whilst playing poorly under the previous manager are signs of these 'deeper problems' then I'd hate to see other club's 'problems'.
A new interpretation / defining of what it means to be United and making decisions out of this. What are you standing for after 10 years of the Glazers and a stil awake remembering of SAF? What is the special thing about how United play? Also in the youth. In the last 10 years or so you guys have narrowed youre sight on your own club to the point that you are naturaly a topclub ,acting like other soullless clubs you hate - especally in terms of buying and squadbuilding- and feel fine with this big names buying by adding some feeling of "good old times, we got tradition" which is used to see a slightly difference to other clubs in the PL. The label United is fray if you compare it to the 90ies and later, and thre are reasons for it. At this time you feed yourself from the last remnant of this old big United which got a soul, but maybe this will have an end if you dont check yourself from top to the buttom and ask the question above in front of yourself again and got some good answer. Yeah ok, everybody feels great "we will get Pogba! 120 € mate, massive!" "with Mourinho, last year we laught about him, now he will be the messias and we will win something again!", but if it turns out like under LVG, maybe it would be good not only to focus on the next shiny player who might come to you cause you still have a name and money and do some deeper work.
You don't know that for sure though unless you have the insight on what Klopp is doing?
We have tried to sign a central midfielder, Dahoud from monchengladbach but hasn't worked out - the window is still open you know....
Bullet points would have been nice!
I mean, there's a lot of nonsense in there. (Content wise, not having a go.) But to answer what I think are your key ideas.
Actually United have been spending big on players for a long time. We don't hate buying players. We hate clubs who have it handed to them by sugar daddies.
We'd love another class of 92. I'm sure you'd love us to wait the 50 years it might take to get lucky again while the club goes bankrupt. Also it seems our youth system is doing okay after last season.
Of course we laughed at Mourinho at Chelsea. Doesn't mean we didn't think he was a good manager and the one we should have hired after Saf.
The Pogba situation has given you a good soundbite. The fact is we need world class players to challenge for the title. Woodward has made a fortune with sponsorships and I think most fans are happy we are spending it on great players even if we are overpaying.
Frankly no. As mentioned above United broke transfer records. Even in 1963 Denis law was bought by Matt busby for a record fee so it's not like we were buying less costly players till 3 years back.
We have upcoming youngsters like fosu mensah Rashford pereira so our academy is fine. I understand with mourinho there won't be a lot of graduates but it's fine. How many academy players does Liverpool have in their first team? Arsenal? City with their best academy structure and shit? We seem to have more than them already.
Pogba will be our first player to cross 60m. Plus we can afford it. If I were you, I'd be more worried you guys spending close to 60m on schurle and gotze two very average players.
Have to agree. Nothing player who will show up every now and again against weak opposition.
Same accusation has been thrown at Mane too. It does worry me no doubt but at least we've moved on from buying players that completely don't fit our style of play (Ballotelli/Benteke) to ones that do but may not bother turning up. Here I have to trust Klopp is a better manager and motivator than Rodgers. At least unlike Rodgers Klopp is buying to his footballing style.
I would love to sign Gotze, Xhaka and Mikhytarian but that was never going to happen even with Klopp in charge. So I'm hoping/praying for a Dortmund style renaissance, don't have much choice.
One thing I will say to answer @balaks is yes we have a lot of AMs now. And most of them would not walk into any other top 8 side. None of them can score goals for a start, except maybe Firmino and even he gives the ball away far too much. I'm happy to keep rotating our AMs until we find the right ones rather than keep the same mediocrity and expect different results.
Gotze just moved to Dortmund for less than what Wijnaldum cost, so not really sure why he was unobtainable for Liverpool http://www.football365.com/news/dortmund-confirm-signing-of-gotze-for-just-21m.
For me, Mane is far better than Wijnaldum, I mean the only game I really saw Wijnaldum perform last season was against Norwich who are a truly terrible side. He certainly wouldn't be my cup of tea, anyway.
I think you are hitting the nail on the head there - you agree that most of your AM's would not walk into any other top 8 side so instead of getting rid of some of them and replacing them with a better quality AM you are hoping that by rotating the mostly average ones you have (and adding yet another (so far) average one into the mix) will somehow create better results. I'd be worried if I were you.
Gotze didn't want to go to Liverpool. I they had a price agreed and everything worked out but Gotze pulled out and sacked his agent
Cool, didn't know that.
I would have thought the lure of playing for Klopp again and the fact that Liverpool would have surely been able to offer superior wages (I assume, anyway) would have made them a relatively attractive proposition for Gotze.
Point often missed. Thanks.
Mikhytarian and Gotze weren't coming so we had to rotate with something different. Its better than keeping the same and expecting something different. I'd be more worried if we didn't do something and Rodgers was still here looking to play quick football while buying Benteke.
Liverpool are a mid table Premiership club without Champions League - currently they are not able to attract the likes of Gotze (neither are my club Spurs for that matter and we have finished above Liverpool for the last number of seasons and at least we can claim to be a top 5 club).
You regularly miss the point - transfer window is still open, I am sure Klopp is better placed than all of us to understand the merits of the squad.
I'm aware there is still time for things to change and there may be a signing yet who could change my opinion but right now there is a clear imbalance in the squad and you have just spent another £25million on a player who imo does not offer you anything better than you already have in a position were you already are stacked with players.
I would have fully agreed with this statement a-few years ago. But it's clear that players go where the money is these days. Look at some of the players that have signed for mid table PL clubs when they could have stayed at their current clubs and played European football, Payet to West Ham last season springs to mind. We also signed Di Maria who had just won the CL, off the back of our worst ever PL season
Probably the result of how long they've been stuck outside of the top 4.
7th
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Who would pick that over Dortmund? Maybe if they won the Europa final and had CL he would have come
Not really, Wiljandum offers us something we lack. A genuine goal threat from midfield. I haven't a clue where that leaves the likes of Lallana and Firmino. But Mane and Wiljandum both improve our pace and midfield options considerably.
Add that to hopefully a fit Sturridge and Coutinho then attack wise we look okay with good options in reserve too.
We do probably lack a dominant CM and obviously a decent LB - but Klopp has tried to address both of those also.
You have to understand this his is first summer window and the chance to make his first major changes on the playing squad.
Man Utd are in a different situation to every other club in England though and can still attract world class players even after a bad season. Yes you are right in that the Premiership is awash with cash now and the likes of Stoke and West Ham can sign well-known players - but I would still argue that the quality of those players is at a lower level than the likes of Gotze (despite him not being at his best recently) - Payet has been fantastic of course but when West Ham signed him he had a lower profile than he is now and it could have gone either way for him (still a fantastic signing).
Fourty games last season with a return of 11 goals and 5 assists is hardly that much of a goal threat (considering 4 of those goals came in the one match). His scoring record for Holland is hardly anything to write home about, either. I feel he's a very mediocre player and for an attacking player, his output isn't too amazing.
There is your problem and what I am trying to highlight.