Apart from @montpelier and maybe a handful of other decent posters this thread is all about belittling managers' past records. Why have you singled me out?
Liverpool 2016/17 - Performance and chat thread.
- Thread starter Parry Gallister
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Apart from @montpelier and maybe a handful of other decent posters this thread is all about belittling managers' past records. Why have you singled me out?
Yeah good money for someone in his last year and not a striker. Or even a starter.
Wanyama a starter for Southampton went for 12M in the last year of his contract.
The fee is par.
Of course id have preferred to keep him.
The fee is par.
Of course id have preferred to keep him.
What do you Liverpool fans make of the transfer? I can already grasp @Bob Loblaw's response, who probably only holds Lallana in worse stead, but the rest? I know he's always been a bit of a running gag in the past but I'd say his last few months saw him end as your best performing central midfielder, and he then continued the good form with a very impressive Euros showing. I don't think he seemed entirely out of place in Klopp's system either, if anything, he managed to adapt relatively well.
Lallana would be fine if he offered something different from Coutinho and Firmino, ideally goals.
Not sure we have enough games this season for him to be a regular starter over those two or Mane. He'll probably feature heavily in cup games then request a transfer.
Not sure we have enough games this season for him to be a regular starter over those two or Mane. He'll probably feature heavily in cup games then request a transfer.
Allen improved a lot under Klopp in fairness, I definitely didn't hate seeing him start the way I used to under Rodgers.
I would have happy enough for him to stay as a squad player in the end, but he's not really good enough to command a regularly starting role and I guess he wanted that.
You do know, that Borussia Dortmund was basically driven into ruin by Zorc´s superiors at the beginning of the millenium, right? Zorc´s work was far from perfect, especially in the beginning when he had to learn the ropes. However, since 2005 he had a very strong record in the transfer market and continued to be successful after Klopp left.
Klopp played a huge part in building the league winning team, as he is an excellent talent developer and shaper. He also had a lot of say in buying players and later became one of the main powers of attracting them. This does not mean he is an expert at discovering major talents, though. That was not even his job. Even Zorc should not get the main credit for that as while he is responsible for the scouting department he does not scout himself.
If I would had to name a single person for our success in finding talents and quality players, it would be Sven Mislintat, our head scout since 2007. He became well known mostly for finding Kagawa in the second japanese league, but there are a lot of other players, whom he discovered early. Lewandowski, Aubameyang, Dembele and Guerreiro to name a few. Mislintat is one of the best scouts in the scene, probably the only one who rivals former Leverkusen now Bayern head scout Michael Reschke as the best in Germany.
I find it amusing that so many want to pin the success of Dortmund on a single person (depending on the club they support) when most of it were team efforts and had far more people involved behind the scenen, who contributed a lot to the success. Liverpool signing Klopp got them a great coach in a lot of areas and has the potential to improve the spirit around the club. There is a lot more than signing a top coach to it to make them successful again, though, as this is just one part. In Dortmund there were a lot of people who are great at what they do together at the right time. There is no guarantie that this can be replicated by Liverpool.
I just stated that those players weren't household names before they got them, but then asked what are the chances of that happening again?
Nice post and I'm sure spot on. I'm sure scouting players that can take 2 steps up was secondary for most Liverpool supporters compared to his coaching and tactics and the ability of Klopp to elevate teams above their component parts through the use of teamwork.
However it should also be noted that Klopp has brought some important members of his team with him and that I'm sure that the contacts and scouting circles BVB utilise will be common knowledge amongst them, and no doubt some of them amongst the scouting teams of every top team in Europe. Identifying potential targets is one thing, making a decision on them and bringing them in and then coaching them to the next level or two is something else, they didn't arrive as undiscovered superstars ! We are hoping that the decision making and coaching is just as important.
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I seriously doubt there are very few managers in the history of football who can take much credit for 'discovering' talent. Scouting departments & the like get paid for doing that job. What sets managers apart is just how well they develop that talent. & as you've already stated, Klopp is very good at helping players realize their full potential. Right now we have quite a few young players who have that potential. I can't think of another manager I'd want more to help them hopefully achieve their full capabilities. Of course, that's not to say he'll do that with many, or any, of them. But with him in charge, at least it gives us a fighting chance.
One could ask the same question of any successful manager. Mourinho for example. Successful managers seem to have a blueprint in their heads of what works and are able to implement it. Klopp doesn't have as long of a track record of success at as many clubs as Mourinho of course, for obvious reasons, but if player identification, coaching and tactics are all just as important then we will be on the right track. Please also refer to my post just above #290.
Sky reporting Newcastle have accepted a bid in the region of £25m from Liverpool for Georginio Wijnaldum
Decent business that. Might be a go either way the signing.
Decent business that. Might be a go either way the signing.
Liverpool are hardly setting the world alight with their signings are they.
I genuinely expected them to grab gotze. Their fans are in complete denial if they think they are making strides forward, they have lost the welsh pirlo in Allen, and the better than Martial, Ibe. Whilst signing a load of randoms and Mane.
I have really been talking Liverpool up saying when Klopp gets his team they would be a threat, but we, City and Chelsea are making the better signings so far, on paper anyway.
I genuinely expected them to grab gotze. Their fans are in complete denial if they think they are making strides forward, they have lost the welsh pirlo in Allen, and the better than Martial, Ibe. Whilst signing a load of randoms and Mane.
I have really been talking Liverpool up saying when Klopp gets his team they would be a threat, but we, City and Chelsea are making the better signings so far, on paper anyway.
So they'er after Wjinaldum for £25m? What do y'all think? Seems like a mediocre one to me. The player has skills on the ball and the skill of vanishing on a football pitch.
I'm sorry but did you honestly expect us to be spending the same amounts of money as you three ? Seriously ? If not then what did you expect ?
We are buying (with one exception) young players (18 - 25) who have good records already and who the scouting team (inc. Klopp, Buvac etc.) feel will suit our tactics or / and have room for substantial improvement. IMHO every one of the transfers so far has been good business and on paper looks to be an upgrade on the previous incumbents. Proof of the pudding will be in the eating of course but we should at least give them time before declaring them inadequate. Wasn't every United fan thrilled at the Di Maria and Falcao signings for example ? Weren't they supposed to carry you to the PL title ? Sometimes even the most exciting transfer can flop and occasionally those not so vaunted triumph (all hail Leicester FC). Whether you pay £100m or £5m there are no guarantees either way.
£25m inc.add ons. Base figure unknown as yet. Bid has been accepted.
Was Netherlands Player of the Year in 2014/15. Newcastle's Player of the Year 2015/16 with 5 assists and 11 goals from midfield. If he contributes that to the 2016/17 season then I'll be well satisfied because we have lacked goals from midfield ever since Gerrard left. He could turn out to be a very decent acquisition. We'll have to see how he's played and whose place he takes.
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Stop with your stupid logic. I would prefer you to type out in bolded text that Can is superior to Pogba, Ingsinho a bigger talent than Rashford, Lallana on par or greater than Martial and Mane way better than Micky Targaryan.
Better than the biased shite of some posters. And if you want to talk about stupid ... just read back your post.
Liverpool fans can dress it up all they want but their transfer business has been hugely underwhelming so far. They are topping out with good mid table players.
Wijnaldum is very average.
Here are his goals from last season.
Lallana all over again. Same sort of stats for a midtable club.
They now have at least 4 players whos best position is at 10.
Lallana,Countiho,Firmino,Wijnaldum.
You could add Mane as well.
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@Rafateria
Imagine that United had made the same signings as Liverpool and Liverpool the same signings as United.
How would you view the relative merits of the players in that case?
Imagine that United had made the same signings as Liverpool and Liverpool the same signings as United.
How would you view the relative merits of the players in that case?
We shall certainly see just how good Klopp is because if he gets top 4 with these signings it will be impressive.
They may be making the mistake we made last season of buying a few 30m players rather than the one player that can really change things.
They may be making the mistake we made last season of buying a few 30m players rather than the one player that can really change things.
In both cases the managers are looking to fill what they deem to be weaknesses whilst implementing new tactics and formations. For both it may take time but United have a ton more cash to throw around.
Had I been a United fan I would not be sure that United are making the signings that they really need (Mkhitaryan & Pogba aside - if it happens, overpaid by £40m but United don't care about that). Ibra is a great striker but of course at 35 only a single season stop-gap and it remains to be seen if he can reach the heights of even last season in a much tougher league. So an awful lot of responsibility on two ageing (read: old) centre forwards (Ibra & Rooney 35) with really United's only other option moving Martial inside. Even we have better CF options than that, and we will likely be playing at least 10 games less than you this coming season.
Mkhitaryan is total class and for me a more exciting signing than even Pogba would be. However where is Mourinho going to play him ? He's actually played more games at AM that all other positions together (in the BL). So I'd go :
Rashford ------ Mkhitaryan --------- Martial (with Ibra @ CF and Rooney backup). Though I don't think Mourinho trusts youth enough to go there.
Bailly I know nothing of - though he has started well and is surely an upgrade on Jones. Mane, or someone of his ilk (a very pacey goal scoring winger/forward) would have been a good signing for you as your winger pool is wide but relatively weak. Pace is also not exceptional though Martial and Rashford look rapid ( I say that because I don't think Mourinho will play both and then your more senior options are not as good). I still think you are missing a strong DM (Schneiderlin isn't a DM and has not played even close to his Southampton form, he may never with United's tactics and formation). So much depends on what formation Mourinho decides to go with for most matches.
For Liverpool you simply have to look at who they can attract and how much they would be willing to pay, with a new stand being built and no Euro football. United fans on here seem to think we should be signing players that this Summer are going to far better placed teams. For example teams such as Juve, Atletico Madrid and BVB are easily far more attractive due to virtually guaranteed CL participation. So most players we buy will not be from teams of their stature but from teams not participating in the CL or in far lower profile leagues.
Once that is acknowledged then even if I was a United fan I would have to admit that the players we have bought are upgrades on those they are replacing. It may not be 2 steps up but certainly, considering the position of the club, an upgrade.
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Was hoping the Wijnaldum signing wouldn't go through, just like I hoped the Mané one wouldn't.
We'll see, hopefully I'm wrong but not expecting a lot from them.
We'll see, hopefully I'm wrong but not expecting a lot from them.
& if that player exists then he'd be wanted by the likes of United, City, Chelsea, et al. Perhaps we'll make a last minute bid for Pogba. Who knows ?
I know their transfers seem underwhelming but I have a funny feeling they'll do well this year.
25 years old, played all games in his first EPL-season, 10 goals from open play as a midfielder. Seems a pretty good deal to me.
Their biggest signings are 20, 22, 24, 25 and 25 years old. Milner is their oldest player at age 30. Klopp now has a team full of players entering their physical prime and suited to his style. I still think they are a true quality defender short and Moreno remains suspect, but you can see his squad taking shape.
You were linked quite heavily with Gotze weren't you? You could have chucked a lot of money at someone like him.(just as an example)
@Rafateria
Thank you for the considered reply. I guess that I tend to still think that Liverpool should have the same ambitions as United so find your business very underwhelming.
I think that Mane and Wijnaldum are at the higher end of mid table players and won't really advance Liverpool. If I was a Liverpool fan I would be concerned about the prospect of being cut further and further adrift of the top teams.
That said, Leicester showed last season that the improbable can happen. I wouldn't bet my own money on it though.
Thank you for the considered reply. I guess that I tend to still think that Liverpool should have the same ambitions as United so find your business very underwhelming.
I think that Mane and Wijnaldum are at the higher end of mid table players and won't really advance Liverpool. If I was a Liverpool fan I would be concerned about the prospect of being cut further and further adrift of the top teams.
That said, Leicester showed last season that the improbable can happen. I wouldn't bet my own money on it though.
Think selling Joe Allen for 13m is a mistake.
Granted he shouldn't be a starter for them, but he's a not bad squad member at all. He's better than Henderson.
If its for part of the 2 in a 4231 that Wijnaldum is being bought for, Allen is a better player than him in that position.
Granted he shouldn't be a starter for them, but he's a not bad squad member at all. He's better than Henderson.
If its for part of the 2 in a 4231 that Wijnaldum is being bought for, Allen is a better player than him in that position.
I think thats a mistake you do in general since years, and with Mourinho the strange squydbuilding wont change. This whole "we buy 1 or 2 or 3 starplayers who shined last season to get back on top" thing without longterm plans how to solve deeper problems and to find again a way of "being United/the United way" will hold you back just like the last years. But thats another story.
Klopp has demonstated that he is able to compose a squad which is totaly aware of the system he wants to play. He also had the experience to develope it in a way where they get better and better and at a point are also able to handle a lot of tournaments with a kind of squad deepness. He just said that without a winterbreak he has to learn but i can see that he might will handle this well. Just want to say: If Liverpool got a scouting system half as good as this from the BVB, and they get developable players with the right character (something important for a Klopp-team to work) they will improve, and improve more, not only doing one good season or so. But this is also depending on how the league reacts to that Pressing-Counterpressing Defending upwards Kloppsystem. A danger i see in the point above: The more Klopp and Buvac tranfers werent the greatest at Dortmund. I Liverpool isnt able to see and to get interesting developable players, it will stuck at a level. Liverpool would improve cause of the system,but never do step after step more to the top. Klopp is an argument for players, but no international football not. And if they dont get an international spot this season, it will be difficult for them.
For their transfers so far, i would sas they were decent. Karius was a great Buli-player and is still young (23). Matip was one of the best CB despite being in a shit team since years who got clowns as coaches for years and is young (24). They got both for a steal, even for a Buli-team it woiuld be a great deal, especially Matip. Klavan seems to be an cheap backup with strenght in headballs to save and get the long and second balls. But more a backup. They got more time, tranferwindow is still open.
Its interesting, cause the team is individually weaker as these ones Klopp got the last years at Dortmund. Its more like Klopp beamed back in time at the begining years at Dortmund, but with a totaly different situation in terms of money.
I would be ecstatic if Liverpool had brought in the players United have - but we can't spend £100m on one player (especially one we let go for nothing).
United are throwing a fortune on players, just like you did last season, in the hope of success which you may well get - we have thrown money down the toilet in the past on average signings but do not have the same spending power, we are in a different market.
Karius, Mane, Matip, and Wijnaldum will improve our first 11, exactly how much it remains to be seen - we haven't started the season yet.
Klopp has a lot of baggage to remove from the squad and that is still in progress. We can only put our trust in him.
We just want him to sign a good left back, that alone would be a good window!
I find it hard to understand Liverpool's transfer dealings tbh - they seem to be signing players in positions they do not really need much strengthening in - or at least they seem to be neglecting the problems in the squad last season. If I was a Liverpool fan i'd be very concerned.
Really? I would say that is exactly what Klopp is doing.
Mignoiet isn't good enough - we sign a new keeper
Lack a commanding centre half - we sign a new one
Lack pace up front, especially from the flanks - we sign someone that has that
Lack a goal scoring midfielder - we are about to sign one
Probably lack a dominant central midfielder - want Dahoud not sure if we will get him
Left back granted, but expect that to be addressed soon
I would say Klopp got a lot work to do, so i wouldnt wonder if he changes more than the half of the squad over the years. He did it at Dortmund, where very well known players were removed and replaced by others, and in the end everybody could see that it has positive effects and the system is gonna take shape.
Sorry but that doesn't make sense at all.
Look at our weaknesses from last season : GK, CB, LB, DM, Wing, lack of pace, lack of goals from midfield. Now look at the players we have bought and most people of considered opinion would say we have already improved upon GK, CB, Wing, lack of pace and lack of goals from midfield. As for DM - well Klopp doesn't use one per se but a more defensive midfielder would be good, though he wouldn't be a regular starter (an improved version of Lucas if you like), the blindingly obvious position still needing to be addressed is a major upgrade on LB. If we sign Medel (or someone of his ilk) to replace Lucas in the squad and maybe Hector (or any LB of his stature) to replace Moreno then I'll be well satisfied with the Summer (assuming Balotelli & Benteke are off the books). Failing that I'd be much happier with Gomez at LB once he's fully recovered from his achilles injury.
Damn you were fast - it looks like I just re-wrote your post !