Liverpool 2016/17 - Performance and chat thread.
- Thread starter Parry Gallister
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Liverpool Football Club don't buy stars, they make them
http://m.southwales-eveningpost.co....et-joe-allen/story-29521812-detail/story.html
You wanting xavi off us?
You wanting xavi off us?
Why are they signing Klavan? Stupid, unnecessary signing. Typical Liverpool.
Judging by the signings I guess Klopp still has full faith that he can create greats from dross. Cold hard reality coming this season I fear.
I just don't think Liverpool can compete in the market the same. They can't pay the same wages or fee's as others. They can't offer any European football or give a guarantee of it in the future. Except for the season they came second, they are finishing nearly midtable. They can bang on about history but it's even a while since they won the league cup, never mind something good.
Klopp can only offer so much. He's a really good manager and I can see him building a good side, it's going to take a while. I wouldn't be surprised to see him get a gem or two this window, an unknown that develops into a quality player. It's going to take him another two window's to get them properly competing for trophies. You can't keep buying Southampton players every year, then wonder why you don't win the league. The truth is Liverpool need an overhaul of the squad. Except for Coutihno, Sturridge, Mane and maybe Firminio what do you they really have? In my opinion a really average team, painfully average. The manager got the maximum from them players, he done well last year. I imagine there aim this year is to get fourth and a good cup run. Team's will know Klopps pressing style of football this year, be interesting to see how they get on.
The problem is that unearthing unknown quality talents has become far more difficult in the last five years or so as the scouting networks have become a lot better as when he built the foundation of his last great team.
When it comes to international talent I believe that we were actually a bit of a thorn in his sides. It was kinda like a running joke in our support as Liverpool was linked with several talents we ended up signing (Mor, Dembele, Guerreiro). Either the media was simply lazy (which is entirely possible) or we really has a lot of targets in common. In the end we beat them for all targets mostly because we could offer CL football (both now and a higher chance in the future) IMO and because we scouted them longer. It certainly did not help them that we went the route of talent development that heavily in his first major transfer window.
What really surprises me is that you hear so little about Klopp and Liverpool in terms of the German transfer market, though. He is still really popular and highly regarded over here and I thought they would use his reputation as pull for Bundesliga talent.
Maybe the reason for that is really simple. Klopp is great in talent development and motivation, but that does not mean he is great in finding the talents. The scouting department at Dortmund was not managed by Klopp or the coach in general, but is led by our DoF Zorc. A great coach does not necessarily make a good manager. Would at least explain why the majority of their targets are really not that impressive or were only followed late.
It could also still be the "transfer committee" signing these players. If that's he case, Liverpool are in trouble.
I'm really not sure what you, @Red Bug and @KomodoBadger don't get about this signing. We already have our CBs set for the season (Matip, Lovren, Sakho and Gomez and maybe even Ilori too if required, the last two of whom fall into the young and hungry bracket) which is more than enough youngsters with Brewitt in the U21s as well.
However we now have injuries to Sakho and Gomez, Ilori is off to the Olympics and Matip is carrying an injury. It makes perfect sense to sign someone who it seems Klopp knows and who is going to be happy to sit in the stands and just be used as emergency cover when the others are back to full fitness. There's not a lot not to understand about this transfer.
I think that's it.
Dross ? Because they don't come with a superstar name and transfer fee ? Did you say that about Kante, Drinkwater, Vardy, Payet etc. etc. last season ? Karius was voted the #2 keeper in the BL last year by his peers, Matip a young and highly rated CB, would surely cost a lot but for the fact he ran his contract down and Mane, a young highly rated winger/forward ? Dross ? If you say so
I think that's a pretty good assessment of where we are at. Except you under-rate some of the players and to say we got the maximum out of the players last season is probably not even close to the truth since Klopp's tactics are only just starting to show dividends (see the graph below - and note the improvement over the course of the season, the dip at the end coming when we switched focus to the EL and played a lot of squad / U21 players in the 1st XI - with a squad that didn't contain a single player that he brought into the club).
I'd also say that Karius, Matip, Grujic (who looks great from early viewing) and Mane are substantial upgrades .. with hopefully a new LB and CM to come but we'll see.
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Was it Klopp or Zorc/Watzke that made decisions on signing players in Dortmund?
I'm not sure why you would say "not that impressive" in the same post as 'unearthing unknown quality talents' as that is of course a contradiction in terms ! If they are unknown to the vast majority of people (especially the Football Manager muppets who only believe in superstars and massive transfer fees) then naturally they won't be deemed as impressive !
Of course you are right about Zorc's influence .. but he didn't do it on his own and I'm sure Klopp and Buvac will be leveraging some of the same network of contacts at clubs around Europe that Zorc did.
The final call was a group decision amongst the three of them. Every party had the chance to veto. As far as I know there are two cases which became public of that happening. The first one was the wish of Zorc and Watzke to replace Lewandowski with Mario Mandzukic, which was vetoed by Klopp as he was not a fan of the Croatians personality. The other one was Zorc vetoing Klopp´s plan to sell Aubameyang after his first less than ideal year with us.
Normally, the process of recruting at Dortmund worked along these lines:
1. Klopp expressed to Zorc wishes of certain player types and profiles which he liked to implement in the following season
2. Zorc gave out the profiles to the scouts and eventually compiled a list of potential candidates which was given to Watzke
3. Watzke checked the list from the financial aspect and narrowed it down to the realistic options.
4. Klopp and his co coaches viewed material themselves (sometimes visited live games).
5. The three came together the first time and see if there was consent between them. First chance to veto by either party.
6. Watzke/Zorc or other officials approached players and agents if there was interest in joining Dortmund and the clubs under what circumstances they were willing to sell.
7. Klopp talked with the players themselves, assessed their personality/motivation and sometimes tried to persuade them to join.
8. The chosen candidate was discussed a second time between the three of them with the second chance to veto.
9. Personal terms of the players were finalised by Zorc and neogtiations with the clubs were held by either Zorc or Watzke (mostly the former).
That is of course the regular case. There were also cases where players were directly suggested by Klopp. Neven Subotic and Ciro Immobile for example were such cases.
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It's already been ascertained that we don't/can't compete at the level of United, Chelsea, City, & not to mention the big money clubs from abroad. So LFC, & Klopp, have to cut their cloth accordingly. But let me remind you of something. Since winning the title in 2013, Manchester United have spent well in excess of a quarter of a billion pounds on players. Yet despite this, the only 2 I'd have at Anfield is Martial & Shaw. Let's not forget this is squad full of title winners, who in all fairness, were backed to the hilt in the transfer market. & yet from being champions, have gone from 1st to 7th, 4th, & 5th in successive seasons. Not to mention of course, that for all the dismissive rhetoric aimed at Liverpool's squad, Manchester United only finished a meagre 6 points ahead of us last season. So my point is, Manchester United's fall from grace was not really down to players signed & not signed, it had more to do with finding the right man to shape the players he had at his disposal. So therefore, using the same logic, Liverpool's future won't be determined so much on who we buy, it'll be totally dependent on how well our manager moulds them into the framework of the team.
I know you have just probably forgotten De Gea but Rashford, Smalling, Blind, Herrera, Mata, Schneiderlin, Ibrahimovic would all be your best players on their positions, you are just making a point and using such a biased opinion to back it up.
Making the same mistakes over and over again. Signing dross then wondering why they finish 8th
Rashford isnt better than sturridge right now, not sure mata is an upgrade over firmino either.
To be fair, I think he means the only two we have transfered since 2013, so you can't count De Gea, Smalling or Rashford, while Blind, Herrera, Mata and Schneiderlin have hardly set the world alight so you could forgive him for having his own opinion on them. I think they're probably four players we over rate with United bias and combined with his likely bias of their Liverpool counterparts (Henderson, Sakho, Coutinho and Milner) you can forgive him for using his prerogative.
There's no question we now have a much better squad than them on paper though and Mourinho will unlock it.
Liverpool fans bleat on about how good Klopp is but he's no better than Mourinho, Guardiola, Conte, Wenger and Poch is no mug and they all have better squads and more money than him.
Oh i think you are right, i misunderstood that one @redman5
In a nutshell, yes.
Thanks. Decision making at Liverpool can't be too different.
Out of all those managers though Klopp is the standout candidate to make an average squad win the league despite overwhelming odds against said money and squads.
Mourinho and Pep can't hold a candle to that record and bringing in third placed Poch in a two horse race is just insulting.
And never let it be forgotten: Mourinho with all his Chelsea wealth Finished Behind Rodgers. Yes let that sink in. Suarez or no Suarez. Mourinho holds the record of Finishing Behind Rodgers. So good it had to be said twice.
Wijnaldum is only slightly less shit than Sissoko. Let's hope Ashley rinses these cnuts for the two of them.
Out of all those managers though Klopp is the standout candidate to make an average squad win the league despite overwhelming odds against said money and squads.
Mourinho and Pep can't hold a candle to that record and bringing in third placed Poch in a two horse race is just insulting.
And never let it be forgotten: Mourinho with all his Chelsea wealth Finished Behind Rodgers. Yes let that sink in. Suarez or no Suarez. Mourinho holds the record of Finishing Behind Rodgers. So good it had to be said twice.
He also lead a team that stopped you winning the league...
Their transfer business has been mediocre IMO. Top four won't happen unless Sturridge can stay fit and hit top form and/or Coutinho becomes one of the best three players in the league. They just don't have enough quality in comparison to us, Chelsea, Arsenal, City and Spurs.
I don't see why they will finish in the top six. Not much different from last season.
Dross ? Because they don't come with a superstar name and transfer fee ? Did you say that about Kante, Drinkwater, Vardy, Payet etc. etc. last season ? Karius was voted the #2 keeper in the BL last year by his peers, Matip a young and highly rated CB, would surely cost a lot but for the fact he ran his contract down and Mane, a young highly rated winger/forward ? Dross ? If you say so
You could sound less dramatic, that's certain. Mane I left out of my post and that was an error as he's obviously a good player. The rest? Meh, Liverpool's signings have been wank in recent years - it doesn't seem to matter what money is spent on the player, they aren't up to scratch come the end. That's my opinion and you can disagree with it for sure without sounding mental.
I believe Klopp is talented and I wanted him at United if it could be done (although personally I always fancied either Pep or Mourinho) but I don't think he's so special to turn any old player into a good/great one. My general point is, he could do with some proper quality coming in, instead of all these so-called rough diamonds.
Your team is average as hell, good luck with that.
Top six seems about right. Wijnaldum sounds underwhelming though.
Georginio Wijnaldum 
Deary me...
Deary me...
How deluded can a fan club get.
It's klopp so let's give him what he wants. If he wants to sign bargains I trust his judgement because he is klopp!
This right here lies the biggest problem about liverpool management and their fans. Why do they think they are going to just win something they have never won before? In this day and age Liverpool should be lucky to even come 4th. Right now they are sitting at the table of tottenham and southampton. They need to realize that although they have a good history they just aren't one of the big boys anymore. The moment they can realize this is the moment they can build up a team in the next five years that will challenge and almost win it only to lose on the last day to United who will be back to back champions.
It will be so hard for them mentally when their messiah klopp can't even finish top 3 the next 3 seasons.
Don't understand why they'd want Wijnaldum.
Where would he even play.
Surely they have other priorities?
Where would he even play.
Surely they have other priorities?
Wijnaldum is a decent player. But he won't get them into top 4.
Klopp is no Sir Alex, taking average players to league titles. Its cute Liverpool fans think differently, though.
Klopp is no Sir Alex, taking average players to league titles. Its cute Liverpool fans think differently, though.
Revisionism is strong in that one.
Wasn't our last title winning side labeled as average?
Anyway I was hoping Liverpool would be able to do something better this window with Klopp. Still Mane is a good signing and there is still time.
I thought every year we were the worst United side in living memory? RAWK thought so, anyway.
Surely Liverpool fans are feeling a bit underwhelmed with these signings so far? Thought one of the big reasons for hiring Klopp was to help with attracting big name players.