Yeah that's true - in 8 games, it was 4 wins each (one of Dortmunds was on pens). Klopp has a decent record against top managers - if we can be more consistent against lesser teams we will do well.
Liverpool 2016/17 - Performance and chat thread.
- Thread starter Parry Gallister
- Start date
Pep has always faced Klopp's presses with Buquests, Iniesta and Xavi. No wonder you aren't worried. Is there reaaally that much difference between Iniesta/Xavi and Delph/Fernando?
Don't think Pep has ever faced Klopp's pressing with Busquets, Iniesta, or Xavi to be honestPep has always faced Klopp's presses with Buquests, Iniesta and Xavi. No wonder you aren't worried. Is there reaaally that much difference between Iniesta/Xavi and Delph/Fernando?
What went wrong today?
I didn't see a minute of this but I'd assume that the fact they played their last game less than 20 hours before the kickoff of this one somewhat compromised both lineup and performance lol.
So they've never met in the CL?
Fair enough, replace those three players with whichever midfielders treble winning Heynckes endowed upon Pep.Lack of energy after playing less than 24hrs earlier and a 2am flight to Mainz probably didn't help. Either way, I didn't get excited after yesterday's win against Barca (as nice as it was) so I'm not going to get too despondent over a loss today.
Real work starts next week
Milner and Sturridge are major doubts for the Arsenal game, meaning Klopp's plan using Milner at LB is down the shitter already and we have to use Moreno. Just sign a full back ffs, it can't be that hard.
I swear Roy tried him as a right back for England once, and it was disastrous. Pretty sure the winger playing against him had a field day and he was replaced at half time.
So can't imagine he'd flourish as a LB, I know Moreno is dreadful and all but still.
Enjoy the Boom while it lasts.
Why was your schedule made out like this?
Cheers, yes there's no need to read anything into this loss but my god was it an awfully planned weekend for Liverpool. Whose idea was to have two games in two days
It will be interesting to see which Liverpool side turns up at the Emirates. The Arsenal team is looking good and they will give your defence a lot of problems as your attack will to their defence with all those injured players out.
This was a very different Liverpool team with Adam Lallana and Emre Can the only players retained from the XI which started at Wembley.
Nobody who played more than 45 minutes in the capital was on duty in Germany, but Klopp's belief that he could juggle his resources to ensure the Reds did themselves justice in both games proved misplaced.
On a baking hot afternoon in the state of Rhineland-Palatinate, Liverpool wilted. Even those who only played a minor part against Barcelona looked horribly leggy.
Preparations were hardly ideal with it being past midnight by the time they checked into the city's Favorite Parkhotel on Saturday night after a late flight from London.
That said I'm reading nothing into this game and loads into the game against Barcelona.
So they've never met in the CL?
Nope, Kloppmund never played Pepcelona AFAIK.
Obviously we faced off several times with Pep, most notably Pokal final 2014.
Interestingly, Pep surprised in the first league meeting with Klopp's Dortmund by playing Martinez as AM and hoofing high balls towards him lol, to bypass Klopp's pressing. Then later Götze and Thiago came on and killed BVB off.
Klopp was relatively, and outspokenly, impressed with Pep's tactics and subs as I recall.
Also I remember in the Pokal semi 2014/15 was probably the only game during Pep's tenure where I thought we were consciously sitting back and ceding possession (!).
During that season Kloppmund struggled hard with BuLi teams adapting to their way of playing (among other things), and struggled to be dangerous when having to make the game; and I think even Pep thought this too promising to not use it. We lost the gaame after penalties but we should have won it.
Generally speaking, Pep got the better of Klopp as he managed to finally bend the curve in the league too, after the CL final win with Jupp.
Before, we hadn't won against BVB in the league in I think 6 or more games. Pep won 3 of the 4 league games against Klopp.
So I don't think City need to worry any more about Liverpool's counterpressing than Liverpool will have to worry about City's counterpressing - after all don't forget Pep's teams do that too, and by end of December the City team should have somewhat implemented it.
Nah.. pre season is pre season, you can't be too hasty in terms of judging players during it but Moreno just won't cut it with us and I'm basing this off pre season and his past two seasons. I'm not being harsh on the lad either, he's been a calamity for us ever since his debut against City and I would rather have a very steady eddie like Milner at full back. Come to think off it, if it wasn't for Spurs being so dreadful a few seasons ago and letting Moreno walk through their defence in that very next game to allow him to score we probably would have gotten rid of him ages ago
Didn't this is what most teams started to do in Klopp's last year in the BL? Because I read an article from a BL expert (most likely Rafael Hogenstein) that year who was trying to explain what other factors contributed to Dortmund's poor season other than injuries to some players.
If I remember it right, he said Dortmund had their highest possession under Klopp that year and they looked quite clueless at times when they'd so much of possession. He mentioned BL teams started not to let Dortmund to press them in front of their own box which is one of the major sources of goals for Klopp's team.
It'll be interesting how teams approach Liverpool here in the PL and also unlike Germany, there is no winter break. So it won't be easy to play this high press game throughout the season.
Nah.. pre season is pre season, you can't be too hasty in terms of judging players during it but Moreno just won't cut it with us and I'm basing this off pre season and his past two seasons. I'm not being harsh on the lad either, he's been a calamity for us ever since his debut against City and I would rather have a very steady eddie like Milner at full back. Come to think off it, if it wasn't for Spurs being so dreadful a few seasons ago and letting Moreno walk through their defence in that very next game to allow him to score we probably would have gotten rid of him ages ago
I didn't see too much of Moreno last season, but I did see the Europa League final and my god was he atrocious.
Ergh, don't remind me. Back when we were an utter joke whenever we came up against a half decent side. Lost every big game 5-0, shredded by every through ball or pacy attacker. You in particular loved to destroy us, City too. Aguero basically had a guaranteed hattrick whenever he played us.
AVB had several tactical nightmares in the 13/14 season. I still remember our win at your place and how ridiculous your high line was.
We're stuck with Moreno for now. We'll see if another left back is brought in before the window shuts but I doubt it. We'll probably be playing fewer than 50 games this season when everyone's fit it'll lead to having too many players on decent wages not getting any game time. Hopefully when Joe Gomez is back from injury he'll get a run in the side.
I think Rafa or Bob has mentioned it already, it's all well and good playing to nullify Klopp. That just means you're not bringing your own A game. I'll be happy if 18 teams in the PL are just concerned about Klopp than dictate anything themselves. The BuLi might have meaningless teams with meaningless managers but I'm not sure some of the top 10 PL teams will allow their egos to be dented that way.
As for clueless in possession, do you think Miki, Reus, Gotze, Gundogan, Lewandowski, hadn't a fecking clue what to do with a ball and 10 men defences? These types of players were constantly ripped from his machine followed by more crippling injuries in his last season that would make Sturridge seem like a fit fellow.
I don't mind a bit of revisionism, we all do it. But let's have some boundaries eh?
Not sure where this revisionism comes from! It's not like I gave my own opinion. The only thing I added, 1) It'll be interesting to see how teams approach Liverpool here in the PL and 2) Unlike Germany, there is no winter break..... which is a fact!
The rest of my comment was as I mentioned from an article I read in 2015. And I'd not have mentioned it on here had I not seen this comment from a Bayern fan about Pep conceding possession against Dortmund. I found that interesting and it immediately reminded me of what I read some time back. I don't know whether it's true nor not because that season I watched very few Dortmund's game (because of their poor form) but I remember the person who wrote that piece (most likely Rafael Hogenstein, if I find I'll add the link) he used some numbers among other things to explain what went wrong. If my memory doesn't betray me he said, that season Dortmund had an avg possession of around 58% which was higher than their previous avg of around 52%.
As for being clueless in possession, do you think Mata, Martial, Rooney etc. are bunch of idiots? If not, then how did we end up as being not only the one of the least creative teams in the PL but also a team that had an avg 2 shots per game with no shots on target in the 1st half for more than 50% of the games, which was far worse than 17th placed Sunderland! That's because every manager has an idea about how the game should be played regardless of the personnel he's at his disposal. He can have the most intelligent player yet due the system he deploys could render that intelligence meaningless.
Also let me remind you, Mkhi did openly criticize Klopp's system for his struggle in 2014/15, check out his comments before your clash against Dortmund in the EL if you don't believe me. Lewandowski, Gotze weren't there and if my memory serves me right, both Reus and Gundogan missed a large chunk of games that particular season. To make it clear, the article and my comment was about the season 2014/15 in particular and I did mention that the author tried to explain the factors in addition to injuries.
As for the top 10 team and their egos, let's have a look at it;
1. Leicester - Won the title despite having one of the least possessions in the PL
2. Arsenal - A possession based team but in the last 2 years Wenger has shown he isn't averse to playing a defensive game against big clubs especially away from home
3. Spurs - Possession based team who likes to press too
4. City - Possession obsessed manager but if the Bayern fan's comment is true it could be a different ball game
5. United - A manager who cares nothing but the results. This is the guy who after recording the lowest possession stat at the Bridge in a decade (against us) gloated that everything went according to his plan!
6. Southampton - New manager but I watched 2 Nice games last season where they played with 3 at the back and were much more fluid than whenever we tried that system under LVG
7. West Ham - A manager who doesn't care much about possession
9. Stoke - Normally plays on the counter against bigger teams
10. Chelsea - A managers whose game is based on solid and compact defense. You played Chelsea recently so you should have an idea now.
11. Everton - Another pragmatic manager in the Jose mould.
So you've maximum 3 managers who are likely to play the game in a way that plays into Klopp's hands and there are questions marks over 2 of them. Anyway, we shall find it out soon.
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Everytime I read something like this I have to wonder how little people might think of the Bundesliga coaches. If they needed four full seasons tp adapt to a pressing intensive transtition style, they can´t be that stellar. Good thing fpr them is that this was not the case.
The only season Klopp really took the league off guard with his playing style was the league winning 2010/2011 season. After that clubs already started to play way more reactive vs. them. This was alongside the departure of key player Sahin the main reason why they struggled pretty heavily in the first season half of the 2011/2012 season, when they basically had to rely on a 19 year old mega talent to create things out of thin air. In the second season half they went on an extremely strong run and the momentum of it carried them even beyond the end of the season.
By the time the 2012/2013 season came along, 80% of the national opponents started out in a very defensive, reactive sometimes even destructive way. From this point on Klopp´s focus was not on the execution of his prefered system, but on finding tools to force said system onto the opposition ergo forcing them to become more active. The first thing he did to archive that was by starting out games with immense pressure to hit them before they became fully organized. They had an extremely good scoring record in the first 20 minutes that season and especially Reus functioned as door opener (nearly a dozen of his league goals were 1:0´s). Being down one goal early most teams had no other choice but to become more offensive minded vs. them and conceed the necessary space for Klopp´s counter attacking to work.
In the following season Klopp put a lot of emphasis on set pieces, which lead to them being the league´s most successful team in that regard by a good margin. And just like the season before these goals forced the opposition to become more open.
In his last season at Dortmund probably the biggest reason for the horrible first season half was that he did not find the tools to make his style viable. The set pieces did not work like they used to be, Reus was plagued with injuries and the Hummels-Lewandowski combination was gone. Even worse was that even when the opponent allowed Klopp to play his style, the execution of it was incredible lacklustre.
Just like at Dortmund, Klopp at Liverpool has to find the ways to make his playing system viable and effective. This will be his biggest task. The opponents will adapt and try to counter act his system and they will do so faster than many realize.
All this applies to Klopp as well though.
Very interesting comment!
Agreed - so it will probably be a case of who prioritises playing to their strengths over nullifying the opponents. Where games are played will dictate that to an extent - I can't see too many teams coming to Anfield and playing out from the back.
Klopp won 3 of the 4 cup games against Pep (albeit one was on pens). It could be argued that Peps wins were more important tho - in that they were part of title winning campaigns.
Its still a decent record against Pep - I bet not many managers have a better one.
There is so much wrong with that and if you don't realise it then the least of our problems is punctuation.
Not least the quality of your spelling - "They failed abymally to get into Europa League too".
If you are going to post absolute tripe, maybe switch on the spell-checker first.
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One of the posters on another forum said he took his lad to the training session yesterday and saw Lucas there with his wife and child. Heard Lucas saying they were definitely leaving and saying his goodbyes to the staff. Only the messenger.
Palace are back in for Benteke. Telegraph says £32m.
Palace are back in for Benteke. Telegraph says £32m.
Palace being financed by the most amazing deal of the season so far : Bolasie to Everton for up to £30 million agreed.
I hope Palace doesn't do you the favour and go for Bony instead. I reckon they could get him for a decent fee from City plus get them to pay some of his wages for a season or two.
I would have been happy with getting £25 million nevermind the full fee being returned to us on Benteke. Excellent if it does go through (if it is to be reinvested on some new signings obviously).I just want a left back. Hector is worth a punt for £20 million.
Nah.. pre season is pre season, you can't be too hasty in terms of judging players during it but Moreno just won't cut it with us and I'm basing this off pre season and his past two seasons. I'm not being harsh on the lad either, he's been a calamity for us ever since his debut against City and I would rather have a very steady eddie like Milner at full back. Come to think off it, if it wasn't for Spurs being so dreadful a few seasons ago and letting Moreno walk through their defence in that very next game to allow him to score we probably would have gotten rid of him ages ago
I remember that goal. It was almost a copy of Bale's goal in the Copa del Rey.
Start at 2:45.
I've been saying that for a while now. It's so blatantly obvious we need a quality LB, Moreno can't be trained so cut your losses and invest. Smith and Flanagan are gone. The problem is nevermind great teams like Sevilla even dross teams in the league like Watford et al target him and it works. If we manage to shift dead weight player's like Benteke and get over £25 million for him it simply needs to be spent on a Left back, if the club needs help coming up with targets It would be no problem for me Emailing them some potential targets other than Ben fecking Chilwell.
you don't need to convince me,
(((the attacking threat of Albie)))
(((the attacking threat of Albie)))
Klopp's Dortmund always were at their very best against Bayern, and that didn't change when Pep was our coach - so yes Klopp always gave us a match, and his record against Pep is not terrible at all.
But out of the 3 'cup' wins you're counting, 2 are the German Supercup which is essentially a preseason game (the equivalent of the community shield). We always lost that one under Pep and it has very little relevance (well to the loser anyway
)From the real cup games, Pep won one final against Klopp (2014), and lost one semifinal pretty harshly on penalties (2015) - memorable for the most idiotic slapstick penalty performance ever from us.
you're one these glass = half empty people, isn't it, basically?
Jurgen is going to be working with Alb almost non-stop this pre season on the pesky defensive aspects of playing at LB, I wonder if you can you actually imagine the intensity of what this work probably entails? (not that I can either btw, but y'know...) I definitely think it's worth giving the lad another year. We all know he's quick, competitive & has a jolly decent left foot.
#TrustKlopp
#PossiblyOverdoingThisNow
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you could start by posting a list here, let's see if it's as easy as you claim
Tbh now that I think of it there isn't an endless list of potential options for the club to go for. That I'll admit, I'd still like to think that we could at least submit a bid for Rodriguez and Hector from Wolfsburg and Koln respectively. I would love us to sign Ricardo Rodriguez specifically but we will see, he seems unlikely he'll move as of right now. Amavi from Villa would be another option, also Criscito from Zenit could be worth a look as well as Gaya from Valencia (unlikely). Amavi seems the most likely but I'll be happy with anyone. I just want an adequate player for the position, it's a shame Flanagan didn't come back well from his injury.
Hector's price tag is £20m; Rodriguez would cost even more. Feck that - it's only LB.
Let's hope Klopp can teach some defensive discipline to Moreno - he has all of the physical and technical attributes. He managed to do it with Piszczek?
Let's hope Klopp can teach some defensive discipline to Moreno - he has all of the physical and technical attributes. He managed to do it with Piszczek?
You are right. We still need cover though imo.