Liverpool 2016/17 - Performance and chat thread.

[tob]

The same things were all said about Lallana, Benteke, Lovren etc who came from lesser teams. Thing is it rarely ever works out like you just said, most of the time they will be overwhelmed by the pressure of playing for a bigger team.

Well, I'm not talking about Lallana, Benteke, Lovren or anyone else. I'm talking about Mané, and my thoughts on him. I get that you're saying "oh, I've heard this many times before", and I agree, that has been said about different players before. But I'm not one that generalise every player. I look at each player individually and base my thoughts on that, and my opinion on him is that he'll be a success under Klopp's guidance. I guess, what you want to say is that, you don't agree with me on this one?

Also "Coutinho's world class performances" when does that happen? He's not that great he's just massively overrated by Pool fans.

To me, Coutinho is up there with the likes of Ozil and James. He hasn't won or achieved anything, yet, because he's playing at Liverpool. But I still see him putting out world-class performances just like Ozil and James does from time to time.

 

[Parry Gallister]

I'm reasonably happy with our window overall; I definitely think we'll pose more of a threat going forward, particularly if Sturridge stays fit (yeah, I know), but I have to say I'm mystified by a couple of Klopp's decisions.

Left-back, for me, was one of the priority areas we needed to address given how little regard I have for Moreno but, not only do we seem to be starting the season with him as first choice, we've also loaned out Flanagan, depriving us of much-needed cover there.

Likewise, I would've love to have seen a no-nonsense central midfielder lining up alongside Can in a two - yet we went out and got Wijnaldum who, although he's played there, seems like a more natural attacking midfielder, the one area in which we were relatively well-stocked, especially when Mane came in. And, just to rub it in, we've sold wee Joe Allen at a bargain bucket price. Now, Joe might not have been the answer to our midfield issues, but he had quality as Brendan would say. Perhaps Klopp thinks Grujic will do a job there from the off. Hopefully he does, but it's a bit of an unnecessary gamble, IMO.

Hopefully he'll pull a couple more signings out of the bag, but I'm not overly hopeful, especially at LB given Milner's comments about being asked to fill in there.

Pretty fair assessment, has Wijnaldum been playing cm in pre-season then? Expected him to be further up the pitch.

 

[Roosney]

I think Klopp has made the right choice in going for the likes of Mane and Wijnaldum.

Mane is a proven PL player, with great contributions to the game. The desire when playing for a team like Southampton, who will only take you so far as the stage prior to the big stage, is to do well enough to be signed by a bigger club. Getting that move to a bigger club will boost up his motivation from the previous season, and he'll be a perfect player for Klopp to develop and form into a team player. I can see him being the Reus of Liverpool.

Wijnaldum was the one true shining glimpse of last seasons Newcastle. I think he had a great season considering how poorly the team played. His desire to run forward and scoring goals will be a great asset for this new Klopp-team.

Together with the further development of Origi and Coutinho's world-class performances, I see a great offensive side taking form at Liverpool. It wouldn't be surprising if Liverpool ends up back in the top four when the season ends.
If Klopp can manage to get the defence sorted, they might even be challenging for the title.

You're caught in the boom bust cycle my friend.

 

[Red Bug]

I hate the term 'proven Premier League player'.

Robbie Keane was a 'proven Premier League player' and look how that turned out for Liverpool.

If a player is good enough, he will make it anywhere.

 

[Truedevil]

Well, I'm not talking about Lallana, Benteke, Lovren or anyone else. I'm talking about Mané, and my thoughts on him. I get that you're saying "oh, I've heard this many times before", and I agree, that has been said about different players before. But I'm not one that generalise every player. I look at each player individually and base my thoughts on that, and my opinion on him is that he'll be a success under Klopp's guidance. I guess, what you want to say is that, you don't agree with me on this one?



To me, Coutinho is up there with the likes of Ozil and James. He hasn't won or achieved anything, yet, because he's playing at Liverpool. But I still see him putting out world-class performances just like Ozil and James does from time to time.

Fair enough on Mané, when i look at him i see an inconsistent decent player who's (in my eyes) more likely to turn out to be another Lallana than a "Reus of Liverpool". It's your opinion though and only time will tell who was right.

And i'm sorry but saying Coutinho is up there with Özil is just mental. He might have the potential to get there one day but Özil has achieved so much more (invidually too) that he is just on another planet to Coutinho. Could argue about James but in my eyes he's also easily the better player, not being able to break into Real's starting 11 is not equal to him being a bad player. If Liverpool signed him he would be their best player.

Also may i ask who do you support?

 

[Roosney]

Well, I'm not talking about Lallana, Benteke, Lovren or anyone else. I'm talking about Mané, and my thoughts on him. I get that you're saying "oh, I've heard this many times before", and I agree, that has been said about different players before. But I'm not one that generalise every player. I look at each player individually and base my thoughts on that, and my opinion on him is that he'll be a success under Klopp's guidance. I guess, what you want to say is that, you don't agree with me on this one?



To me, Coutinho is up there with the likes of Ozil and James. He hasn't won or achieved anything, yet, because he's playing at Liverpool. But I still see him putting out world-class performances just like Ozil and James does from time to time.

Coutinho and Mane can be good players but I think they are the type of players that disappear during the cold rainy winter or a rough patch.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Coutinho and Mane can be good players but I think they are the type of players that disappear during the cold rainy winter or a rough patch.

Haven't seen enough of Mané but disagree on Coutinho. He's inconsistent, but he's not a fair weather player - if we're in a rough patch during a game he doesn't hide, he keeps fighting.

 

[ObelOitment Fungentula]

Pretty fair assessment, has Wijnaldum been playing cm in pre-season then? Expected him to be further up the pitch.

Last night was his debut and I haven't seen it yet, although I understand he played in CM. I was referring to the fact he played there a few times under Rafa at the end of last season and apparently at times for PSV and Holland. Presumably this is where Klopp sees his role here (perhaps in a midfield 3, not 2 - which would give him more freedom to push forward where we know he can do damage). It would at least make more sense than seeing him as another AM, although I'm not convinced yet.

 

[tob]

Fair enough on Mané, when i look at him i see an inconsistent decent player who's (in my eyes) more likely to turn out to be another Lallana than a "Reus of Liverpool". It's your opinion though and only time will tell who was right.

Yes, fair enough.

And i'm sorry but saying Coutinho is up there with Özil is just mental. He might have the potential to get there one day but Özil has achieved so much more (invidually too) that he is just on another planet to Coutinho. Could argue about James but in my eyes he's also easily the better player, not being able to break into Real's starting 11 is not equal to him being a bad player. If Liverpool signed him he would be their best player.

Last season, I felt like Coutinho went from potential to actually showing us and preforming what his talent has shown. He held Liverpool on his back at some point, and saved them in a couple of games.

Yes, Özil is the better player. If it were a decision on who to have in your team between Coutinho or Özil, Özil would get picked by most (I say most because Liverpool-fans and some Brazilians would pick Coutinho). If you look at James, who has actually won an individual trophy in a World Cup (and should also have won the best player), he is, very much as you say, the better player.

But what I'm saying, or trying to say, is that Coutinho puts out performances, very good performances that stands out, winning his team games. Just like Özil can do, or James did at the World Cup. I'm not saying he's better than anyone of them. But, performance-wise, in having a significant meaning to your team, I find him to be up there with the likes of Özil and James.

I could give you an another example.
Mahrez had world-class performances last season, as Sanchez had for Arsenal in his first season or Hazard in their winning season. And most would have both Sanchez and Hazard as the better players. Still doesn't change the fact that Mahrez had some great, top-class, game-winning, matches last season. I.e. "world-class performances" as one would say.

Also may i ask who do you support?

Well, I support United. It's not quite clear in my username, like yours, but if you look at my previous posts, you'd know.

 

[baanke laal]

I could give you an another example.
Mahrez had world-class performances last season, as Sanchez had for Arsenal in his first season or Hazard in their winning season. And most would have both Sanchez and Hazard as the better players. Still doesn't change the fact that Mahrez had some great, top-class, game-winning, matches last season. I.e. "world-class performances" as one would say.

Coutinho has never achieved anything remotely close to what Mahrez did last season (on a consistent basis throughout the season). So, bringing up Mahrez in a discussion about Coutinho & Ozil is a bit pointless.

 

[redman5]

I hate the term 'proven Premier League player'.

Robbie Keane was a 'proven Premier League player' and look how that turned out for Liverpool.

If a player is good enough, he will make it anywhere.

Torres was a good player until he joined Chelsea. But on the whole I do agree with your point. I think the manager plays an important part though. There's lots of quality players that have gone for big money (not just to Liverpool) & they've failed to make the grade. The better managers tend to get the best out of their new signings. We'll just have to wait & see how things pan out over the season re Herr Klopp's new guys.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

I hate the term 'proven Premier League player'.

Robbie Keane was a 'proven Premier League player' and look how that turned out for Liverpool.

If a player is good enough, he will make it anywhere.

I disagree i defiantly think their is something to be said for a player who has proven they can deliver in this league, it isn't just about been good enough, its about your style fitting with a pysical nature and speed of the primer league, not to mention the shear amount of games.

i also don't think you can blame Robbie Keane for his failure at liverpool, i remember pissing myself at his introduction as liverpool player where benitez said he could play on the left wing, after that it was obvious he was doomed.

 

[Adisa]

I disagree i defiantly think their is something to be said for a player who has proven they can deliver in this league, it isn't just about been good enough, its about your style fitting with a pysical nature and speed of the primer league, not to mention the shear amount of games.

i also don't think you can blame Robbie Keane for his failure at liverpool, i remember pissing myself at his introduction as liverpool player where benitez said he could play on the left wing, after that it was obvious he was doomed.

I think the emphasis on "premier league" proven is getting too much. As if the league is some gold standard.

 

[BlueCelery]

Coutinho is so laughably overrated by Liverpool players it hurts. Comparing him with World Class players like Ozil is a complete & utter joke. The gap between those two when it comes to intelligence, creativity & technique is insurmountable.

 

[LFC-Fans]

Coutinho is so laughably overrated by Liverpool players it hurts. Comparing him with World Class players like Ozil is a complete & utter joke. The gap between those two when it comes to intelligence, creativity & technique is insurmountable.

I wouldn't go that far as to say it is insurmountable... But I do agree Özil is definitely better.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Coutinho is so laughably overrated by Liverpool players it hurts. Comparing him with World Class players like Ozil is a complete & utter joke. The gap between those two when it comes to intelligence, creativity & technique is insurmountable.

It was a United fan who compared them.

 

[Tommy]

That's a bold prediction Tommy, really putting your neck on the line here.

4th-7th then! But I really wouldn't be surprised with anything in the top half of the table. Klopp needs to work miracles or get in a LB/DM. If we keep key players fit & consistent, top four is on. If we don't, we might miss the Europa League again.

As long as we're enjoyable to watch, I'll be happy. I know that sounds like such a half-arsed way of supporting a club, but I'd rather follow a good Liverpool team that's fun to watch than a great Liverpool team that plays like garbage... I mean, if we were terrible to watch, why not just check the scores instead of watching?

Just my opinion, anyway.

 

[Finn MacCool]

Coutinho has bags of talent - he lacks consistency. Maybe that is a sign that he won't quite ever be a great player - time will tell.

He is playing in a team which for two seasons has been just above average - a lot of the time he has ended up shooting from distance because he has had no options ahead of him. His shooting improved in the last couple of seasons but not enough to justify the number of times he has a pop from distance. With players like Mane, Wijnaldum and a fit Sturridge perhaps there will be less of a burden on Coutinho and he will improve his consistency. Right now that is all he lacks.

 

[Finn MacCool]

On another note - Shey Ojo is def one to watch this season. Bit of a rough diamond but I think we might have found a good un - he might get loaned out this season, not sure how I feel about that tbh. We have no Europe so can kind of understand it.

 

[Red Bug]

Coutinho is so laughably overrated by Liverpool players it hurts. Comparing him with World Class players like Ozil is a complete & utter joke. The gap between those two when it comes to intelligence, creativity & technique is insurmountable.

Liverpool players are always hugely overrated by a lot of their fanbase it seems.

What on earth do they see in Jordan Henderson for example?

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Liverpool players are always hugely overrated by a lot of their fanbase it seems.

What on earth do they see in Jordan Henderson for example?

*cough* Ander Herrera *cough*.

Henderson was good before his injury. Very bad last season - hopefully he recovers with pre-season but it'll be tough.

And again, it was a Man Utd fan who compared Coutinho to Özil. I think he's great, but he's not at Özil's level.

 

[SwansonsTache]

According to RAWK they have had a better team than us consistently since around 2000 or so, every version of our teams have gotten progressively more shit, while their have improved to no end.

Foochen conspiracy la' that it doesn't show in the results. All due to old baconface and his cronies in the FA.

 

[Mal donaghy]

You don't think someone like Mane can come into our sqaud and be an improvement on certain attacking players we had/have like Lallana or Ibe? I don't know, it has been an odd transfer window for us in the sense that we have made decent signings but we haven't strengthened enough. I think realistically we can aim for a top 4 place but I think we will come short. But Klopp might do wonders with the squad in which case anything is possible. 1 game a week may help as well.

Not playing many games though, makes it hard to keep the whole squad happy

 

[Red Bug]

*cough* Ander Herrera *cough*.

Henderson was good before his injury. Very bad last season - hopefully he recovers with pre-season but it'll be tough.

And again, it was a Man Utd fan who compared Coutinho to Özil. I think he's great, but he's not at Özil's level.

Ander Herrera is bang average and hasn't shown anything in a Utd shirt. Who overrates him here?

Liverpool fans are infamous for overhyping their managers and players. Not saying that all clubs fans don't do it because they do. But Liverpool supporters are truly a special breed when it comes to their teams.

"This year is our year" wasn't just made up by some Utd fan or Evertonian. Pool fans are genuinely cringey as hell when it comes to the footy.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Ander Herrera is bang average and hasn't shown anything in a Utd shirt. Who overrates him here?

Liverpool fans are infamous for overhyping their managers and players. Not saying that all clubs fans don't do it because they do. But Liverpool supporters are truly a special breed when it comes to their teams.

"This year is our year" wasn't just made up by some Utd fan or Evertonian. Pool fans are genuinely cringey as hell when it comes to the footy.

No one anymore. Over the past few years on here, the lauding of Ander Herrera was absolutely insane.

It happens, Liverpool fans overrate our players but most football fans do.

 

[SwansonsTache]

No one anymore. Over the past few years on here, the lauding of Ander Herrera was absolutely insane.

It happens, Liverpool fans overrate our players but most football fans do.

Not to the level Liverpool fans do. How many attacking talents greater than Ronaldo have you had over the years?

Harry Kewell, Florent singa Pongo Pongo or what his name was, Le Tallec, Ryan tower of Babel etc.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Not to the level Liverpool fans do. How many attacking talents greater than Ronaldo have you had over the years?

Harry Kewell, Florent singa Pongo Pongo or what his name was, Le Tallec, Ryan tower of Babel etc.

Nick Powell, Ravel Morrison, Macheda, Memphis Depay...

 

[SwansonsTache]

Nick Powell, Ravel Morrison, Macheda, Memphis Depay...

Difference is that we largely compare these players with our own of the past, and when they fail we don't delude ourselves into believing they still are the dog bollocks. I can't remember any of us ever daring to compare these guys to players like Ronaldo though. Players like Memphis has already been written of by many of us after one season.

For ridiculous overrating of your current squad, look no further than Methamphadou Sakho or Emre Can. Welsh Xavi also comes to mind, and the worlds oldest young and promising talent, Lallana.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Difference is that we largely compare these players with our own of the past, and when they fail we don't delude ourselves into believing they still are the dog bollocks. I can't remember any of us ever daring to compare these guys to players like Ronaldo though. Players like Memphis has already been written of by many of us after one season.

For ridiculous overrating of your current squad, look no further than Methamphadou Sakho or Emre Can. Welsh Xavi also comes to mind, and the worlds oldest young and promising talent, Lallana.

Emre Can is gonna be a machine, just you watch.

In all seriousness though I'm not really arguing with the tag Liverpool fans get, just saying every club does it. R.e. writing off Depay after a season, same happens at Liverpool.

 

[Finn MacCool]

Ander Herrera is bang average and hasn't shown anything in a Utd shirt. Who overrates him here?

Liverpool fans are infamous for overhyping their managers and players. Not saying that all clubs fans don't do it because they do. But Liverpool supporters are truly a special breed when it comes to their teams.

"This year is our year" wasn't just made up by some Utd fan or Evertonian. Pool fans are genuinely cringey as hell when it comes to the footy.

I grew up around lots of utd fans in the late 70s and 80s - every year was their year - except it never was, in the same way as it has been for us for a long time now.

It's what fans who are used to success do - even a quarter of a century plus later.

And you guys would miss a golden wind up opportunity if we stopped dreaming about the league - so we're doing you a favour really

 

[baanke laal]

Liverpool players are always hugely overrated by a lot of their fanbase it seems.

What on earth do they see in Jordan Henderson for example?

Don't forget Sakho who is one of the best Center Backs in the league. Also, an injured Lucas used to be the best Defensive Midfielder in PL.

 

[tob]

Coutinho is so laughably overrated by Liverpool players it hurts. Comparing him with World Class players like Ozil is a complete & utter joke. The gap between those two when it comes to intelligence, creativity & technique is insurmountable.

It was a United fan who compared them.

First of all, what's the problem in comparing these two players? They play in the same position. Same league.
That one is better than the other one doesn't mean you can't compare them.

Second of all, all I said was that Coutinho is capable of showing world-class performances. He destroyed Chelsea at Stamford Bridge last season. After that game he got praised by Rio Ferdinand, calling him a "genius".

He's capable of having those world-class performances, that impact the outcome of the game, just as Özil, but Özil is more consistent and, in all, a better player.

The reason why I mentioned Özil, is because I think he's the best no.10 player in the Premier League. I could've gone for Silva, de Bruyne, Eriksen or Oscar, whom are all considered no.10's, but Özil is the one that has most impact in their respective team.

 

[Red Bug]

And don't forget. They. Have. Klopp. We. Are. Worried.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

Coutinho is so laughably overrated by Liverpool players it hurts. Comparing him with World Class players like Ozil is a complete & utter joke. The gap between those two when it comes to intelligence, creativity & technique is insurmountable.

Agreed. He's good but far too inconsistent. Firmino will end up being a better player for Liverpool imo.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Agreed. He's good but far too inconsistent. Firmino will end up being a better player for Liverpool imo.

Nah, Firmino has more end product but Coutinho is comfortably better.

 

[Rafateria]

Fair points.

I don't think most Liverpool fans overrate him, I would say they see him as I do - massively talented, yet also highly inconsistent. Now, whether that's down to his own failings or, as you suggest, an unfair burden being place on him is another debate.

Agreed. And of course the fact that he has not had the attacking outlets ahead of him for the past two seasons (though there were times last season with Firmino when it clicked). He needs pace ahead of him and now he's got it it could be an exciting season ahead, with so many attacking options it could take the pressure off him.

 

[montpelier]

Well it's ALL opinions innit? And I have seen a few on here - some mad folk do still believe in Depay, and Herrera has massive potential apparently. OTOH, I didn't give DDG any chance of still being in nets for Utd for too much longer during his first year ++ that he was in the team. Looked like a selection related to fee, hype & SAF just being bloody minded to me, until he suddenly gotten brilliant. You can't say anything is for sure in footy really. All guesswork innit basically, for us lot. Nothing is certain.

 

[Finn MacCool]

Well it's ALL opinions innit? And I have seen a few on here - some mad folk do still believe in Depay, and Herrera has massive potential apparently. OTOH, I didn't give DDG any chance of still being in nets for Utd for too much longer during his first year ++ that he was in the team. Looked like a selection related to fee, hype & SAF just being bloody minded to me, until he suddenly gotten brilliant. You can't say anything is for sure in footy really. All guesswork innit basically, for us lot. Nothing is certain.

 

[Rafateria]

And don't forget. They. Have. Klopp. We. Are. Worried.

You seem to have more posts in Liverpool-related threads than in United's. Maybe then that indeed says something about you and how 'not worried' you are.

 

[Red Bug]

You seem to have more posts in Liverpool-related threads than in United's. Maybe then that indeed says something about you and how 'not worried' you are.

1. Coming from a Liverpool supporter who has over 3,000 posts on a Manchester United supporters forum

2. I don't have more posts in the Liverpool-related threads than the Man Utd related ones. But nice try!