ETH will be available soon, so there you go.
Life after ETH — the next United manager
- Thread starter Red Star One
- Start date
No kidding.
Who will not happen: Klopp, Pep, Alonso, Zidane
Highly Doubtful: Howe, Emery, Nagelsmann, Hoeness, Inzaghi
Realistic: Tuchel, Amorim, Potter, de Zerbi, Frank, McKenna
I expect ETH to be sacked as a Christmas present to the united fans. RVN will come in as interim and plod along considering the squad we have. Then Tuchel in the summer.
I agree with you, but we all wanted Ten Hag before because he was exactly that - seemingly making Ajax big again.
Sporting Lisbon arguably has much less quality of players than Ajax did who are arguably a sleeping giant with one of the best youth systems of the world.
We were all happy signing Ten Hag -
Now who is the next candidates that will make us all happy?
The next Ten Hag up & coming managers are Xabi Alonso ; Ruben Amorim who have made their clubs big. Maybe Simeone fits this bracket but he is someone who looks very loyal to Athletico Madrid and is not really an up and coming manager.
Some managers who have already managed bigger clubs are managers like Zidane, Nagelsmann & Tuchel.
II think it's between those 5 who we get - with the short possibility we go for Mckenna or Carrick as our next British manager.
We'll finish 14th if that happens. At that point would Tuchel even come?
To be fair, while that is definite cause for concern, Sporting CP have been rather unfortunate from a “luck of the draw” perspective.
- In his second season, they faced eventual finalists Manchester City in the Champions League Round of 16.
- In his third season, they beat Arsenal in the Champions League Round of 16 but couldn't progress beyond Juventus in the subsequent round.
- In his fourth season, they were beaten by Atalanta (who made easy work of Alonso's Leverkusen in the final, btw) in the Europa League Round of 16.
Here are the Top 20 to 30 clubs in terms of revenues, according to Deloitte, for reference...
For the longest time, Jürgen Klopp's Borussia Dortmund also couldn't seem to get over the hump in Europe...
- 2008—09: eliminiated in the First Round of the UEFA Cup by Udinese.
- 2009—10: did not participate.
- 2010—11: eliminated in the Europa League group stage (this group contained Paris Saint-Germain and eventual champions Sevilla).
- 2011—12: finished dead last in their Champions League group.
To be fair, while that is definite cause for concern, Sporting CP have been rather unfortunate from a “luck of the draw” perspective.
They were the underdogs in practically all of those contests. It's a club that cannot keep up with the cream of the crop of Europe from a financial perspective, and that's oftentimes reflected on the pitch in continental competitions...
- In his second season, they faced eventual finalists Manchester City in the Champions League Round of 16.
- In his third season, they beat Arsenal in the Champions League Round of 16 but couldn't progress beyond Juventus in the subsequent round.
- In his fourth season, they were beaten by Atalanta (who made easy work of Alonso's Leverkusen in the final, btw) in the Europa League Round of 16.
Here are the Top 20 to 30 clubs in terms of revenues, according to Deloitte, for reference...
For the longest time, Jürgen Klopp's Borussia Dortmund also couldn't seem to get over the hump in Europe...
Then it all seemed to click and Klopp is now considered one of the finest Champions League managers of the modern period. Not saying that will happen with Amorim too, just that things can change quickly and dramatically in football, and at the very least he has time on his side as a 38 year old (as opposed to a 50+ year old who has been around the block, and you can be relatively sure that what you see is what you are going to get).
- 2008—09: eliminiated in the First Round of the UEFA Cup by Udinese.
- 2009—10: did not participate.
- 2010—11: eliminated in the Europa League group stage (this group contained Paris Saint-Germain and eventual champions Sevilla).
- 2011—12: finished dead last in their Champions League group.
Ruben Amorim is also by all accounts crazy charismatic. Like any time his name gets brought up on say, r/soccer, Sporting fans always go out of their way to mention what a great communicator and leader he is. So he would certainly be a good fit for people who complain that Ten Hag is too dour/uninspiring. He also seems to inspire real passion from Sporting fans in the stadium. You can kind of see why Liverpool thought he might be the perfect Klopp replacement.
Plus, the fact that he won Sporting's first title in almost 2 decades is unquestionably impressive. That he's since gone and won the league again (after two seasons where they finished 2nd and 3rd) and is currently top of the table again is further evidence of just how impressive his work with Sporting is. Plus, as you mentioned, he beat Arsenal over 2 legs in a Europa League tie. Also beat Mourinho's Tottenham 2-0 in the Champions League group stage in 21/22 but ultimately got knocked out in the round of 16 by City as you say. So, it's not like he's not clever enough to adjust his tactics for Premier League sides.
He genuinely broke a duopoly/hegemony in the way that Klopp did at Dortmund, or Simeone did at Atletico, or even Ferguson at Aberdeen. But I'd say that Sporting's financial disadvantage against Benfica/Porto is negligible compared to Dortmund vs Bayern or Atletico vs Barca/Real. And I would still have doubts over his tactical system against teams where we are expected to beat. I've never actually seen one of his sides play so I might be way off base here. But from people who have analyzed his tactics, the consensus seems to be that his teams are very aggressive on the ball, often pushing both wing backs all the way up and leaving a lot of space in the wide channels for teams to hit on the break - Sporting conceded the highest xG from counters in Portugal last season (though Sporting also had the best xGA in Portugal last season and have had for much of Amorim's tenure there). I think given our experience with Ten Hag (and to a lesser extent, Postcoglou at Spurs), I am wary of managers of dominant teams in top-heavy leagues outside the big 5. They tend to not have focus as much on defensive transitions most weeks because of talent advantages their teams have. Obviously, that's also true of Slot at Feyenoord and he seems to have adjusted fine to the Premier League, Liverpool don't look particularly exposed defensively. So maybe Amorim would also be clever enough to adjust but it is difficult to just look at the Goals For/Against numbers he's put up at Sporting to make judgements about his fit for us.
A more detailed look into his tactics here showing how his teams create advantages in buildup and the use of quick combinations in the centre to create chances in the final third. Also highlights the space his teams leave in behind the wing backs -
I would rather take a chance on someone who's shown potential in a top 5 league such as Hoeness (dream appointment) or Inzaghi (most likely to succeed, in my opinion). If not, take a chance on Mckenna or Iraola, both of whom seem like the real deal to me.
About Klopp: He didn't really break a hegemony. In the decade before his two league wins Bayern had "only" won 6 of 10 titles. Although it wasn't normal for them to lose two titles in a row (happened the last time 1995 and 1996 - Dortmund won two in a row those years and won the CL the following season), that has to be said. He returned Dortmund to former glory after they were close to bankruptcy and set a new points record, but after all Dortmund is a huge club and can't really be compared to something like Aberdeen or Atletico. Since the German reunification Dortmund has won the second most titles, that's true now and was true before Klopp already.
The total hegemony Bayern showed in recent years happened after Klopp/in response to Klopp's Dortmund.
I could see them going for him. If his fans are to be believed, he was top of their list (as well as Barcelona's and Bayern's).
I know about Dortmund's team in the 90s under Hitzfeld and the financial difficulties but Dortmund weren't in a position to be champions when he took over. Even with Bayern winning "only 6 out of 10" and the struggles in the mid 200s, especially the failure of the Klinsmann experiment, the other winners like Stuttgart or Wolfsburg weren't really able to establish themselves at the top or repeat that success in the way of Klopp. Dortmund are, financially and trophy-wise, the second biggest team in Germany but Klopp's reign really helped them put distance between them and the rest of the chasing pack in a way that other winners couldn't. Even if he beat Van Gaal's rather uninspiring Bayern to his first league title. He did, as you say, break the points record and also beat Heynckes' Bayern in the cup final 5-2 in the following season. His achievements are in that sense much more tangible than Amorim's.
Even Atleti are historically a big club, really. And the likes of Valencia and Deportivo did win La Liga in the early 2000s. Though I think Atleti were the first non-Classico champions since Valencia in 2004 so the duopoly was even more hegemonic than Bayern, as you say. Not really sure what point I'm trying to make except to say that Amorim's achievements at Sporting, while groundbreaking, don't really stack up to the likes of Simeone and Klopp in terms of beating the establishment.
Alonso
Nagelsmann
Tuchel
Amorim
Seem to be the favourites in CAF, in that order. Since the first 2 are probably unattainable, its down to Tuchel and Amorim, and I'm choosing Tuchel, over the new hipster favourite.
Nagelsmann
Tuchel
Amorim
Seem to be the favourites in CAF, in that order. Since the first 2 are probably unattainable, its down to Tuchel and Amorim, and I'm choosing Tuchel, over the new hipster favourite.
Klopp more or less restored the duopoly that existed in the mid/late 90s (from 1995 to 2002 Bayern won 4 titles, Dortmund 3 and only Kaiserslautern got another Bundesliga win 1998), which was a massive achievement. But as you say Dortmund had a generally better foundation than Stuttgart or Wolfsburg.
Yes, you are right about Atletico being a big club as well, of course.
Does there have to be a point?
I think it's interesting to discuss the nuances of what happened in different leagues, but maybe that's just me who likes this kind of discussion.
He'd probably go to City. What a mess.
To be fair, while that is definite cause for concern, Sporting CP have been rather unfortunate from a “luck of the draw” perspective.
They were the underdogs in practically all of those contests. It's a club that cannot keep up with the cream of the crop of Europe from a financial perspective, and that's oftentimes reflected on the pitch in continental competitions...
- In his second season, they faced eventual finalists Manchester City in the Champions League Round of 16.
- In his third season, they beat Arsenal in the Champions League Round of 16 but couldn't progress beyond Juventus in the subsequent round.
- In his fourth season, they were beaten by Atalanta (who made easy work of Alonso's Leverkusen in the final, btw) in the Europa League Round of 16.
Here are the Top 20 to 30 clubs in terms of revenues, according to Deloitte, for reference...
For the longest time, Jürgen Klopp's Borussia Dortmund also couldn't seem to get over the hump in Europe...
Then it all seemed to click and Klopp is now considered one of the finest Champions League managers of the modern period. Not saying that will happen with Amorim too, just that things can change quickly and dramatically in football, and at the very least he has plenty of time on his side as a 38 year old (as opposed to a 50+ year old who has been around the block, and you can be relatively sure, barring anomalies, that what you see is what you are going to get).
- 2008—09: eliminiated in the First Round of the UEFA Cup by Udinese.
- 2009—10: did not participate.
- 2010—11: eliminated in the Europa League group stage (this group contained Paris Saint-Germain and eventual champions Sevilla).
- 2011—12: finished dead last in their Champions League group.
I’m definitely being harsh but It’s on purpose. The kid/optimist in me would be all in for Amorim but the depressed cynic in doesn’t want to get burned again.
Overall I’m not seeing enough progression from him on the international stage to be convinced at the moment. Atalanta are a good team but to not manage to beat them once last year from four efforts makes me wonder. Perhaps there were mitigating circumstances there that I’m not aware of.
So far this year they’ve faced teams of a similar stature and beat a ten man Lille but struggled at PSV. I’ve come to expect a bit more, but that’s due much in fact to Amorim in fairness.
Klopp more or less restored the duopoly that existed in the mid/late 90s (from 1995 to 2002 Bayern won 4 titles, Dortmund 3 and only Kaiserslautern got another Bundesliga win 1998), which was a massive achievement. But as you say Dortmund had a generally better foundation than Stuttgart or Wolfsburg.
Yes, you are right about Atletico being a big club as well, of course.
Does there have to be a point?
I think it's interesting to discuss the nuances of what happened in different leagues, but maybe that's just me who likes this kind of discussion.
Yeah, given our current state, I'd much rather talk about what happened in different leagues than talk about what is going on at United
I was just saying that in the context of Amorim as the next United manager. I remember 3 years ago on the Caf, when we were discussing Pochettino vs Ten hag and this forum, and basically every United fan online, seemed to be rabidly pro-Ten Hag. I remember all the pundits and former players were pro-Poch and anytime one of them expressed this view on twitter, they got shouted down by this avalanche of pro-Ten Hag comments in the replies. Gary Neville even did a poll on his twitter and the results were Assad in Syria levels of one sided, which he seemed genuinely taken aback by. I even remember a story about the players apparently preferring Pochettino and the reaction (more on reddit than here) being something along the lines of 'these players are just lazy gits who don't want Ten Hag because he'll make them work hard'. Which even then seemed like a weird reaction. If there is one noticeable quality that Pochettino's Spurs team had was how physical and hard working they were. His teams' high pressing and aggression is what got him much of his early success in the Premier League. Once other teams caught up in terms of pressing, and coaches adjusted to the need of organized build-up patterns to play against a high press, his teams tailed off a bit. But we were all so pro-Ten Hag that we had no inclination to give any credibility to Poch.
Which is not to say that we would have been better off if we'd appointed Pochettino - we almost certainly would not have won the trophies we've won under Ten Hag given Pochettino's record. But many of the nuances people were offering about Ten Hag's record seem to have been valid. That he had such a massive financial advantage in the Eredivisie that his record needed to be contextualized. Yes, Ajax hadn't won the league in four years when he took over (and haven't won it in two years since he left) but it is still Ajax and all it needed was for them to use their considerable resources more effectively to turn that around. Even the Peter Bosz Ajax team we played in the Europa League final were already showing signs of them having their shit together - they already had De Ligt, Frenkie De Jong, Andre Onana, Hakim Ziyech, Schone and Davy Klassen who would go on to be major players for them under Ten Hag. If Peter Bosz hadn't been poached by Dortmund immediately after the final, he might have won the league with Ajax. And while he started the season great with Dortmund (was the record start at the time, I think?), his deficiencies in terms of defending transitions became pretty apparent pretty quickly. Even at Leverkusen, Bosz's football, which was electric going forward when it all clicked, seemed to have many of the same problems defensively as Ten Hag at United.
There was also the suggestion that Ten Hag's football at Ajax was really the consequence of Ajax's philosophy rather than something he'd imposed. And while he obviously coached it well, it was reasonable to question whether he'd be able to replicate it at United. This usually got the response that other Ajax managers like Frank De Boer had not been able to get the team to play with such verve. Which was true (I'll take Dutch posters word on this), but as noted, with a bit of time that might have been true of Peter Bosz. Bosz is currently showing the potential of his coaching methods at PSV, where he's been incredibly dominant. And Bosz would not be on anyone's list to be the next United manager now given his record in the top 5 leagues.
Ten Hag's record in Europe, rightly held up as evidence of his tactical acumen also had nuance in it which people pointed out at the time. The semi-final run was obviously brilliant - he beat Juventus and Real Madrid with Ajax. In the post above, @Invictus pointed out Amorim's financial disadvantage against the elites. Well, the same applies to Ten Hag. And he had achieved something even more eye catching. And then, in his final season, won 6 out of 6 in a group with Dortmund and Ruben Amorim's Sporting, absolutely smashing through the group. That group stage performance is really what made him a hot candidate for the United job because it showed that the semi-final run wasn't a fluke - with a couple of years to rebuild after the loss of De Ligt, Ziyech and De Jong, they were back to being one of the most exciting teams in Europe. But even then, in the intervening years, results were mixed. In 2019/20, they finished third in a group behind Frank Lampard's Chelsea and a Valencia team who finished 9th in La Liga. They impressed, beating Valencia 3-0 in Spain, and losing only 1-0 to Chelsea in Amsterdam. But the game against Chelsea in London, where they led 4-1 after 60 mins (again, super impressive) and blew that lead by the 75th minute to draw 4-4 was an early red flag about his teams' defensive frailty in Europe. This after blowing a 3-0 lead three halves into the tie against Spurs the previous season. And then, having gone down to the Europa League, they lost the round of 32 tie to Getafe (8th in La Liga, knocked out by Conte's Inter the next round). The season after, in 2020/21, they finished third behind Liverpool (who had a down year, and lost 7-2 to Villa two weeks before they faced Ajax) and Atalanta. They did impress against Liverpool and got praise from Klopp though. Going down into the Europa League, they beat Lille and Young Boys before losing to Paulo Fonseca's Roma, who Ole's United beat 6-2 at Old Trafford 2 weeks later (and 8-5 in the tie overall). Again, there's undoubtably impressive stuff there, but also clear points of concern about his teams in Europe, in terms of not beating sides they were probably better than.
I also remember some Ajax fans on here raising some questions about both his transfer record and his record with promoting academy players. On his transfers, that he is obsessed with signing players he's already worked with at past clubs and how these signing never work out. He was quite dependent on Overmars' acumen in the market to build the squad. On academy players, Ajax fans felt he was quite conservative about giving chances to academy players and only gave a shot if he felt they were better than the first teamers (De Jong, Timber, Gravenberch). Which I don't have a problem with, and Garnacho and Mainoo being promoted over 2 years is a perfectly respectable record. But, some United fans have raised questions about his handling of Amad and more recently, Alvaro Fernandez. And that seems very much in line with questions Ajax fans had raised.
All of which is to say that while I was among the masses proclaiming Ten Hag the messiah, and I do think that appointing him was the right decision given he has won 2 trophies (even if it looks like he's not good enough to re-establish United as a top club), there was a lot of nuance there for us to assess that people like me overlooked. And in keeping with the club's consistently poor decision making over the past 10 years, the club went with the people's choice instead of considering the nuance. Nuance which, when assessing Hoeness, Nagelsmann, Amorim, Inzaghi etc., Ashworth/Wilcox/Berrada should take into account, instead of just going for flavour of the month. The club needs to contextualize what has happened in other leagues and make a decision based on a more informed assessment.
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I wouldn't call De Zerbi realistic. Still only his first season at Marseille (so he'd cost a fortune to release, assuming they don't have some clause in his contract), and I feel like from a PR perspective he's a potential nightmare considering his willingness to build a squad from 'questionable' players.
Excellent post. Should probably be pinned somewhere in this thread as a guideline "if you want a certain manager, this is how you assess his performances the proper way".Yeah, given our current state, I'd much rather talk about what happened in different leagues than talk about what is going on at United
I was just saying that in the context of Amorim as the next United manager. I remember 3 years ago on the Caf, when we were discussing Pochettino vs Ten hag and this forum, and basically every United fan online, seemed to be rabidly pro-Ten Hag. I remember all the pundits and former players were pro-Poch and anytime one of them expressed this view on twitter, they got shouted down by this avalanche of pro-Ten Hag comments in the replies. Gary Neville even did a poll on his twitter and the results were Assad in Syria levels of one sided, which he seemed genuinely taken aback by. I even remember a story about the players apparently preferring Pochettino and the reaction (more on reddit than here) being something along the lines of 'these players are just lazy gits who don't want Ten Hag because he'll make them work hard'. Which even then seemed like a weird reaction. If there is one noticeable quality that Pochettino's Spurs team had was how physical and hard working they were. His teams' high pressing and aggression is what got him much of his early success in the Premier League. Once other teams caught up in terms of pressing, and coaches adjusted to the need of organized build-up patterns to play against a high press, his teams tailed off a bit. But we were all so pro-Ten Hag that we had no inclination to give any credibility to Poch.
Which is not to say that we would have been better off if we'd appointed Pochettino - we almost certainly would not have won the trophies we've won under Ten Hag given Pochettino's record. But many of the nuances people were offering about Ten Hag's record seem to have been valid. That he had such a massive financial advantage in the Eredivisie that his record needed to be contextualized. Yes, Ajax hadn't won the league in four years when he took over (and haven't won it in two years since he left) but it is still Ajax and all it needed was for them to use their considerable resources more effectively to turn that around. Even the Peter Bosz Ajax team we played in the Europa League final were already showing signs of them having their shit together - they already had De Ligt, Frenkie De Jong, Andre Onana, Hakim Ziyech, Schone and Davy Klassen who would go on to be major players for them under Ten Hag. If Peter Bosz hadn't been poached by Dortmund immediately after the final, he might have won the league with Ajax. And while he started the season great with Dortmund (was the record start at the time, I think?), his deficiencies in terms of defending transitions became pretty apparent pretty quickly. Even at Leverkusen, Bosz's football, which was electric going forward when it all clicked, seemed to have many of the same problems defensively as Ten Hag at United.
There was also the suggestion that Ten Hag's football at Ajax was really the consequence of Ajax's philosophy rather than something he'd imposed. And while he obviously coached it well, it was reasonable to question whether he'd be able to replicate it at United. This usually got the response that other Ajax managers like Frank De Boer had not been able to get the team to play with such verve. Which was true (I'll take Dutch posters word on this), but as noted, with a bit of time that might have been true of Peter Bosz. Bosz is currently showing the potential of his coaching methods at PSV, where he's been incredibly dominant. And Bosz would not be on anyone's list to be the next United manager now given his record in the top 5 leagues.
Ten Hag's record in Europe, rightly held up as evidence of his tactical acumen also had nuance in it which people pointed out at the time. The semi-final run was obviously brilliant - he beat Juventus and Real Madrid with Ajax. In the post above, @Invictus pointed out Amorim's financial disadvantage against the elites. Well, the same applies to Ten Hag. And he had achieved something even more eye catching. And then, in his final season, won 6 out of 6 in a group with Dortmund and Ruben Amorim's Sporting, absolutely smashing through the group. That group stage performance is really what made him a hot candidate for the United job because it showed that the semi-final run wasn't a fluke - with a couple of years to rebuild after the loss of De Ligt, Ziyech and De Jong, they were back to being one of the most exciting teams in Europe. But even then, in the intervening years, results were mixed. In 2019/20, they finished third in a group behind Frank Lampard's Chelsea and a Valencia team who finished 9th in La Liga. They impressed, beating Valencia 3-0 in Spain, and losing only 1-0 to Chelsea in Amsterdam. But the game against Chelsea in London, where they led 4-1 after 60 mins (again, super impressive) and blew that lead by the 75th minute to draw 4-4 was an early red flag about his teams' defensive frailty in Europe. This after blowing a 3-0 lead three halves into the tie against Spurs the previous season. And then, having gone down to the Europa League, they lost the round of 32 tie to Getafe (8th in La Liga, knocked out by Conte's Inter the next round). The season after, in 2020/21, they finished third behind Liverpool (who had a down year, and lost 7-2 to Villa two weeks before they faced Ajax) and Atalanta. They did impress against Liverpool and got praise from Klopp though. Going down into the Europa League, they beat Lille and Young Boys before losing to Paulo Fonseca's Roma, who Ole's United beat 6-2 at Old Trafford 2 weeks later (and 8-5 in the tie overall). Again, there's undoubtably impressive stuff there, but also clear points of concern about his teams in Europe, in terms of not beating sides they were probably better than.
I also remember some Ajax fans on here raising some questions about both his transfer record and his record with promoting academy players. On his transfers, that he is obsessed with signing players he's already worked with at past clubs and how these signing never work out. He was quite dependent on Overmars' acumen in the market to build the squad. On academy players, Ajax fans felt he was quite conservative about giving chances to academy players and only gave a shot if he felt they were better than the first teamers (De Jong, Timber, Gravenberch). Which I don't have a problem with, and Garnacho and Mainoo being promoted over 2 years is a perfectly respectable record. But, some United fans have raised questions about his handling of Amad and more recently, Alvaro Fernandez. And that seems very much in line with questions Ajax fans had raised.
All of which is to say that while I was among the masses proclaiming Ten Hag the messiah, and I do think that appointing him was the right decision given he has won 2 trophies (even if it looks like he's not good enough to re-establish United as a top club), there was a lot of nuance there for us to assess that people like me overlooked. And in keeping with the club's consistently poor decision making over the past 10 years, the club went with the people's choice instead of considering the nuance. Nuance which, when assessing Hoeness, Nagelsmann, Amorim, Inzaghi etc., Ashworth/Wilcox/Berrada should take into account, instead of just going for flavour of the month. The club needs to contextualize what has happened in other leagues and make a decision based on a more informed assessment.
It was mainly hypothetical. Accepted ten Hag had won because of Bosz' players despite refusing the import of Bosz himself not winning.
I remember the pro-EtH chatter, also, bit it was tentative. Neville's pro-Assad (if he did say so) is a lazy, dangerous and fickle comparison. We accepted we needed a new thpe of coach and EtH was the best of what was available.
Now, all the talk is EtH is a 'fraud' and we need to seriously think about Thomas Frank, Potter and, indeed, there was a thread exposing this, Southgate.
Truth is we don't know how Amorim will fare at United. He's never been involved with similar.
Porto and Benfica usually lose they best players consecutively but United's EPL rivals don't. Comparing Portugal with big-six top-four EPL ball is tenable in such regard.
think this thread should now be closed. who'd have thought he'd still be here as international week comes to a close. but he his. goddamit. he aint going nowhere till at least the xmas break now is he.
The guy is certainly a survivor, God knows how or why, so there is at least one thing he is good at, something to build on..
Ruben Amorim is also by all accounts crazy charismatic. Like any time his name gets brought up on say, r/soccer, Sporting fans always go out of their way to mention what a great communicator and leader he is. So he would certainly be a good fit for people who complain that Ten Hag is too dour/uninspiring. He also seems to inspire real passion from Sporting fans in the stadium. You can kind of see why Liverpool thought he might be the perfect Klopp replacement.
Plus, the fact that he won Sporting's first title in almost 2 decades is unquestionably impressive. That he's since gone and won the league again (after two seasons where they finished 2nd and 3rd) and is currently top of the table again is further evidence of just how impressive his work with Sporting is. Plus, as you mentioned, he beat Arsenal over 2 legs in a Europa League tie. Also beat Mourinho's Tottenham 2-0 in the Champions League group stage in 21/22 but ultimately got knocked out in the round of 16 by City as you say. So, it's not like he's not clever enough to adjust his tactics for Premier League sides.
He genuinely broke a duopoly/hegemony in the way that Klopp did at Dortmund, or Simeone did at Atletico, or even Ferguson at Aberdeen. But I'd say that Sporting's financial disadvantage against Benfica/Porto is negligible compared to Dortmund vs Bayern or Atletico vs Barca/Real. And I would still have doubts over his tactical system against teams where we are expected to beat. I've never actually seen one of his sides play so I might be way off base here. But from people who have analyzed his tactics, the consensus seems to be that his teams are very aggressive on the ball, often pushing both wing backs all the way up and leaving a lot of space in the wide channels for teams to hit on the break - Sporting conceded the highest xG from counters in Portugal last season (though Sporting also had the best xGA in Portugal last season and have had for much of Amorim's tenure there). I think given our experience with Ten Hag (and to a lesser extent, Postcoglou at Spurs), I am wary of managers of dominant teams in top-heavy leagues outside the big 5. They tend to not have focus as much on defensive transitions most weeks because of talent advantages their teams have. Obviously, that's also true of Slot at Feyenoord and he seems to have adjusted fine to the Premier League, Liverpool don't look particularly exposed defensively. So maybe Amorim would also be clever enough to adjust but it is difficult to just look at the Goals For/Against numbers he's put up at Sporting to make judgements about his fit for us.
A more detailed look into his tactics here showing how his teams create advantages in buildup and the use of quick combinations in the centre to create chances in the final third. Also highlights the space his teams leave in behind the wing backs -
I would rather take a chance on someone who's shown potential in a top 5 league such as Hoeness (dream appointment) or Inzaghi (most likely to succeed, in my opinion). If not, take a chance on Mckenna or Iraola, both of whom seem like the real deal to me.
I'm pro-Amorim but I do concede that he comes with some risks attached as you've highlighted.
What makes Hoeness your dream appointment? (Convince me)
Only to watch a couple games as all England managers do.
So Tuchel going to England and Amorim potentially going to City (if Pep goes).
And we're stuck with ETH. Lovely.
And we're stuck with ETH. Lovely.
Don't think he's going anywhere no matter what. INEOS have shown themselves to be totally inept at this. We are stuck with them and Ten Hag for a long time
feck. That makes me just even more upset.
No idea what United are doing. Do they not even have a backup plan?
Blindly following Erik is ridiculous
Blindly following Erik is ridiculous
feck sake
Independent of our own issues, Tuchel as england manager is fascinating. I think he could be the one to take them over the line
Yeah, we really need to be setting our eyes on somebody like Amorim now.
Would be funny if he manages to do worse than Southgate.
He'll be holding out for better than us, chie
The one that slipped away
Yup. We might just have to settle for mediocrity.
I somehow imagine Amorim taking over from where Pep left off but being a flop if he comes here
I hate how that seems to make sense. I hate how even the best wouldn’t be guaranteed successes.
City looking at Amorim to replace Pep. Was also close to replacing Klopp. I’m sold I guess
That’s really interesting. Thanks.
Ruben Amorim is also by all accounts crazy charismatic. Like any time his name gets brought up on say, r/soccer, Sporting fans always go out of their way to mention what a great communicator and leader he is. So he would certainly be a good fit for people who complain that Ten Hag is too dour/uninspiring. He also seems to inspire real passion from Sporting fans in the stadium. You can kind of see why Liverpool thought he might be the perfect Klopp replacement.
Plus, the fact that he won Sporting's first title in almost 2 decades is unquestionably impressive. That he's since gone and won the league again (after two seasons where they finished 2nd and 3rd) and is currently top of the table again is further evidence of just how impressive his work with Sporting is. Plus, as you mentioned, he beat Arsenal over 2 legs in a Europa League tie. Also beat Mourinho's Tottenham 2-0 in the Champions League group stage in 21/22 but ultimately got knocked out in the round of 16 by City as you say. So, it's not like he's not clever enough to adjust his tactics for Premier League sides.
He genuinely broke a duopoly/hegemony in the way that Klopp did at Dortmund, or Simeone did at Atletico, or even Ferguson at Aberdeen. But I'd say that Sporting's financial disadvantage against Benfica/Porto is negligible compared to Dortmund vs Bayern or Atletico vs Barca/Real. And I would still have doubts over his tactical system against teams where we are expected to beat. I've never actually seen one of his sides play so I might be way off base here. But from people who have analyzed his tactics, the consensus seems to be that his teams are very aggressive on the ball, often pushing both wing backs all the way up and leaving a lot of space in the wide channels for teams to hit on the break - Sporting conceded the highest xG from counters in Portugal last season (though Sporting also had the best xGA in Portugal last season and have had for much of Amorim's tenure there). I think given our experience with Ten Hag (and to a lesser extent, Postcoglou at Spurs), I am wary of managers of dominant teams in top-heavy leagues outside the big 5. They tend to not have focus as much on defensive transitions most weeks because of talent advantages their teams have. Obviously, that's also true of Slot at Feyenoord and he seems to have adjusted fine to the Premier League, Liverpool don't look particularly exposed defensively. So maybe Amorim would also be clever enough to adjust but it is difficult to just look at the Goals For/Against numbers he's put up at Sporting to make judgements about his fit for us.
A more detailed look into his tactics here showing how his teams create advantages in buildup and the use of quick combinations in the centre to create chances in the final third. Also highlights the space his teams leave in behind the wing backs -
I would rather take a chance on someone who's shown potential in a top 5 league such as Hoeness (dream appointment) or Inzaghi (most likely to succeed, in my opinion). If not, take a chance on Mckenna or Iraola, both of whom seem like the real deal to me.
Its all very interesting, but I'm very vary about managers who have one special tactic to have continued success in the top leagues. Once they get figured out things turn bad for them quick.