Yeah that's the exact order of the managers and pretty sure they brought in Txixi and Ferran first
Life after ETH — the next United manager
- Thread starter Red Star One
- Start date
Yeah that's the exact order of the managers and pretty sure they brought in Txixi and Ferran first
I wish that were true, MadDogg.
A bit naive.
After all, managers can also take longer to prove their quality. Ferguson took seven years to win us a championship, remember. (I'm aware he won with Aberdeen, but EtH with Ajax, Jose CL with Porto..)
Context is quite key. Ineos insisting Ashworth be given time follows a whole decade of Glazers allowing grand failure from their appointments.
The only true arbiter is results.
On that I agree, every appointment was done too late. However you have to consider 3 things
a- top talent in such niche roles are rare. There aren't many top Sporting directors around.
b- Newcastle and City made our life miserable. It was within their rights to do so but months of gardening leave is a bit too much
c- what was happening at United is unprecedented in 40 years of me watching football. I never seen a club building its entire football structure from scratch in a matter of months. Juventus came close following calciopoli (the resignation of the famous triade). But even then it wasn't as drastic as United's.
A- The Agnelli didn't sell a stake in Juventus and had more knowledge about football in their toe then all the Glazers combined
B- Those roles existed prior to those appointments. We never had a sporting director before or a CEO who had an idea of how football worked.
C- Juventus is nowhere near in terms of size to Manchester United.
D- Juventus were replacing the top people + some players who wanted to leave. The rest of their backroom staff who lead them to huge success up to that point was still there and raring to go. We seem to be struggling on everything whether its injuries, fitness and scouting. Meanwhile the training grounds need urgent revamping and the stadium is rotting.
What I feel INEOS had failed miserably is in terms of honesty. Unless they had plan A in the bag (ie Tuchel) then they should have come out and stated that with Ashworth/Berrada joining so late they were in no position to decide on the manager just yet. We would have been spared the ridiculous massive interview process that lead to nothing, ETH would have been less cocky and in a weaker position (there wouldn't be that silly 'I am INEOS best candidate' mantra) and because of that we would have had no reason to activate that 1 year contract extension on his terms.
I guess the good thing (if one were so inclined to see it as such) is that he averages something like a year and 9 months in a job, so we wouldn't have to put up with it for too long!
I can definitely imagine him coming here and just trying to batten down the hatches, with an aim clean-sheeting his way up the table. I think that was pretty much his M.O. at Chelsea.
I've read an interview with Zsolt Lőw, the long time assistant coach of Thomas Tuchel. (He is a fellow hungarian, appears frequently in the hungarian media). Ha told the reporter that they discussed the situation with Tuchel (they work together for years now) and decided to stay in Munich for at least an another year because of the families, kids, school, and so on. So apparently Tuchel isn't an option, at least not in january or earlier. I mean there's definitely enough money to convince him but... The other problem is, the mediocre squad. If i read on Transfermarkt that our team has a squad worth of 870 million or something i cannot believe my eyes. We've got okay defense but that's about it. Especially the attackers. Honestly, I'd keep only Garnacho and Hojlund, these two at least promising players but the rest, no way any coach could make a team which scores 85 goals in a season out of them. However, could make a LOT better team tham this totally clueless ten Hag.
All very good points.
But there are examples of football clubs creating their full structure from scratch in a short time, and the guy responsibly even was at United: Rangnick for Red Bull (Salzburg, Leipzig, New York). Sadly that ship sailed with his unfortunate interim manager run.
As we all know, Ratcliffe himself acknowledged that so many managers have failed at United that plainly something else is going on, so rotten is the club that it brings any and every manager we've tried to their knees.
Why would it be any different today? He also acknowledged in his 'not my call' comments, that the new executive team has been in place for only a few months. `By implication, not long enough to root out all that's rotten in the club.
What is that 'rottenness?' I do not know. I have never read a detailed explanation of it and I read a lot. Just hand waving and guff about 'best in class.'
I do know that it is a basic truth in organisational studies that massive rebuilding of the organisation is essential after a charismatic leader like Ferguson departs. Why so? The charismatic leader makes things happen because of who he/she is, there is little reliance on strong procedures, clear definitions of roles and responsibilities - the abc of good organisation.
Not only does his magnetism, personal drive and energy compensate for a poor, weak underlying organisation, but it obscures the very existence of any such problems, it makes it hard to address them. To a charismatic leader, strong procedures and clear responsibilities can seem more of a curse than a blessing. They get in the way. Once he's gone, the truth is laid bare. A new manager comes in, pulls a lever and nothing happens, tells someone to do something and not a lot happens ('not my job') there's no follow up (no mechanisms in place to ensure it) and so on.
How far has the rebuilding gone? I have no idea. From the outside it doesn't look great and Ratcliffe himself seems to suggest there has not been time enough yet. Is Ten Hag an obstacle? Maybe not. He seems to be a team player - team work is the norm for the Dutch. Will sacking him set back the rebuild? Quite possibly. His finger prints are all over it. Not least in transfers. Will the new bloke be perfectly accepting of the rebuild or will he have his own views about who should be doing what, when and why? I don't see a Tuchel being 100% compliant.
All of this will be glaringly obvious to the kind of top managers featured in our wish list. They know that old Trafford has been an elephant's grave yard for managers. Why would they come? Unless they were damaged and felt this was the best they could do now or madly arrogant and convinced their genius was enough? Tuchel maybe. Unless they were relatively young and aspirational and could never have dreamed of such a job unless Utd were in dire straits?
I don't envy the board their decision. I hope and pray that they don't do something knee jerk to appease the fans which will set the club back for another 3 years.
Why would it be any different today? He also acknowledged in his 'not my call' comments, that the new executive team has been in place for only a few months. `By implication, not long enough to root out all that's rotten in the club.
What is that 'rottenness?' I do not know. I have never read a detailed explanation of it and I read a lot. Just hand waving and guff about 'best in class.'
I do know that it is a basic truth in organisational studies that massive rebuilding of the organisation is essential after a charismatic leader like Ferguson departs. Why so? The charismatic leader makes things happen because of who he/she is, there is little reliance on strong procedures, clear definitions of roles and responsibilities - the abc of good organisation.
Not only does his magnetism, personal drive and energy compensate for a poor, weak underlying organisation, but it obscures the very existence of any such problems, it makes it hard to address them. To a charismatic leader, strong procedures and clear responsibilities can seem more of a curse than a blessing. They get in the way. Once he's gone, the truth is laid bare. A new manager comes in, pulls a lever and nothing happens, tells someone to do something and not a lot happens ('not my job') there's no follow up (no mechanisms in place to ensure it) and so on.
How far has the rebuilding gone? I have no idea. From the outside it doesn't look great and Ratcliffe himself seems to suggest there has not been time enough yet. Is Ten Hag an obstacle? Maybe not. He seems to be a team player - team work is the norm for the Dutch. Will sacking him set back the rebuild? Quite possibly. His finger prints are all over it. Not least in transfers. Will the new bloke be perfectly accepting of the rebuild or will he have his own views about who should be doing what, when and why? I don't see a Tuchel being 100% compliant.
All of this will be glaringly obvious to the kind of top managers featured in our wish list. They know that old Trafford has been an elephant's grave yard for managers. Why would they come? Unless they were damaged and felt this was the best they could do now or madly arrogant and convinced their genius was enough? Tuchel maybe. Unless they were relatively young and aspirational and could never have dreamed of such a job unless Utd were in dire straits?
I don't envy the board their decision. I hope and pray that they don't do something knee jerk to appease the fans which will set the club back for another 3 years.
Last edited:
United aren't Leipzig and new York. I mentioned Juventus who are a big club with a century of history but even juve pales in comparison to united in terms of complexity
True. Still the closest thing I can think of to what United needs.
The caf holds its breath.
Every manager will change some aspects from the previous one. But it should be tweaks and improvement, rather than having to make wholesale changes that require ripping everything up and starting again. Which is basically what we're going to have to do after ETH as what he's got us doing is ridiculous.
A manager who can come in, stabilise us and get us back to competing for the 4th-6th positions, while implementing a system that has a lot of upsides and developing good patterns of play, is fine for the short term. They may not be good enough at some aspects of the job to go any further, but that can then be tweaked and improved by the next guy. For instance, perhaps they develop great patterns of play when we have possession and a really good high press, but they leave us too open at the back so we keep conceding stupid goals and lose too many games that we are otherwise dominating. The next guy then can come in, maintain (or improve) that possession play and high press while tweaking the system so we become strong defensively as well.
As opposed to what we have now, which is 14th spot (based on over half a seasons worth of results, not just the 7 games of this season), doing terribly in Europe, and with a style that basically brings no long term benefit at all.
There is none
He wouldn't join Liverpool, his former club and currently much stronger club, in the Summer. Why would he join United? He will not
Probably eyeing Madrid role post Ancelotti
Without a doubt, like I said last night IF (big one) he never manages that lot then there is maybe a chance it still happens one day
Interesting points here. Made me think about Tuchel as a real option again even though my instincts are saying no. It's definitely not without merit.
Clearly has experience at the highest level and has won several trophies domestically and in Europe basically everywhere he's been. If he is both tactically flexible like you say and can motivate our best players, he would probably be the lowest risk option in terms of trying to make the Champions League next year. Sounds like it's a 50 mio loss if we don't couple with all the problems that would bring in terms of competing for the best players and talents next summer. So maybe he is the best bet in a bad situation.
A lot about him concerns me though, especially given how I perceive the strategy the club is trying to follow to bring us back to the top again and the risks to that development plan, if we bring in Tuchel. I can't help but feel like it would be akin to cauterizing a wound. Okay, it would most likely stop the bleeding in the short term and stabilize the patient. Perhaps even win us a trophy (EL would be huge), prevent us from operating with a smaller budget next summer, end the humiliations at the hands of rival clubs and so on. All good things. But will it help or hinder us further down the road?
Ever since leaving Mainz in 2014, he has been no longer than two years in a job. Left Dortmund after two years, PSG the same, Chelsea after a year and a half and less than one year at Bayern. So what would make it likely for him to be here for up to four years? I can see the logic in having to think about this as a 2-stage situation, but if we're going with Tuchel it actually seems more likely we would be looking at changing again in less than two seasons while having to deal with a potentially messy situation in the immediate aftermath. Sure, there are caveats with most of his previous clubs given the almost built-in drama at PSG, Chelsea and Bayern in recent times at least. But are we really likely to be much different from them in the short term? With apparent dressing room culture issues, massive media scrutiny, ex-players influencing the narrative around the club etc.? Could he even blow up before this season is over if things aren't working out and be another expensive payoff to add to the balance sheet going into next season? How much would we have to bow to his demands and compromise on principles to even make him interested?
He has had public blow ups with management at every club he has been in following Mainz as far as I can tell. Getting a lot of Jose vibes here. A pragmatic tactician, big ego individualist, someone who is more than ready to start fires if he doesn't get his way. Someone who also demands a lot of control wherever he goes. It seems like a poor fit for a club with a completely new management structure that is reportedly trying to modernise across the board, define and follow a game plan and create a structure in terms of playstyle, recruitment policy, youth development and pathways to the first team and so on.
I can't help but feel like the theoretical short term gains would be outweighed by the almost guaranteed, medium to long term negative impacts he could bring. If we brought him in, are we really likely to be in a better position in a couple of seasons with regards to creating the kind of culture and alignment throughout the club that appears to fuel the succes our biggest rivals have had?
Whether we have any real alternatives to someone like Tuchel at the moment though, I'm not sure. I do personally like the idea of going all in for a club builder with potential even if it costs us to do so in the short term results and financials. Say we hired someone like Thomas Frank. Or even Graham Potter to be our Guus Hiddink for the remainder of the season. If they don't work out, they wouldn't torch the place or cost as much to get rid of. They're much more likely to be loyal to the long term plan and work within the framework setup by the executive team.
Maybe we don't win anything or even make top four. But if we have to make a change again soon, I think we're likely be set up better for that appointment than we would be if we go for someone like Tuchel now.
You make some very valid points about Tuchel, however just feel he has that authority to command respect from the dressing room which is needed. I just would worry that a Frank or Potter is going to be walked all over by the current lot.
I think we need a charismatic and experienced manager for who players are ready to play for and who they respect. Ancelotti and Zidane comes to my mind. But Ancelotti won't even consider United as long as he is wanted in Madrid. Zidane doesn't seems to be interested. Manager like McKenna would be totally opposite choice. Stay away from young inexperienced newcomers. These lazy primadonnas would turn against him asap.
Still stings we didn't get Ancelotti in 2013, simply had to be next on list when couldn't get Guardiola. Yeah it's a shame that Zidane seems so closed up on ever managing in England
Oh dear! Many fans pins their hope on Tuchel as saviour. I thought he plays modern high intensity attacking football.
How is his football compared to ETH? Surely much more entertaining?
Nah I am well aware of his flaws, however still want him to become manager. Hoping the club see it as a bridging appointment to a long term one in 2026 or 2027
The best team-player managers in the game are Pep Guardiola, Jurgen Klopp, Luis Enrique, Carlo Ancelotti, Massimiliano Allegri, Graham Potter and Gareth Southgate. They have all left their jobs in a better place than what they found them. Which is definitely not true about most managers. We are seeing very positive signs from Inzaghi, Amorim, Hoeness and Arteta - but the jury is still out on them.
I wouldn't mind a builder coming in and stabilizing us as a top 4 club, that would probably be preferable even.
I don't think even big fans of Tuchel would claim he plays out and out attacking football. However its not like that's our only shortcoming and he would probably solve our issues around a lack of control and vacant midfield. while also playing a pressing and possession style of football that would make for better continuity in terms of squad development. Plus he's available now, which is something you can't say for many managers frankly.
This thread hitting a wall seems telling, urgh
God that’s a highly uninspiring choice of candidates. Yes they’re better than ten Hag but they’re still all mediocre choices.
Who is your choice then, as of today's date or during this international break? Bring out 3 examples.
I’d prefer Amorim, Inzhagi, or Nagelsmann, but none of those three are realistic. I just hope that those at the top know what they’re doing and make a wise choice.
People are truly amazing creatures, some cretin, Luckhurst, writes an article about Tuchel and now all of a sudden he's the favorite choice of United fans. I don't think too many United fans, in a world where we could pick anyone we wanted, would ever pick Tuchel. Let's go down the list; 1) first of all, he's a dick, no way around it, not a pleasant character, whines extensively about multiple excuses, falls out with players and management. 2) Boring football, I'm sorry, never watched a Tuchel team and been entertained. I know we need to win, but it's not like he would be a stopgap, Tuchel would be the next manager and we need a manager with a focus on style. 3) Formation, Tuchel plays a back 3, I'm sorry, call me old-school, whatever, but in what world does Manchester United play with a back three? I want no part of that nonsense. 4) And maybe most importantly, he isn't a manager that will put a focus on youth, he will want big money signings. The whole philosophy of the club right now is youth, are we going to sell and loan all our talent, Mainoo, Garnacho, Amad, Hojlund, Yoro, Colyer, Amass, etc, etc, because Tuchel won't play them?
Tuchel is an awful choice and I don't think any United fan thinking clearly would ever pick him to manage United, because he spits in the face of the very ethos of the club.
Tuchel is an awful choice and I don't think any United fan thinking clearly would ever pick him to manage United, because he spits in the face of the very ethos of the club.
Gary Neville said lately "no United fan wants EtH gone", so he must be right. We're all happy with the progress and what we see on the pitch.
Amorim as I've said for ages. Also think he is realistic (at the end of the season)
I might be giving him too much credit, but in the context of when he said it I think he meant that United fans don't want to keep chopping and changing managers every few years. And that ideally United fans would rather Ten Hag turns it around than is sacked.
Not putting up with Erik until May, could accept putting an interim in place if it secured him
I think you're giving him too much credit and it's a deeply flawed logic. "Ideally" I'd want Greenwood not to be a violent piece of shit - should I then say I didn't really want him gone? "Ideally" I would rather see Martial turn it around and become a 30-goals-a-season striker.
We are operating in the real world, not a fantasy, so focusing on unrealistic scenarios harms our decision-making and damages the club.
Both paths are risky in their own ways no doubt about that.
My sense with Frank is that he has the personality and possibly ideas to make it at a higher level, but we have no hard evidence of course. Potter I did like at Brighton and perhaps the connection with Ashworth could boost his chances of working out a bit more. Plus he's available for free. I don't know enough about why it failed for him at Chelsea to say whether it really pertains to our case or not. I can't help but think a new hire would need to bring some energy and personal charisma along with compelling ideas on the pitch to give the players a jolt, and Potter just seems like a poor fit in that sense. Maybe I'm judging a book too much by its cover on that one though. A calmer touch could work as well.
It really does depend a lot on what the problem actually is with Ten Hag and the current players. Is the team too factious, is it low on confidence, does it need inspiration, a better transmission of the tactical setup, or what's actually going on behind the scenes? Right now it feels like everything is malfunctioning and going wrong, but some problems must run deeper.
If the team is fractured, uninspired and need someone to make them think that they can win here and now, Tuchel could work for a while at least. If they need someone to instill some camaraderie, inspire them with a playstyle and the potential for succes in the longer term, while also keeping the peace throughout the club, then I think Tuchel is the riskier choice.
At least this time around I do trust the current management team to make their decision mostly based on information and analysis of precisely what those underlying problems are. As opposed to solely thinking about optics and keeping the brand alive to keep selling those tractors.
We should get Tuchel to stable the ship.
Completely agree, shame INEOS lack guts
Same, just mid season options are limited, we have played ourselves in this tough situation.
The meeting's over now. Nothing to see here folks.
Totally agree - Tuchel would be a monumental disaster.
For me at this point, it's less about who United signed to replace ten Hag, but more on whether United board can make the decision to sacked that manager when the time comes.
I don't want Tuchel long term, but some of this is just plain false. He only played a back 3 at Chelsea, he played a back 4 at PSG. There were also 2 Chelsea youth in that CL final : Mount and James. He also regularly used Zouma, Christensen, Abraham and Hudson Odoi.
In my opinion, it will take 2/3 years for us to compete that the top again. It's not likely that we will maintain the same manager in this time frame. In the mean time, whoever our manager is should coach us closer to the type of football required of a top team. I don't really care who it is.
This is the same metric I judge Ten Hag by. Does our approach lead us to regularly control games against lesser teams, generally higher up the pitch with comfortable possession? Do we have a good structure on and off the ball, in settled or non settled play? Ten Hag's done none of these nor has he brought us closer to them, so he should go. And whoever we bring in needs to improve us in these aspects, and if they don't they should go also.