Life after ETH — the next United manager

[Red Star One]

I'd argue that the development of players like Dalot and Mainoo show that ETH can be a very good coach. There are counter examples to be sure. But I'm not sure any coach could give Antony two good feet, Casemiro fully functioning leg muscles or Sancho a good attitude.

Well, I don't know how much of Mainoo development is really down to ETH. We are talking about the most exciting academy prospect in years, he's developing at his own pace and his improvements are mainly thanks to the youth department. Yes, ETH gave him game time which is appreciated, but is really that his coaching and tactics developed or unlocked Mainoo? Not my impression, he would've been as much of a talent under many other managers, too.

 

[crossy1686]

Nobody wants to give him ten years. Let's just give him till the new year and if we're still not seeing progress than bon voyage.

What’s the point? It’s not working now, if it’s not working by then we’ve thrown away another season. He would have to win the rest of the games between now and Christmas and look convincing along the way to prove something has changed. Some things just don’t improve with time, we know exactly what’s going to happen in the new year, it’s as obvious as the nose on your face.

 

[NLunited]

He actually brought a lot of the players he then proceeded to expose, which is funny.

Manager's job is to adapt tactics to the players he has available, not ask them to play a style very few players are capable of playing.

A more nuanced answer: Casemiro and Eriksen were massive the first season, but have declined. They were stop gap signings to help the team immediately which they did. They performed very well under Ten Hag.

Casemiro can‘t really play at the top level anymore: he doesn‘t have the qualities a Modric or Kroos has that make up for his physical decline.

I see both now as rotation options for less intense games.

As for tactics: the playstyle that fit players like this is not viable. That‘s why we are buying players with a high technical and physical level.

 

[VP89]

What’s the point? It’s not working now, if it’s not working by then we’ve thrown away another season. He would have to win the rest of the games between now and Christmas and look convincing along the way to prove something has changed. Some things just don’t improve with time, we know exactly what’s going to happen in the new year, it’s as obvious as the nose on your face.

We are 3 games into a new coaching staff and a new structure. Like it or lump it that's too small a data set for INEOS to judge him from. They've clearly decided to back him and see how he performs. All last year does is give them the opportunity to put pressure on him to get results earlier. But 3 games is still too small.

 

[Overhaul FC]

Panicking about what? What are you talking about?

Another one that needs reminding that it's 100+ games we've seen this dross, not 3.

100+ games of winning trophies while overhauling a squad clearly isn't for everyone.

 

[Sarni]

We are 3 games into a new coaching staff and a new structure. Like it or lump it that's too small a data set for INEOS to judge him from. They've clearly decided to back him and see how he performs. All last year does is give them the opportunity to put pressure on him to get results earlier. But 3 games is still too small.

We are more than a hundred games into his tenure. You don’t just cancel previous two years.

But I’m sure you are going to move goalposts if we are lingering in the bottom half at Christmas, probably to ‘he’s only had one window’.

 

[crossy1686]

We are 3 games into a new coaching staff and a new structure. Like it or lump it that's too small a data set for INEOS to judge him from. They've clearly decided to back him and see how he performs. All last year does is give them the opportunity to put pressure on him to get results earlier. But 3 games is still too small.

What are you hoping to see over another 10 games that you haven’t seen already? What do you believe is going to happen that would keep him in a job? This is a man who talks about nothing but principles after every game, you think he’s going to change because you want him to?

 

[Sarni]

A more nuanced answer: Casemiro and Eriksen were massive the first season, but have declined. They were stop gap signings to help the team immediately which they did. They performed very well under Ten Hag.

Casemiro can‘t really play at the top level anymore: he doesn‘t have the qualities a Modric or Kroos has that make up for his physical decline.

I see both now as rotation options for less intense games.

As for tactics: the playstyle that fit players like this is not viable. That‘s why we are buying players with a high technical and physical level.

First season worked largely because he basically surrendered his ‘vision’ two games in. He proceeded to play a much more conservative football, which brought good results and actually made us look half decent.

 

[Overhaul FC]

These are the people who said they want to see Ten Hag under the 'new structure'. It was obvious they didn't understand what they were talking about last season and they were just throwing out buzzwords they'd heard in the media. They would gladly give him 10 years in the job and see us cycle through 2 whole squads, and even then they'd blame someone else for the mess. I think it's systemic at this point, some just don't want to move on from the stability that Fergie brought for 26 years. They have this faith, and it is faith, not hope, because there is no actual evidence, that the manager will become world class if he's just allowed to do whatever the feck he wants without question or scrutiny.

So no1 at the club is questioning or scrutinizing Ten Hag at the club now? That's a new one. People will say anything to suit their narrative. Not enough objectiveness.

 

[Leftback99]

100+ games of winning trophies while overhauling a squad clearly isn't for everyone.

Definitely not. Some of us know what a decent team looks like, others are clueless.

 

[crossy1686]

100+ games of winning trophies while overhauling a squad clearly isn't for everyone.

We won a 100+ trophies!? Shit, I must have missed this. I just saw us finish 8th and look like shit for 18 months but I guess that’s acceptable these days.

 

[crossy1686]

So no1 at the club is questioning or scrutinizing Ten Hag at the club now? That's a new one. People will say anything to suit their narrative. Not enough objectiveness.

You’re clearly not seeing as you’re happy with our 8th place finish.

 

[Overhaul FC]

Definitely not. Some of us know what a decent team looks like, others are clueless.

Ever managed a football team? At any level?

 

[VP89]

We are more than a hundred games into his tenure. You don’t just cancel previous two years.

But I’m sure you are going to move goalposts if we are lingering in the bottom half at Christmas, probably to ‘he’s only had one window’.

Im not cancelling anything. He had a very good season and then an atrocious one. He now has the chance to right his wrongs with a new coaching staff, new players and a new structure above him. They're going to wait for a bigger sample size than 3 games before ruling on how that's going.

What last season does do however, is put that pressure on him early doors. Which I agree with.

What are you hoping to see over another 10 games that you haven’t seen already? What do you believe is going to happen that would keep him in a job? This is a man who talks about nothing but principles after every game, you think he’s going to change because you want him to?

I'd want to see our opening 45 vs Fulham and our opening 15-20 to Liverpool shown to a greater degree in a single game. At least 70 minutes plus. And I want it over every game and I want results.

Its a high bar to be honest, which is why I've said it's his last chance saloon. I get some want to say I'm giving excuses, I don't even care about the fact that his next run is against trickier teams. Perform now or be replaced.

 

[devilish]

You say this but the managers that have the most success in the PL are Italians and Portuguese blokes. It's not really about understanding the PL, although there is an element of that, we saw managers like Pep and Klopp have to adapt when they first came, but the red thread between managers that do well in the PL and those that don't is that they're good fecking managers who know how to get the best out of their players and their in game management/people skills are excellent.

Most success in the EPL came from either the Scottish (SAF 13 EPL titles) or the Spanish (Pep 6 EPL titles) followed by the Italians (4 by Ancelotti, Ranieri, Conte and Mancini) but that's irrelevant. United had been victim of managers coming in, with zero (or near zero) EPL experience and who totally underestimated this league. Clubs like City and Chelsea can afford on the job training as they have the funds to keep bankrolling the manager irrespective of any mistakes he might make. We don't.

Hence I hope that the next manager has already previous EPL experience. He would have an idea how the EPL operate, its tempo and physicality and what managing a club like United means.

 

[glazed]

Well, I don't know how much of Mainoo development is really down to ETH.

I know but then how much of Rashford going to sh1t is down to ETH? We never know these things. We just have to take at face value that some players have improved. Under Ole, every player seemed to get worse so it's progress of sorts.

What’s the point? It’s not working now, if it’s not working by then we’ve thrown away another season. He would have to win the rest of the games between now and Christmas and look convincing along the way to prove something has changed.

I agree its not working now but I never expected it to with Casemiro or McT playing the holding midfield. The question is will it work with Ugarte? I'm not convinced it will but I'm not convinced it won't either. Let's find out.

I'm always mindful of how much of a mess the Glazers left. The dumb fantasy league manager mindset is to say that manager + players = team when it's so much more complicated than that.

 

[Leftback99]

Ever managed a football team? At any level?

Yes

 

[croadyman]

Who is your top 3 mate?

Alonso
Nagelsmann
Inzaghi

You could have potentially put Zidane in there as well, however not much point as by all accounts doesn't have intention of managing in England. Understandably he would prioritise the France job over any club one and he's clearly waiting for that.

 

[thisisnottaken1]

Just give the job to Ruben Amorim already.

He is off to a perfect start at Sporting this season.

This. I’d love for him to be our manager.

 

[Zumbi]

Because other clubs aren't rebuilding from the basement up after being absolutely wrecked by the Glazers. In that context eighth was fine. Yes he could have played to the strengths of the squad, but then we'd still be playing shite Oleball and the players we need would not come or would not develop if they did.

No, eighth wasn't fine. It's the worst league campaign we've ever had under the glazers, despite the huge sums spent. It was a worse league campaign than the one that got Ole sacked, and a worse league position than we had when Ten Hag took over. That's why he was very almost sacked, and why he's a laughing stock amongst fans of other clubs. Refusing to assign any blame to Ten Hag for such a poor season is just a bizarre cop out. What has happened to the club when fans are claiming eighth is fine? Shameful.

 

[Highfather_24]

This. I’d love for him to be our manager.

Isnt he primarily a counter attack style manager?

He is also not familiar with the PL, similar to Ten Hag.

Risk imo.

 

[Zumbi]

We are 3 games into a new coaching staff and a new structure. Like it or lump it that's too small a data set for INEOS to judge him from. They've clearly decided to back him and see how he performs. All last year does is give them the opportunity to put pressure on him to get results earlier. But 3 games is still too small.

They really have not. They very almost sacked him, and it seems like the only reason they haven't yet is because they couldn't come to terms with a replacement. Describing that as "clearly" backing him is quite the stretch. He's obviously on incredibly thin ice, and I have no doubt whatsoever that INEOS will be deep in the succession planning right now on the assumption that he'll be on his way soon if he doesn't oversee a very quick and very dramatic turnaround.

 

[thisisnottaken1]

Isnt he primarily a counter attack style manager?

He is also not familiar with the PL, similar to Ten Hag.

Risk imo.

feck. I didn’t know that.

 

[Teja]

Just give the job to Ruben Amorim already.

He is off to a perfect start at Sporting this season.

There's a reason why Pool walked - need to be be careful before jumping in here. What I've read about that situation was that he insisted on playing a back three and wasn't in favor of tweaking his tactics to suit existing personnel in the squad. He basically wanted them to make a squad that suits his football rather than the other way round.

Of course there's push and pull in these things - you don't want a manager to throw away his principles just to suit a squad he's been given but you also can't say I'm completely inflexible, make a squad in my image. Every coaching appointment has risk and if you back the wrong one to that extent, you can't recover for half a decade.

 

[glazed]

No, eighth wasn't fine. It's the worst league campaign we've ever had under the glazers, despite the huge sums spent.

Eighth was an accumulation of all the bad decisions the Glazers made coming home to roost at once plus the chaos caused by having to address them plus so many teams who had not made terrible management decisions pulling ahead. Of course it was going to be painful. ETH's first season was a bit misleading in that respect. And had Rashford not hit such a purple patch we would have done far worse.

Had we not made these changes we would have gone the way of Aston Villa, Everton, Leeds United, Wolves, Sheffield Wednesday and even Manchester City for many years. Being a huge club is far more temporary than we like to imagine. Eighth could have been the start of the decline not the end, had the Glazers not left management.

 

[gaffs]

There's a reason why Pool walked - need to be be careful before jumping in here. What I've read about that situation was that he insisted on playing a back three and wasn't in favor of tweaking his tactics to suit existing personnel in the squad. He basically wanted them to make a squad that suits his football rather than the other way round.

Of course there's push and pull in these things - you don't want a manager to throw away his principles just to suit a squad he's been given but you also can't say I'm completely inflexible, make a squad in my image. Every coaching appointment has risk and if you back the wrong one to that extent, you can't recover for half a decade.

Wouldn't that be an advantage for us?

It is not like we are a wash with great full backs!

 

[TheBigLewandowski]

I'm not 100% sure if this is true -

But the one thing that worries me about Zidane was that i felt like he got the best out of the players he got given at Madrid rather than build his own team.

Wasn't Ronaldo, Bale, Benzema, Kroos, Modric etc all there when he arrived?

 

[VP89]

They really have not. They very almost sacked him, and it seems like the only reason they haven't yet is because they couldn't come to terms with a replacement. Describing that as "clearly" backing him is quite the stretch. He's obviously on incredibly thin ice, and I have no doubt whatsoever that INEOS will be deep in the succession planning right now on the assumption that he'll be on his way soon if he doesn't oversee a very quick and very dramatic turnaround.

They went from being very close to sacking him to publically backing him. So they won't just ditch this plan after 3 games.

He's under a lot of pressure but it doesn't take anything away from the point I've made. They also publically backed him just before the kick off for Liverpool, so theyl wait for a bigger sample than 3 games to decide.

 

[golden_blunder]

Unfortunately the majority of fans and even posters on here are sheep that believe what the tabloids, Sky or Talk sport lead them to believe.

It's a constant headache trying to be an objective fan and call a spade a spade. Ten Hag has many qualities and that's why INEOS kept him. He just has to keep proving he can deliver with a now improving starting lineup.

We will sign the players we need to complete the squad in January and next summer. His job is to show enough with the current squad that he deserves to be the manager that benefits and should lead the completed squad.

3 games in fans are panicking, despite Yoro, Hojlund and Ugarte not playing a minute. A fans brain must be a bag of spanners if they're panicking already. INEOS will atleast give him September and October to prove we're making the strides needed to prove he's the guy for us going forwards.

If he's not showing it then we'll no doubt appoint a new manager in November so he can work with the squad ahead of the January window where the squad might need one or two to bolster it in the search for a top 4 finish to salvage the season.

Panic isn't for now, it's for November if he doesn't get us playing well consistently.

Coming from a ID called ‘Overhaul FC’

 

[Fortitude]

Nobody wants to give him ten years. Let's just give him till the new year and if we're still not seeing progress than bon voyage.

Why are you - and those with this mindset - so nonchalant about risking or writing off entire seasons like it’s nothing? What happens at the New Year point if he’s nosedived us, again? The fallout extends beyond the current season. Two terrible campaigns in a row would be damning for us and damaging across the board: financially, morale, desire for good players to stay, penalties for good/great players to join, desire for new sponsors and so on and so forth. It’s not tank inside a bubble; we’re already in a state of disgrace for the shambles that was last season, let alone compounding it, potentially.

 

[bb8]

Can we at least give him til the next international break? I agree that those saying to give him a whole 'nother season, or even guarantee his job until the New Year, are granting too long a leash. By the same token, 3 games is a miniscule sample size and clearly too small. It would look comical to fire him so soon.

Give him until the October break, that's another 7 matches. Most likely there is no lasting damage done waiting that long and that gives you a bigger sample to go with. I think either that international break or the one in November are the ones to act on if results haven't improved much.

 

[FortunaUtd]

Isnt he primarily a counter attack style manager?

He is also not familiar with the PL, similar to Ten Hag.

Risk imo.

Once again, the PL 'familiarity' is an enormously silly argument considering every league title won in the last 30 seasons or so, the exception being Mourinho's second Chelsea stint and Ranieri, was won by a manager in his first Premier League job.
A manager hired from another PL club has never won the league (except Dalglglish with Blackburn 95 I guess?)
Managers do not need to be familiar with the league. They need to be good at their job. Period.

 

[Reddeadphoenix]

It makes sense to start this thread again — a terrible start of the season, 87% Caf members voting 'sack' in the poll, another humiliation at Old Trafford in front of Sir Alex, Sir Jim and tens of thousands of fans who decided to leave the stadium empty among the YWNA chants. My wishful thinking aside, the chances of ETH surviving until the end of the season seem to be rather low.

So who will replace the master excuser? Are we dead certain that Ruud was brought to jump in as a caretaker when needed? Aren't we (and the structure) a bit worried about his lack of experience and pedigree at the highest level? And who would you like to see given the permanent manager role? Tuchel seems a strong candidate, perhaps this time around we'd go for a more "hipster" and less-known manager in the mold of Hürzeler? Seb Hoeneß seems to be rated very highly and might be the next big thing. Could it be McKenna already?

We need a strong manager. Tuchel, seems to have that...maybe too strong for the owners last time .
Two more names to throw in the pot could be Allegri, strong but English level? And Bielsa, strong, practical and attractive football, deserves a big club. Let's see how brave the new back room at United are??

 

[TheReligion]

Ineos Team need to speed up the process to identify the next manager. I don't think ETH will last 2024. We will need a new manager in time for Jan 2025 transfer window.

Why do we?

 

[AbusementPark]

Southgate is free

 

[glazed]

Why are you - and those with this mindset - so nonchalant about risking or writing off entire seasons like it’s nothing? What happens at the New Year point if he’s nosedived us, again?

It's like a cancer patient complaining he's missed the London Marathon again because of the chemo. We fix this stuff now or we end up like Everton skirting relegation. All this 'ETH must be shite' presupposes there wasn't a huge amount wrong with the club and that fixing it is easy. None of that is true.

However he might still be shite. He has till January 1 to show he isn't.

 

[Dr. T]

If we end up plumping for Southgate it’ll be our ‘Hodgson at Liverpool’ moment.

Perhaps we need a catastrophic appointment after years of stark decline to shake us back to some sort of upward trajectory.

IDK. Trying to put a positive spin on terrible things. There’s no future under ETH; there’s no future without him.

 

[Zumbi]

They went from being very close to sacking him to publically backing him. So they won't just ditch this plan after 3 games.

He's under a lot of pressure but it doesn't take anything away from the point I've made. They also publically backed him just before the kick off for Liverpool, so theyl wait for a bigger sample than 3 games to decide.

Well of course they publicly backed him. They’re hardly going to come out and announce “our manager’s a bit shit so we interviewed some other ones but couldn’t do a deal so will stick the current mess for a bit longer whilst we figure out a replacement”.

Do you really take public statements from football clubs at face value?

Do you know how many football clubs have released statements publicly backing their manager literally days/weeks before sacking them?

And agreed they won’t ditch him after three games. But that still doesn’t mean they’ve “backed” him in any proper sense. It just means they aren’t quite ready to sack him just yet, even if it’s clear they’ve been heavily flirting with the idea since since the end of last season. It’s laughable describing that as them backing him.

 

[Zumbi]

Eighth was an accumulation of all the bad decisions the Glazers made coming home to roost at once plus the chaos caused by having to address them plus so many teams who had not made terrible management decisions pulling ahead. Of course it was going to be painful. ETH's first season was a bit misleading in that respect. And had Rashford not hit such a purple patch we would have done far worse.

Had we not made these changes we would have gone the way of Aston Villa, Everton, Leeds United, Wolves, Sheffield Wednesday and even Manchester City for many years. Being a huge club is far more temporary than we like to imagine. Eighth could have been the start of the decline not the end, had the Glazers not left management.

It was also an accumulation of all the poor decisions Ten Hag has made regarding team set up, tactics, substitutions etc. Why are you so determined to shield him from any responsibility for things that are very clearly his responsibility?

 

[VP89]

Well of course they publicly backed him. They’re hardly going to come out and announce “our manager’s a bit shit so we interviewed some other ones but couldn’t do a deal so will stick the current mess for a bit longer whilst we figure out a replacement”.

Do you really take public statements from football clubs at face value?

Do you know how many football clubs have released statements publicly backing their manager literally days/weeks before sacking them?

And agreed they won’t ditch him after three games. But that still doesn’t mean they’ve “backed” him in any proper sense. It just means they aren’t quite ready to sack him just yet, even if it’s clear they’ve been heavily flirting with the idea since since the end of last season. It’s laughable describing that as them backing him.

I don't take just the public statements in isolation at face value. But the context is important - for example do you know where the comments came from?

Also, the backing isn't just public. They've supported him with the coaching staff and players to suit a particular style.