Jose Gimenez

[devilish]

Pretty much you just said what I was about to post. He played alongside Godin. Gimenez hasn't shown that he can be the leader at a top club because he is supported by Godin. Most of the pressured were handled by Godin in their centre back partnership.

I have said this before, Giggs and Neville brothers have said that without Bruce, Cantona, Keane, Pallister and Schmeichel they won't be able to handle most of the pressure alone. Young players need those kind of players.

No 22 year old will ever take such responsibility especially in a new club and that include Roy Keane. You might not know, but young Roy sent his CV to every EPL club bar Manchester United because he thought he wasn’t good enough. During his early years, Ince and Robson were the most vocal people in midfield not him.

In my opinion, Mourinho is trying to spot people who are leader material. Both Bailly and Gimenez are warriors on the pitch, who wouldn’t take defeat lightly. Gimenez had built quite a reputation at Madrid and that despite partnering his idol in CB. You’d expect a player to tiptoe around their idol and let him conduct the show in the same way Jones/Smalling/Evans used to do when playing alongside Rio/Vidic. Gimenez doesn’t do that.

As a person who had seen enough young talent grow and become leaders I can assure you, that most of the time, leaders aren’t born but made. I can’t help thinking that we’ve got too many boy scouts in our team who are just happy to wear the red shirt and win the odd cup. Most of these players have more medals then rival club legends Steve Gerrard and are happy to settle for that. That needs to change.

 

[devilish]

We have enough young defenders like Bailly and Tuanzebe. Or even that Williams guy and Mensah can play in that position. But what we are lacking are that leadership.

We can always sign young defender in any next summer windows once we solve that "leadership" problem first.

Just think about it, what happened to Juventus when they decided to sign a more experienced midfielder like Pirlo first, solve the problem first and build their midfield around him and then next season sign the young one for future like Pogba? Double and went to final CL in one season.

FFS can you first allow Tuanzebe, Williams and TFM to prove themselves before even mentioning them as squad members? Did we had enough Machedas, Fabio Da Silvas, Chadwicks, Januzajs and Wilsons to acknowledge that the real talk is done on the pitch and not out of it?

I am not saying that we shouldn't give kids a chance. However let them go on loan for 1-2 years and if they do well then they can return and replace those who failed. I am very confident that even if we buy Gimenez there will still be enough space in the 23 squad for these players to do well.

What Juventus tend to do is to loan/sell young players immediately (with a minimum fee clause that only they can activate) and only recall those who had proven themselves to deserve wearing their shirt.

And I repeat if our 27 year olds cannot keep the defense in order then why the feck are we keeping them? Younger players tend to be stronger, faster and have more fuel in the tank to do the donkey work that require little brains and plenty of supervision to do.

Here is the list of all Juventus young players who are currently on loan

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/juventus-fc/leihspieler/verein/506

 

[Mike09]

Why are you so antagonistic? What don't I get, do elaborate, please? If you re-read the post, you'll realize that what I said was - yes, Fergie did well with a certain template of having an experienced core to then launch the younger players, but that's not always a realistic option (especially in the current market where the best experienced players have gravitated towards clubs that won't let them go, and aren't as readily available from Premier League clubs because of the TV revenues). It's like saying we should sign the equivalents of Drogba (Onze d'Or winner) and Carvalho (UEFA Defender of the Year and Ballon D'Or 9th) to herald the Mourinho era at United without taking the current football climate into context - where players of that caliber aren't readily available at selling clubs like Marseille and Porto. So you might have to decide between building an experienced core by signing experienced players (which can take time, and isn't always realistic because you have to consider the quality, too) or going for players who aren't world class yet, but have the potential to be world class in the near future to become your experienced core - and are quite experienced for their age. Being a middle aged played and 'having experience' isn't some magic recipe if you aren't that good or proven as a potential elite club level player (which is where a lot of people doubt Van Djik and Manolas and the likes as centerback solutions for United - because they don't play for clubs of a similar stature).

Cheers for spelling out that U20 experience is different from United experience. I'd never have figured that out in a million years without your snarky response!

As for the rest of it, I don't believe you're familiar with Giménez because you're making some weird claims regarding him and Van Djik. The former has played 3½ season for a Top 5 club in Europe (which reached the final of the Champions League twice), he has played in the World Cup - becoming their youngest ever player in a World Cup tournament - while retiring Lugano and eliminating England + Italy:

Spoiler

He has played in 2 Copa América tournaments and has 30 caps for a country that's 9th on the FIFA rankings, vs. Van Djik who had 12 for a country that's 21st: https://www.fifa.com/fifa-world-ranking/ranking-table/men/

The points you make regarding Savić (without considering Giménez's injury and differences of opinion with Simeone) can be twisted to - Van Djik couldn't play ahead of defensive juggernauts like De Vrij, Joël Veltman and Martins Indi. As for the PL experience caveat, that has no bearing because most issues for players coming from other leagues revolve around their unsuitability to the combativeness and tempo of English clubs - and Giménez has the perfect athletic skillset + fiery temper to counter that. The Premier League isn't a fantasy land where players from other leagues get lost without exception. Wrt. Van Djik being less risky, he's currently recuperating from a major injury, and while Giménez was in the final of the European Cup after beating Bayern Munich, he was part of a defense that got hammered 6-1 by Liverpool - so I dunno about the risks involved narrative. Especially when Giménez has played for a big European club - which is something Van Djik hasn't done (and Schneiderlin didn't do before moving to United - he was deemed to be a risk-free transfer, too).

Non realistic? Money talk nowdays mate.

You know the problem of how Arsenal couldn't win trophy because they relied on too many young players like RVP, Nasri, Fabregas, Sagna, Song, Senderos etc without leadership in their team.

You know how Sir Alex brought success to United in every generation by building his team with combination of young players and leadership in his team.

You know that we are lacking that leadership in our defense at the moment. And you know that we must solve this problem first.

You know that Gimenez has never prove himself to be able to carry or lead his back four alone in top level without the help from Godin

You know that Bonucci has more experience and proven himself in the world. You know that can Dijk has prove himself to be one of the best centre back in PL.

So you know all of those facts but why are you still against me about Gimenez is more risky signing than the likes of Bonucci, van Dijk and etc?

 

[Mike09]

FFS can you first allow Tuanzebe, Williams and TFM to prove themselves before even mentioning them as squad members? Did we had enough Machedas, Fabio Da Silvas, Chadwicks, Januzajs and Wilsons to acknowledge that the real talk is done on the pitch and not out of it?

I am not saying that we shouldn't give kids a chance. However let them go on loan for 1-2 years and if they do well then they can return and replace those who failed. I am very confident that even if we buy Gimenez there will still be enough space in the 23 squad for these players to do well.

What Juventus tend to do is to loan/sell young players immediately (with a minimum fee clause that only they can activate) and only recall those who had proven themselves to deserve wearing their shirt.

And I repeat if our 27 year olds cannot keep the defense in order then why the feck are we keeping them? Younger players tend to be stronger, faster and have more fuel in the tank to do the donkey work.

Here is the list of all Juventus young players who are currently on loan

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/juventus-fc/leihspieler/verein/506

Hey who said we should rely on Tuanzebe, Williams and Mensah next season??

You are the one who wanted to use them in 2018/2019 if Smalling and Rojo failed to step in their forth season. Remember?? I called it BRILLIANT IDEA that Manchester United should take a risk to rely on three young defenders in 2018/2019.

Nah what Juventus did was that they didn't sign a young midfielder first but sign a leadership in their midfield to solve the problem and build the midfield around him like Pirlo. Next season they started to buy some young midfielder like Pogba.

And you want the opposite, sign young defender like Gimenez for future and let him learn from Smalling and Rojo. If both Smalling and Rojo can't step up their game as a leader again for their forth or fifth season then sell them.

 

[Devil may care]

Bonucci and van Dijk don't belong in the same sentence, one is a proven world class CB who has played in CL semis and a final and won numerous Serie A titles, the other has played a couple of seasons for a mid table team that have done nothing.

 

[Mike09]

No 22 year old will ever take such responsibility especially in a new club and that include Roy Keane. You might not know, but young Roy sent his CV to every EPL club bar Manchester United because he thought he wasn’t good enough. During his early years, Ince and Robson were the most vocal people in midfield not him.

In my opinion, Mourinho is trying to spot people who are leader material. Both Bailly and Gimenez are warriors on the pitch, who wouldn’t take defeat lightly. Gimenez had built quite a reputation at Madrid and that despite partnering his idol in CB. You’d expect a player to tiptoe around their idol and let him conduct the show in the same way Jones/Smalling/Evans used to do when playing alongside Rio/Vidic. Gimenez doesn’t do that.

As a person who had seen enough young talent grow and become leaders I can assure you, that most of the time, leaders aren’t born but made. I can’t help thinking that we’ve got too many boy scouts in our team who are just happy to wear the red shirt and win the odd cup. Most of these players have more medals then rival club legends Steve Gerrard and are happy to settle for that. That needs to change.

And knowing this you still want us to sign a young defender?

Hey just want to let you know once more that we have Smalling and Rojo and we are currently have no leadership in defense even though both are old enough to step up but they have yet shown that they can for their last three seasons. And you still want to keep the problem by signing a player that you know can't take the responsibility.

I don't understand!!!

 

[Mike09]

Bonucci and van Dijk don't belong in the same sentence, one is a proven world class CB who has played in CL semis and a final and won numerous Serie A titles, the other has played a couple of seasons for a mid table team that have done nothing.

They are not. But they have more positives than the young defenders like Lindelof, Gimenez and Laporte.

 

[Devil may care]

They are not. But they have more positives than the young defenders like Lindelof, Gimenez and Laporte.

No, Gimenez has played top CL football and played for a team with actual pressure, van Dijk plays for a side who's main goal is to stay out of the relegation zone, Gimenez has proven he can thrive in big time pressure matches, van Dijk hasn't. I can see your argument for Bonucci but your personal like of van Dijk is clouding your logic IMO.

 

[devilish]

Hey who said we should rely on Tuanzebe, Williams and Mensah next season??

You are the one who wanted to use them in 2018/2019 if Smalling and Rojo failed to step in their forth season. Remember?? I called it BRILLIANT IDEA that Manchester United should take a risk to rely on three young defenders in 2018/2019.

Nah what Juventus did was that they didn't sign a young midfielder first but sign a leadership in their midfield to solve the problem and build the midfield around him like Pirlo. Next season they started to buy some young midfielder like Pogba.

And you want the opposite, sign young defender like Gimenez for future and let him learn from Smalling and Rojo. If both Smalling and Rojo can't step up their game as a leader again for their forth or fifth season then sell them.

I've been following the Serie A for the past two decades and a half. I know the language, the history of most clubs and I follow the news, in Italian. If we want to emulate Juventus that's what they do. They buy kids before they become great talent and then they send them on loan. Most of them are sold. The few that return are Serie A proven players. When Calciopoli hit Juventus hard they were able to bounce from Serie B to 3rd place in the Serie A in just 2 years and that despite having to sell most of the team. How did they achieve that? ie they simply recalled the young players back.

My argument is pretty simple. We currently have two 27 years olds in CD and a 22 year old. If we're adding somebody then we should add somebody whose young. If our 27 year olds need someone to nanny, erm sorry, provide them with leadership then there's no point in keeping them here in the first place. We might as well sell them and use the money to bring an experienced leader too, someone like Bonucci or Godin for example. Considering how hyped English talent are then Smalling should fetch us 40m. I mean, Shitty spent 50m on a defender who cant defend.

 

[devilish]

And knowing this you still want us to sign a young defender?

Hey just want to let you know once more that we have Smalling and Rojo and we are currently have no leadership in defense even though both are old enough to step up but they have yet shown that they can for their last three seasons. And you still want to keep the problem by signing a player that you know can't take the responsibility.

I don't understand!!!

If Gimenez has the talent + the right characteristics needed to become a great leader then we would be stupid not to bid for him especially since his club would be willing to let him go on a decent price (ie he's got a year left in his contract). The last time we tried to sign a CB, Benfica asked us a ridiculous amount of money and Lindelof doesn't have half the experience Gimenez have.

 

[devilish]

No, Gimenez has played top CL football and played for a team with actual pressure, van Dijk plays for a side who's main goal is to stay out of the relegation zone, Gimenez has proven he can thrive in big time pressure matches, van Dijk hasn't. I can see your argument for Bonucci but your personal like of van Dijk is clouding your logic IMO.

You can't win with some people.

I think we're going for Gimenez not only because of his potential, talent and character but also because he's available. Shitty have ruined the market for young defenders when they bought Bambi on ice for 50m which makes it very difficult for us to buy a CB at a realistic price.

We had our fingers burnt in January when Benfica started asking ridiculous amount of money for Lindelof and I wont be surprised if Mou want to avoid a repeat of that. Lets face it, the real money will be spent on the flanks, the DM role and a striker.

 

[Mike09]

If Gimenez has the talent + the right characteristics needed to become a great leader then we would be stupid not to bid for him especially since his club would be willing to let him go on a decent price (ie he's got a year left in his contract). The last time we tried to sign a CB, Benfica asked us a ridiculous amount of money and Lindelof doesn't have half the experience Gimenez have.

He has the talent but such a wasteful if not being polished properly. He hasn't prove himself to show that he's ready to step up!! We broke the transfer fee on Pogba and did we solve the midfield problem? No!! Carrick can't play every single week and can't stay fit due to his age. Every young players need a support from player with leadership mentality. We can't solve our current problem by signingz first if he doesn't have the support from that "type of player".
Juventus won't be able to solve their midfield problem if they signed Pogba first without having a leadership in midfield like Pirlo.

 

[devilish]

He has the talent but such a wasteful if not being polished properly. He hasn't prove himself to show that he's ready to step up!! We broke the transfer fee on Pogba and did we solve the midfield problem? No!! Carrick can't play every single week and can't stay fit due to his age. Every young players need a support from player with leadership mentality. We can't solve our current problem by signingz first if he doesn't have the support from that "type of player".
Juventus won't be able to solve their midfield problem if they signed Pogba first without having a leadership in midfield like Pirlo.

Pogba was never meant to sort our CM problem. No attacking minded CM can ever do well without a top quality DM at his back.

Also you do note that without Pirlo, Juventus could still rely on Marchisio (the club vice-captain) and Vidal right?

 

[Mike09]

No, Gimenez has played top CL football and played for a team with actual pressure, van Dijk plays for a side who's main goal is to stay out of the relegation zone, Gimenez has proven he can thrive in big time pressure matches, van Dijk hasn't. I can see your argument for Bonucci but your personal like of van Dijk is clouding your logic IMO.

Gimenez played in top level +1 with Godin -1, more talent +1

Relegation zone? Well you might want to check what Southampton have been doing.
van Dijk PL proven +1 one of the best centre back in PL right now +1 better physical attribute +1

Bonucci top class centre back +1, experience in top level +1, leadership and winning mentality +2

 

[Mike09]

Pogba was never meant to sort our CM problem. No attacking minded CM can ever do well without a top quality DM at his back.

Also you do note that without Pirlo, Juventus could still rely on Marchisio (the club vice-captain) and Vidal right?

And with Pirlo they are even better.

But that's not the point! The point is Pogba was and is still young midfielder and has yet matured in his games especially in mentality attributes that's why they need someone else to step up and take responsibility. The same thing with Gimenez situation right now. And we are currently lacking of someone who can step up and take the responsibility to be the leader in defense.

 

[giorno]

I've been following the Serie A for the past two decades and a half. I know the language, the history of most clubs and I follow the news, in Italian. If we want to emulate Juventus that's what they do. They buy kids before they become great talent and then they send them on loan. Most of them are sold. The few that return are Serie A proven players. When Calciopoli hit Juventus hard they were able to bounce from Serie B to 3rd place in the Serie A in just 2 years and that despite having to sell most of the team. How did they achieve that? ie they simply recalled the young players back.

They do that now that they dominate. When they finished 7th twice in a row, their solution was to hire Conte, sign Pirlo, and spend a lot of money. They signed a proven Serie A forward in Vucinic, a proven serie A RB in the swiss, and lucked into Vidal. They already had Buffon, Bonucci, Chiellini and Barzagli who it turned out were actually good and badly mismanaged as opposed to shite players. Pogba was kind of a stroke of luck. When they wanted to take the next step, they signed Tevez.

Yes, they invest in young players, but they would NEVER EVER IN A MILLION YEARS go into a season with two mediocre/average CBs as first choice and two 20 year olds as their backup

As for post calciopoli, they finished 3rd straight away because they still had Del Piero, Trezeguet, Buffon, Nedved and Camoranesi. Then they spent a lot of money to sign "proven" players in Tiago, Andrade, Iaquinta and Salihamidzic. They did rely on a few of their youngsters and signed a couple more, but they certainly didn't plan to get back to the top with kids

 

[Varun]

What the feck is this with all the Van Dijk mentions alongside Bonucci to highlight what we actually need?

 

[Clas Sified]

Gimenez played in top level +1 with Godin -1, more talent +1

Relegation zone? Well you might want to check what Southampton have been doing.
van Dijk PL proven +1 one of the best centre back in PL right now +1 better physical attribute +1

Bonucci top class centre back +1, experience in top level +1, leadership and winning mentality +2

You can't actually judge players on some skewed FIFA-like number system.

 

[Devil may care]

You can't win with some people.

I think we're going for Gimenez not only because of his potential, talent and character but also because he's available. Shitty have ruined the market for young defenders when they bought Bambi on ice for 50m which makes it very difficult for us to buy a CB at a realistic price.

We had our fingers burnt in January when Benfica started asking ridiculous amount of money for Lindelof and I wont be surprised if Mou want to avoid a repeat of that. Lets face it, the real money will be spent on the flanks, the DM role and a striker.

You're right about City muddying the waters with their haphazard spending on CB's, we have never gone over £30M for one and I think Jose will be keen to avoid doing so. Gimenez cotnract situation and the fact he's not as in favour as he was also lines up in our favour for a right place, right time deal. I'm not fully sold on him or van Dijk but I certainly wouldn't want us paying £20M more for the latter.

Gimenez played in top level +1 with Godin -1, more talent +1

Relegation zone? Well you might want to check what Southampton have been doing.
van Dijk PL proven +1 one of the best centre back in PL right now +1 better physical attribute +1

Bonucci top class centre back +1, experience in top level +1, leadership and winning mentality +2

I said Southampton's remit every year is to avoid the relegation zone, which it is, that is the extent of the pressure van Dijk faces, on the other hand Gimenez is in a team that competes for La Liga and the CL and it doesn't matter who he played with, he thrived for Atleti and pushed Miranda out of the club by performing in these high level matches against the elite of Europe including Real, Barca and Bayern.

The PL proven stuff has been shown over time to be shaky ground to build an argument on, the standard of the PL is not that great, and van Dijk isn't anymore physically suited than Gimenez, he's taller but Gimenez is faster, more atheltic and built like a bull.

I already said Bonucci is different class to both.

 

[United Pro]

Gimenez played in top level +1 with Godin -1, more talent +1

Relegation zone? Well you might want to check what Southampton have been doing.
van Dijk PL proven +1 one of the best centre back in PL right now +1 better physical attribute +1

Bonucci top class centre back +1, experience in top level +1, leadership and winning mentality +2

That's a weird ranking system you got there, as surely pricing should also be one of the key aspects in any transfer. According to the Telegraph, Chelsea are in the lead to get Van Dijk, with City and Liverpool also in the chase, and Southampton want more than £50m for him. Bonucci also has been rumoured to leave for £50m+, if he were to be sold. Gimenez, on the other hand, reportedly has his release clause dropped to €45m this summer and given that he'll only have 1 year left on his contract, he'll likely be sold for less than that.

Forgetting Bonucci, I'd argue that Van Dijk and Gimenez currently play at a similar level. They both can be very inconsistent, but can be world class on their day. Van Dijk is better on the ball, is taller and has premier league experience (similar to Ferdinand). Meanwhile, Gimenez is more of the Vidic mould in that he's a tougher tackler, isn't bad on the ball and is in fact more experienced at the top level, despite being near 4 years younger.

The question then that should be raised is whether we need a Ferdinand or a Vidic and arguably we need someone who's more composed on the ball with good distribution, in Van Dijk. However, if Gimenez is available we surely have to make a move for him, given that he's a top 3 young CB in the world and he is already performing at a solid level. As good as Van Dijk sounds, the competition for him is huge, which would only increase the transfer fee to ridiculous levels and hence reduce the money we'd have to strengthen in other important areas like CDM, full back, RW/SS (assuming we have a transfer budget).

 

[devilish]

They do that now that they dominate. When they finished 7th twice in a row, their solution was to hire Conte, sign Pirlo, and spend a lot of money. They signed a proven Serie A forward in Vucinic, a proven serie A RB in the swiss, and lucked into Vidal. They already had Buffon, Bonucci, Chiellini and Barzagli who it turned out were actually good and badly mismanaged as opposed to shite players. Pogba was kind of a stroke of luck. When they wanted to take the next step, they signed Tevez.

Yes, they invest in young players, but they would NEVER EVER IN A MILLION YEARS go into a season with two mediocre/average CBs as first choice and two 20 year olds as their backup

As for post calciopoli, they finished 3rd straight away because they still had Del Piero, Trezeguet, Buffon, Nedved and Camoranesi. Then they spent a lot of money to sign "proven" players in Tiago, Andrade, Iaquinta and Salihamidzic. They did rely on a few of their youngsters and signed a couple more, but they certainly didn't plan to get back to the top with kids

In 2006-2007 Juventus lost most of its first team including Thuram, Ibrahimovic, Mutu, Vieira, Cannavaro and Emerson. Most arrivals were Juventus homegrown talent players like De Ceglie, and Giovinco + other players who were on loan (ex Tudor, Palladino and Legrottaglie). This trend became more evident in 2007-2008 (Criscito, Molinaro, Nocerino etc) all of which were partly sold years before only to be rebought back (comproprieta)

Mike said that we don’t need to replace Jones with a young player because we’ve got Tzuanebe. He also said that Juventus wouldn’t have signed Pogba before securing Pirlo, which we both know is bonkers. I told him that Juventus rarely take a kid from the youth academy and throw him to the deep end. Most kids are sent on loan, often for years, before being recalled. Other kids are used in a sort of swap + money deal for better players (Ex Bonucci) or to make a quick buck (Immobile)

 

[Mike09]

You can't actually judge players on some skewed FIFA-like number system.

The number plus are just the amount of positives or benefits. I could make it into dot points instead though. So i don't know how they can be considered as FIFA-like number systems.

 

[Mike09]

That's a weird ranking system you got there, as surely pricing should also be one of the key aspects in any transfer. According to the Telegraph, Chelsea are in the lead to get Van Dijk, with City and Liverpool also in the chase, and Southampton want more than £50m for him. Bonucci also has been rumoured to leave for £50m+, if he were to be sold. Gimenez, on the other hand, reportedly has his release clause dropped to €45m this summer and given that he'll only have 1 year left on his contract, he'll likely be sold for less than that.

Forgetting Bonucci, I'd argue that Van Dijk and Gimenez currently play at a similar level. They both can be very inconsistent, but can be world class on their day. Van Dijk is better on the ball, is taller and has premier league experience (similar to Ferdinand). Meanwhile, Gimenez is more of the Vidic mould in that he's a tougher tackler, isn't bad on the ball and is in fact more experienced at the top level, despite being near 4 years younger.

The question then that should be raised is whether we need a Ferdinand or a Vidic and arguably we need someone who's more composed on the ball with good distribution, in Van Dijk. However, if Gimenez is available we surely have to make a move for him, given that he's a top 3 young CB in the world and he is already performing at a solid level. As good as Van Dijk sounds, the competition for him is huge, which would only increase the transfer fee to ridiculous levels and hence reduce the money we'd have to strengthen in other important areas like CDM, full back, RW/SS (assuming we have a transfer budget).

They are not even ranking. They are just number of benefits that I can see if we sign the players. And given what the requirements that we need in defense, both van Dijk and Bonucci have more benefits than Gimenez.

I don't care about price. I would rather spend extra if it means we can solve the issue of our defense next season.

 

[United Pro]

 

[Celestiale]

As if he would be any upgrade to what we have. Displaced by the great Mr. Savic. No thanks. If a CB, then van Dijk or Aldeweireld.

 

[Revan]

Is @Mike09 Van Dijk? Why is all this obsession with a quite average player?

It is actually weird the Caf's obsession with some random EPL defender who does a good job for some time. Before Van Dijk it was Fonte.

 

[Revan]

As if he would be any upgrade to what we have. Displaced by the great Mr. Savic. No thanks. If a CB, then van Dijk or Aldeweireld.

The same guy whom Atletico sold because he couldn't get a place on his team over Gimenez and Savic?

 

[DWelbz19]

The same guy whom Atletico sold because he couldn't get a place on his team over Gimenez and Savic?

Who since then has proven himself to be the best in his league for two seasons now? Yeah, him.

 

[Mike09]

I said Southampton's remit every year is to avoid the relegation zone, which it is, that is the extent of the pressure van Dijk faces, on the other hand Gimenez is in a team that competes for La Liga and the CL and it doesn't matter who he played with, he thrived for Atleti and pushed Miranda out of the club by performing in these high level matches against the elite of Europe including Real, Barca and Bayern.

The PL proven stuff has been shown over time to be shaky ground to build an argument on, the standard of the PL is not that great, and van Dijk isn't anymore physically suited than Gimenez, he's taller but Gimenez is faster, more atheltic and built like a bull.

I already said Bonucci is different class to both.

I think you have to remember that Gimenez played with Godin. Evans and Smalling looked like top talent defender when they played with Vidic and Rio, but they couldn't step up when both Vidic and Rio left. The big question is can he step up in Manchester United? Can he solve our centre back's problem. From what I can see van Dijk seems to be less risky than Gimenez.

van Dijk reached his level to be one of the best centre back in PL right now without having Godin alongside him. And I have mentioned the benefits or positives of how van Dijk is a less risk signing than Gimenez for next season.

I don't know how do you see Gimenez more athletic and built like a bull when van Dijk is one of the best in his aerial duel in PL and Gimenez isn't and wasn't in La Liga.

 

[DWelbz19]

I know very little of Gimenez but if he's a hothead it wouldn't make much sense. We don't need another young talented CB with it all ahead of him rather than someone ready right now.

 

[Revan]

Who since then has proven himself to be the best in his league for two seasons now? Yeah, him.

Could it be that the quality of the defenders in the league isn't that good in the first place? I mean, the season before Alder became the best defender in the league, that honor was given to a 73 years old John Terry.

I know very little of Gimenez but if he's a hothead it wouldn't make much sense. We don't need another young talented CB with it all ahead of him rather than someone ready right now.

He's a hothead, the closest thing to Vidic right there.

 

[Mike09]

Is @Mike09 Van Dijk? Why is all this obsession with a quite average player?

It is actually weird the Caf's obsession with some random EPL defender who does a good job for some time. Before Van Dijk it was Fonte.

I mentioned a lot of other defenders. And i have mentioned the benefits of having the likes of van Dijk or Bonucci over Gimenez.

 

[Mike09]

Could it be that the quality of the defenders in the league isn't that good in the first place? I mean, the season before Alder became the best defender in the league, that honor was given to a 73 years old John Terry.

He's a hothead, the closest thing to Vidic right there.

Can he step up next season from being a player who always rely on Godin to a player who lead Manchester United defense though?? Because what we lack right now is that we don't have a true leader in defense.

 

[DWelbz19]

Could it be that the quality of the defenders in the league isn't that good in the first place? I mean, the season before Alder became the best defender in the league, that honor was given to a 73 years old John Terry.

It could be. But it could also be a player whose progression isn't/wasn't linear and has hit his peak at a slightly later period than expected.

 

[Revan]

I mentioned a lot of other defenders. And i have mentioned the benefits of having the likes of van Dijk or Bonucci over Gimenez.

That's the problem. It is like saying we should sign Messi or Tadic. It doesn't compute. There is no point on putting them in the same sentence.

Gimenez is more experienced in top level than Van Dijk.

Can he step up next season from being a player who always rely on Godin to a player who lead Manchester United defense though?? Because what we lack right now is that we don't have a true leader in defense.

I have no idea if he can. I also have no idea if Van Dijk can step up and jump 5 levels above, because that is the level we want from our main CB. Gimenez has shown that he can play on that level, Van Dijk hasn't even hinted on that.

 

[Revan]

It could be. But it could also be a player whose progression isn't/wasn't linear and has hit his peak at a slightly later period than expected.

That's a fair point.

However found it a bit ironic that you mentioned Gimenez losing his place to Savic (which looks to come more because of his injury and problems with Simeone rather than him being worse than Savic) in the same sentence you mentioned Alder as a player we need to sign, considering that Alder couldn't even get in the bench of the team which has Gimenez and Savic.

 

[antohan]

Yeah 30 caps for country playing with world class centre back like Godin. Was it enough though? It's just doesn't make any sense that you are keep using world cup U20 level achievement and compared it with EPL level.

Evans played more than 50 games with Rio and Vidic, and when they both left he couldn't step up to be the leader of our defense because our expectation and level are too high for him.

Van Dijk had played more games than Gimenez did in their whole career and he had more experiences in PL. Two big plus why I said he's less risky than Gimenez. Looking forward at our current problems, it makes more sense why we want someone who has more experience in their career, proven in PL and not prone mistakes which what a lot of youngsters tend to do.

I didn't mention the U20 WC there. Full senior World Cup in 2014, started against England's finest and they didn't present him much of a problem.

You are overrating PL experience no end. John Stones has plenty of it, so did Titus Bramble.

 

[Devil may care]

I think you have to remember that Gimenez played with Godin. Evans and Smalling looked like top talent defender when they played with Vidic and Rio, but they couldn't step up when both Vidic and Rio left. The big question is can he step up in Manchester United? Can he solve our centre back's problem. From what I can see van Dijk seems to be less risky than Gimenez.

van Dijk reached his level to be one of the best centre back in PL right now without having Godin alongside him. And I have mentioned the benefits or positives of how van Dijk is a less risk signing than Gimenez for next season.

I don't know how do you see Gimenez more athletic and built like a bull when van Dijk is one of the best in his aerial duel in PL and Gimenez isn't and wasn't in La Liga.

You are really overrating van Dijk mate, he's decent but nothing more, I am not even massively pro Gimenez, I just don't see any huge upside to van Dijk over him. There's zero to prove he has the capacity to step up, Gimenez stepped up at a top club and forced a quality CB into moving in order to get a starting spot.

The PL proven part is irrelevant, there is no less risk as we've seen by the failures of other Southampton players to thrive outside of their releative comfort zone.

I said Gimenez is more athletic because he is, athleticism isn't about height and heading, it's about mobility and agility on the ground. As far as him being built like a bull, he is, I never said van Dijk wasn't a powerful athlete, I simply stated that Gimenez is as well.

 

[Cassidy]

However found it a bit ironic that you mentioned Gimenez losing his place to Savic (which looks to come more because of his injury and problems with Simeone rather than him being worse than Savic) in the same sentence you mentioned Alder as a player we need to sign, considering that Alder couldn't even get in the bench of the team which has Gimenez and Savic.

I was following this conversation thinking the same

 

[devilish]

It could be. But it could also be a player whose progression isn't/wasn't linear and has hit his peak at a slightly later period than expected.

I think the argument is simpler than that. In the past years the top EPL clubs had been blessed with some decent CBs. Vidic and Rio at United, Terry and Cahill at Chelsea, Koscienly at Arsenal, Carragher at Liverpool, Kompany at Shitty etc. These players took first team spots at these top clubs making it more difficult for younger talent to make it at top level. To make matters worse, clubs like United took the best young players available as squad players interrupting the regular first team football they needed for their development.

Pique, recognised this situation pretty early and did his very best to leave United. Others were less lucky.