Jose Gimenez

The only problem is that he probably wouldn't fit well with Bailly. But then, he is a better player than Bailly, and better than any of our defenders. Because of him, Atletico sold Alderweireld which now is the best defender in the league, and that shows how good he is (despite his form this season which seems to come after problems with Simeone).

Get him and Laporte, get rid of Jones and Smalling, that would be the ideal scenario.
 
The only problem is that he probably wouldn't fit well with Bailly. But then, he is a better player than Bailly, and better than any of our defenders. Because of him, Atletico sold Alderweireld which now is the best defender in the league, and that shows how good he is (despite his form this season which seems to come after problems with Simeone).

Get him and Laporte, get rid of Jones and Smalling, that would be the ideal scenario.
Signing two CBs to be our first choice pairing and getting rid of our only two CBs who have more than a seasons worth of experience in the league is far from ideal. Selling and signing one is far better.
 
Get him and Laporte, get rid of Jones and Smalling, that would be the ideal scenario.
Ideal scenario would be to sign an experienced defender who will be responsible for our whole defensive organization. Like Bonucci. Not realistic though
Also, has Laporte been great after his injury?
 
Ideal scenario would be to sign an experienced defender who will be responsible for our whole defensive organization. Like Bonucci. Not realistic though
Also, has Laporte been great after his injury?
Yeah, Bonucci will be even better but Laporte/Gimenez are arguably the two best young CBs in the world.

Yep, I think that he has been very good after the injury.
Signing two CBs to be our first choice pairing and getting rid of our only two CBs who have more than a seasons worth of experience in the league is far from ideal. Selling and signing one is far better.
Rojo has 3 years of experience in the league, Jones is very unreliable fitness-wise in addition to not being that good and Smalling isn't that good too in addition to not having any footballing skills.
 
Mourinho was raving about Tuanzebe beginning of the season, why not shift out both Jones and Smalling, sign Gimenez or similar, and promote Tuanzebe. With Bailly, Rojo and Blind if hes still here we would be well covered.
 
The only problem is that he probably wouldn't fit well with Bailly. But then, he is a better player than Bailly, and better than any of our defenders. Because of him, Atletico sold Alderweireld which now is the best defender in the league, and that shows how good he is (despite his form this season which seems to come after problems with Simeone).

Get him and Laporte, get rid of Jones and Smalling, that would be the ideal scenario.

Why is everyone determined to sell home grown/english players? You need 8 in a squad of 25. If you sell those two and with Rooneys future in doubt you could be left with Lingard, Pogba, Carrick, Shaw, Johnstone and Young. Young is likely to leave as well leaving us 5 HG players from this current squad with Morgan Schneiderlin already gone and Luke Shaw, if he stays, reaching 21.
 
Yeah, Bonucci will be even better but Laporte/Gimenez are arguably the two best young CBs in the world.

Yep, I think that he has been very good after the injury.

Rojo has 3 years of experience in the league, Jones is very unreliable fitness-wise in addition to not being that good and Smalling isn't that good too in addition to not having any footballing skills.
Such turnover still makes absolutely zero sense. Mourinho isn't a fool to play musical statues in such a way. And this is without factoring any issue of homegrown players. I think Jones will go, at most.
 
Laporte/Gimenez are arguably the two best young CBs in the world.
Gimenez has an extremely high reputation on here. What are the reasons for Simeone regularly picking Savic and sometimes Lucas ahead of him this season? Not watching Atletico very often, so it's just something I can't really figure out.
 
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@Revan

That will be another Bailly and another young centre back signing again. No leadership mentality in back four and unable to carry the expectation of Manchester United's defense.

Gimenez might looked good because he plays alongside Godin. Is he good enough to carry our expectation and lead the defense?

And if Laporte is really that good why he never play for France national team.
Do you think a centre back who can't make the current France national team can solve our centre back problem?
 
Yeah, Bonucci will be even better but Laporte/Gimenez are arguably the two best young CBs in the world.

Yep, I think that he has been very good after the injury.

Rojo has 3 years of experience in the league, Jones is very unreliable fitness-wise in addition to not being that good and Smalling isn't that good too in addition to not having any footballing skills.

Not sure that's true anymore. Even if it's harsh, but Laporte hasn't been that good for Athletic since hin injury and before that he seemed to be stagnating as well. He needs to move on quickly IMO, otherwise several players that are eligible for France could overtake him. Umtiti already has and that's just his country.
 
Why is everyone determined to sell home grown/english players? You need 8 in a squad of 25. If you sell those two and with Rooneys future in doubt you could be left with Lingard, Pogba, Carrick, Shaw, Johnstone and Young. Young is likely to leave as well leaving us 5 HG players from this current squad with Morgan Schneiderlin already gone and Luke Shaw, if he stays, reaching 21.
Because they not that good? And because they have already been here for 6-7 seasons and bar half a season from Smalling, they have shown nothing to deserve continuing here.

We are fine in the quota aspect. You don't need 25 players in the first place (currently we have 11), so losing those two (and Rooney and Young) would mean that we would have third keeper, Shaw, Pogba, Lingard and Carrick, meaning that we can have a squad of 22 players, which is one player more than we have now. Then there is of course the possibility of one (or both) of Januzaj and Pereira returning, and the likes of Rashford, TFM and Tuanzebe can play without being registered. So homegrown quota is not a problem at all. Having average not reliable players is a problem.
Gimenez has an extremely high reputation on here. What are the reasons for Simeone regularly picking Savic and sometimes Lucas ahead of him this season? Not watching Atletico very often, so it's just something I can't really figure out.
I think that he had some problems with Simeone, and this season he hasn't played much. He played 47 matches in the league in the last 2 seasons for the team with the best defense in the world, and Simeone sold Alderweireld and Miranda because Gimenez was already better than them.
@Revan

That will be another Bailly and another young centre back signing again. No leadership mentality in back four and unable to carry the expectation of Manchester United's defense.

He is much better than Bailly (or anyone of our defenders, for that matter).

Gimenez might looked good because he plays alongside Godin. Is he good enough to carry our expectation and lead the defense?

And if Laporte is really that good why he never play for France national team.
Do you think a centre back who can't make the current France national team can solve our centre back problem?
For the same reasons Scholes didn't play as midfielder for England.
Not sure that's true anymore. Even if it's harsh, but Laporte hasn't been that good for Athletic since hin injury and before that he seemed to be stagnating as well. He needs to move on quickly IMO, otherwise several players that are eligible for France could overtake him. Umtiti already has and that's just his country.
I think that he has been quite good, but didn't know that he got injured a day or two ago, which means that he'll miss the remaining of the season. And this trend is worrying, especially considering his release clause.
 
Because they not that good? And because they have already been here for 6-7 seasons and bar half a season from Smalling, they have shown nothing to deserve continuing here.

We are fine in the quota aspect. You don't need 25 players in the first place (currently we have 11), so losing those two (and Rooney and Young) would mean that we would have third keeper, Shaw, Pogba, Lingard and Carrick, meaning that we can have a squad of 22 players, which is one player more than we have now. Then there is of course the possibility of one (or both) of Januzaj and Pereira returning, and the likes of Rashford, TFM and Tuanzebe can play without being registered. So homegrown quota is not a problem at all. Having average not reliable players is a problem.

I think that he had some problems with Simeone, and this season he hasn't played much. He played 47 matches in the league in the last 2 seasons for the team with the best defense in the world, and Simeone sold Alderweireld and Miranda because Gimenez was already better than them.


He is much better than Bailly (or anyone of our defenders, for that matter).

Gimenez might looked good because he plays alongside Godin. Is he good enough to carry our expectation and lead the defense?


For the same reasons Scholes didn't play as midfielder for England.

I think that he has been quite good, but didn't know that he got injured a day or two ago, which means that he'll miss the remaining of the season. And this trend is worrying, especially considering his release clause.
Laporte has been called into the French squad just yesterday for the Spain friendly.
 
@Revan

That will be another Bailly and another young centre back signing again. No leadership mentality in back four and unable to carry the expectation of Manchester United's defense.

Gimenez might looked good because he plays alongside Godin. Is he good enough to carry our expectation and lead the defense?

And if Laporte is really that good why he never play for France national team.
Do you think a centre back who can't make the current France national team can solve our centre back problem?

A young defender will replace Jones whose career was ravaged by injuries.

If we need an experienced CB, then that means that we don't need Smalling anymore. At 27 years of age, he should be leading our defense.
 
You're right. I misread an article about his old injury.
You had me worried then.:lol: I think with Laporte the seriousness of the injury could have been playing on his mind earlier in the season. It could be next season before he is back to his best once he has got his confidence back. I think with leg breaks it can undermine a players confidence a little. He is getting outshone by his CB partner Yeray Alvarez a little bit, another good youngster coming through at Bilbao.
 
@Revan

That will be another Bailly and another young centre back signing again. No leadership mentality in back four and unable to carry the expectation of Manchester United's defense.

Gimenez might looked good because he plays alongside Godin. Is he good enough to carry our expectation and lead the defense?

And if Laporte is really that good why he never play for France national team.
Do you think a centre back who can't make the current France national team can solve our centre back problem?

You mean Evans and Vidic, they flush out their memory every now and then in this forum. With young cb's it's easier to judge them without a world-class cb leading and masking some of their weaknesses. I am not he is not good but that he could end up looking like he needs a leader next to him like Smalling and Jones do
 
I've been following the kid since before he moved to Atlético. We had a few drafts on here where I argued he would be world class and a generational talent at CB before he even kicked a ball for them (easily done, he was shutting out prime Falcao for the NT without a single La Liga appearance to his name).

He is very passionate and that makes him rash at times. He can lose his head at times, and I've no doubt Godín has a calming influence on him.

I'd argue he is better than any of our defenders, but we would still need that cool experienced head more than we need what he brings to the table.
 
One of the best young CBs in the world. He's lost his place to Savic though and i think there's a good possibility he might leave this summer. Atleti also have Lucas Hernandez, another extremely talented CB that's worth looking into.
 
A young defender will replace Jones whose career was ravaged by injuries.

If we need an experienced CB, then that means that we don't need Smalling anymore. At 27 years of age, he should be leading our defense.

I don't think you read my post. It's not only about experience. It's also about having that leadership mentality in back four and able to carry the expectation of Manchester United's defense. We already have Bailly as a young defender. Tuanzebe is also young defender.
 
If we signed him the Phil Jones comparisons would be endless. He can be rash and has had his share of injury problems.
 
@Revan

"Better" isn't enough. We need someone who is good enough to solve our defense problem. Not only they need to be good in defending but also they need to have a leadership mentality to carry the expectation of a top club like Vidic, Rio, Stam, Bruce.

Scholes got into England national team. Never mind play, Laporte is not even in the squad.
 
@Revan

"Better" isn't enough. We need someone who is good enough to solve our defense problem. Not only they need to be good in defending but also they need to have a leadership mentality to carry the expectation of a top club like Vidic, Rio, Stam, Bruce.

Scholes got into England national team. Never mind play, Laporte is not even in the squad.
He is as from yesterday. It is hard to judge with some countries squads and how hard it is to get into them as the depth in some departments is so deep. Says a lot when Jermaine Defoe is recalled and some are saying he could go to next years world cup. Some of the players who get in the England squad would not get near other countries squads.
 
He is as from yesterday. It is hard to judge with some countries squads and how hard it is to get into them as the depth in some departments is so deep. Says a lot when Jermaine Defoe is recalled and some are saying he could go to next years world cup. Some of the players who get in the England squad would not get near other countries squads.

I don't know if he actually made the top 23 because Deschamps was pretty much called more than 30 players to join France national team training.

This is not about judging players wether they are good or a bad player or defender. If you can't play and lead the defense of France National Team, I can't see the player to be the solution of our defense next season.

Do we have young defenders? Yes!
Do we have someone who can step up and be a leader in our defense? No!
 
I don't think you read my post. It's not only about experience. It's also about having that leadership mentality in back four and able to carry the expectation of Manchester United's defense. We already have Bailly as a young defender. Tuanzebe is also young defender.

If at 27 smalling cant act as a leader then its only fair to replace him with someone who will. We dont need 27 year old defenders with the brains of an 18 year old and the leadership of a chihuahua

Regarding tuanzebe he needs at least 1-2 season of first team football to become a MUQ defender

Id say add gimenez, get rid of jones and send tuanzebe and tfm on loan. If smalling steps up and start playing as an experienced defender he is then fine. If not then hopefully tfm and tuanzebe can replace him.
 
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If at 27 smalling cant act as a leader then its only fair to replace him with someone who will. We dont need 27 year old defenders with the brains of an 18 year old and the leadership of a chihuahua

Its time for him to step up. Hes not playing non league football anymore

And your point is????

That's why I already said Gimenez and Laporte aren't the solution.
But you keep saying we must sign young defenders like Laporte or Gimenez and rely on Smalling as an "experience" and "leadership" even though you already know that Smalling isn't in the category to step up to be one.
 
And your point is????

That's why I already said Gimenez and Laporte aren't the solution. But you keep saying we must sign young defenders like Laporte or Gimenez and rely on Smalling as an "experience" and "leadership" even though you already know that Smalling isn't in the category to step up to be one.

I updated the post. Hopefully you have a better idea of what i have in mind
 
I updated the post. Hopefully you have a better idea of what i have in mind

So get rid Jones. Add one more young defender which means we will have two young defenders and have another season by taking the same risk like the previous seasons with two young defenders and two defenders who haven't step up to be the leader in United's defense?

If Smalling couldn't step up then we might have another poor season again and you expect another young defender like Mensah or Tuanzebe to replace him the next following season? It means you want us to have three young defenders in 2018/2019 season?

BRILLIANT IDEA!!
 
So get rid Jones. Add one more young defender which means we will have two young defenders and have another season by taking the same risk like the previous seasons with two young defenders and two defenders who haven't step up to be the leader in United's defense?

If Smalling couldn't step up then we might have another poor season again and you expect another young defender like Mensah or Tuanzebe to replace him the next following season? It means you want us to have three young defenders in 2018/2019 season?

BRILLIANT IDEA!!

How old should a top quality defender be to be able to take control of a defense? Rio became the most expensive defender and our anchor in defence at age 24. Stam did it at 25, same as Vidic. The latter two had never played in a top league before. I am avoiding the child prodigies, people like Maldini or Baresi who were mature from day 1.

Assuming we sell Jones and bring Gimenez then our defense would have Rojo (28), Smalling (28), Gimenez (22) and Bailly (22). That's quite a lot of experience in there. If Smalling and Rojo can't transmit that experience to the team then WTF are they doing there in the first place?
 
How old should a top quality defender be to be able to take control of a defense? Rio became the most expensive defender and our anchor in defence at age 24. Stam did it at 25, same as Vidic. The latter two had never played in a top league before. I am avoiding the child prodigies, people like Maldini or Baresi who were mature from day 1.

Assuming we sell Jones and bring Gimenez then our defense would have Rojo (28), Smalling (28), Gimenez (22) and Bailly (22). That's quite a lot of experience in there. If Smalling and Rojo can't transmit that experience to the team then WTF are they doing there in the first place?

It's not about how old or the ages of the players. It's about what they have done because that shows the evidence that they can do it and step up. But have they done it?
Should we take a bigger risk to sign young defender again like Bailly when we have this problem ever since we lost Rio and Vidic and the others defenders have failed to step up.

Or should we take the smaller risk to sign top centre back who can lead our defense?

My answer is take smaller risk to sign top centre back who can lead our defense.
 
My answer is take smaller risk to sign top centre back who can lead our defense.
Who? I can't for the life of me pinpoint anyone that is gettable and ticks all the boxes. There are no Ferdinands out there.
 
Who? I can't for the life of me pinpoint anyone that is gettable and ticks all the boxes. There are no Ferdinands out there.

Does he have to be Ferdinand's level?

Godin, van Dijk, Bonnuci, Manolas, and etc. You can name more proven PL and top players who are less risky than Gimenez, Laporte and Lindelof.
 
Does he have to be Ferdinand's level?

Godin, van Dijk, Bonnuci, Manolas, and etc. You can name more proven PL and top players who are less risky than Gimenez, Laporte and Lindelof.

Ferdinand is the blueprint of what we need.

Godín is sadly past his peak and never had an interest in the PL anyway.

Manolas I haven't seen that much of but doesn't strike me as a better option than what we have (is he any better on the ball? I think that is key).

Van Dijk is in the PL and attainable, but takes us back to potential over reality. I could be wrong, mind, but the point remains there's no clear guaranteed improvement there.

Bonucci is the obvious one ticking all boxes but everyone wants him as a result (and is probably more critical to City or willing to join Conte). Can try, but Mourinho himself said he won't get tied up all Summer in a saga like that would be.
 
Ferdinand is the blueprint of what we need.

Godín is sadly past his peak and never had an interest in the PL anyway.

Manolas I haven't seen that much of but doesn't strike me as a better option than what we have (is he any better on the ball? I think that is key).

Van Dijk is in the PL and attainable, but takes us back to potential over reality. I could be wrong, mind, but the point remains there's no clear guaranteed improvement there.

Bonucci is the obvious one ticking all boxes but everyone wants him as a result (and is probably more critical to City or willing to join Conte). Can try, but Mourinho himself said he won't get tied up all Summer in a saga like that would be.

And they are far better solution of our defender problem than someone young and can't play for France National team, someone young and got dropped by Savic and no PL experience, and the last one is someone young plays for Benfica who is obviously worse and more risky than the other two.

This isn't about "clear guaranteed" every signing are risky. But signing those kind of players are less risky than signing Laporte, Gimenez and Lindelof, and that's why I went for player like van Dijk. I have mentioned this before in my previous post, surely you can't miss my last sentence from my previous post.
 
It's not about how old or the ages of the players. It's about what they have done because that shows the evidence that they can do it and step up. But have they done it?
Should we take a bigger risk to sign young defender again like Bailly when we have this problem ever since we lost Rio and Vidic and the others defenders have failed to step up.

Or should we take the smaller risk to sign top centre back who can lead our defense?

My answer is take smaller risk to sign top centre back who can lead our defense.

If at age 27-28, Smalling and Rojo cannot step up then we might replace them with someone whose younger, quicker and has the potential to actually become world class defenders. Older players's value is depreciating season after season. They are kept because they are class and their experience is transmitted to the rest. If that is not happening then there's no reason for them to be kept.

I'd say, lets start step by step. Remove Jones and add Gimenez and see what happens. Meanwhile send our current youngsters on loan. Maybe such transfer would be the kick needed for either Rojo or Smalling to step up. If not, then we might sell them next season and either replace them with the young talent or with an old head
 
If at age 27-28, Smalling and Rojo cannot step up then we might replace them with someone whose younger, quicker and has the potential to actually become world class defenders. Older players's value is depreciating season after season. They are kept because they are class and their experience is transmitted to the rest. If that is not happening then there's no reason for them to be kept.

I'd say, lets start step by step. Remove Jones and add Gimenez and see what happens. Meanwhile send our current youngsters on loan. Maybe such transfer would be the kick needed for either Rojo or Smalling to step up. If not, then we might sell them next season and either replace them with the young talent or with an old head

You and me know what missing in our defense but you are still being stubborn to stick with buying youngster and have faith in players who haven't step up for 3 years +. And again back to my previous posts, if Smalling and Rojo failed to step up, you want the youngster to step so you want to see us relying on 3 very young centre backs like Gimenez, Bailly, and Tuanzebe in 2018/2019?

BRILLIANT IDEA!
 
And they are far better solution of our defender problem than someone young and can't play for France National team, someone young and got dropped by Savic and no PL experience, and the last one is someone young plays for Benfica who is obviously worse and more risky than the other two.

This isn't about "clear guaranteed" every signing are risky. But signing those kind of players are less risky than signing Laporte, Gimenez and Lindelof, and that's why I went for player like van Dijk. I have mentioned this before in my previous post, surely you can't miss my last sentence from my previous post.
Other than Bonucci they are all gambles. Van Dijk has PL experience going for him but it seems to me you are significantly underrating Giménez. He has 30 caps, one World Cup, two Copas and an U20 WC runner up under his belt.
 
How old should a top quality defender be to be able to take control of a defense? Rio became the most expensive defender and our anchor in defence at age 24. Stam did it at 25, same as Vidic. The latter two had never played in a top league before. I am avoiding the child prodigies, people like Maldini or Baresi who were mature from day 1.

Assuming we sell Jones and bring Gimenez then our defense would have Rojo (28), Smalling (28), Gimenez (22) and Bailly (22). That's quite a lot of experience in there. If Smalling and Rojo can't transmit that experience to the team then WTF are they doing there in the first place?

That didint happened actually. Again can you point out players as good as Rio or Vidic who are available now ?
 
I'm not convinced we need to spend mega money on a central defender but it would be nice to get someone very good next to Bailly. I think Bailly is a very good defender, he did have a poor game against St.Etienne but appart from that he looks very good.
 
You and me know what missing in our defense but you are still being stubborn to stick with buying youngster and have faith in players who haven't step up for 3 years +. And again back to my previous posts, if Smalling and Rojo failed to step up, you want the youngster to step so you want to see us relying on 3 very young centre backs like Gimenez, Bailly, and Tuanzebe in 2018/2019?

BRILLIANT IDEA!



So let’s say we replace Jones with an experienced defender. There aren’t many top experienced CBs in the UK, so we have to sign it from another league. Currently, the Ferrari of experienced defenders is Bonucci, he’s 29 and he’s got issues with Allegri which makes him available for bid from us. Let’s say, we spend 30m-40m to get him here.

Mourinho has other players in mind so that signing will pretty much suck up all the budget allotted for CD. With Bonucci, Rojo, Bailly and Smalling in the team, we would still have to loan our youths out. Therefore Bonucci’s experience will be ‘wasted’ around players of his same age. In 4-5 years time we would need a total revamp in defence. Bonucci, Rojo, Smalling and Valencia would be too old to do the job.

If we take that route then we might as well sell Smalling and Rojo and bring someone younger for example Gimenez. Bonucci’s experience would be invested on top quality defenders who have the potential to one day lead Manchester United’s defense. TFM, Williams and Tuanzebe would remain at United and fight for the 4th defender role.

I confess that I like that route, although I do acknowledge the risks of it.

a- We would be changing a lot of staff in a critical role which might have an impact on the team. Both Bonucci and Gimenez will need time to settle down in the EPL which would leave us a bit light in CB.

b- Young defenders need plenty of game time to develop. I lost count of how many times I actually swore at a young Gary Neville before he learnt not to dive in tackles inside the box. Shadowing isn't always great and I wonder how Smalling-Jones would have developed if they invested their early part of career playing week in week out instead of shadowing Rio-Vidic. Keane is a classic example of what regular first team football can do to young defenders.

c- while I am not a big fan of Smalling and Rojo myself, I do acknowledge that United has no DM, which leaves the defence vulnerable.

Taking that in consideration, then maybe the wisest strategy would be to make changes on a slower tempo. We bring in Gimenez, a top quality young RB to shadow Valencia and a top quality DM (I am a big fan of Kessie) and see the effect these players would have in defence. Who knows, maybe Gimenez’s signing would be the wake-up call needed for Smalling to step up. Currently he has little competition for his first team spot (Rojo is average, Jones is always injured) but that would surely change, with Gimenez in the squad.

The year after we can re-assess the defence and see what we need. Had Smalling/Rojo stepped up? Is Gimenez and Bailly good enough to lead the defence? How did Tuanzebe and go faired on loan? Gimenez and Bailly would be nearly 24 at that stage, which means there’s some possibility that we won’t need an experienced head around.
 
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