Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Classical Mechanic said:
By the time the next election comes round they will have realised (surely) that the Leave campaign promises on immigration were out and out lies.
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I think it depends on when the election is, if it's straight after the new Tory leader is installed and before the exit is negotiated, there's nothing to stop them just lying about it again. Plus, whatever Boris and his bunch do, Farage will always be around to stoke anti-immigrant sentiment with whatever UKIP now becomes. It'll be perfect for his "establishment stitch-up" routine.

That's not to say I don't think there's a way for the centre-left to salvage a way forward out of all this, I just think it requires a longer game than purely deciding to ignore the referendum result.
 
Ubik said:
I think it depends on when the election is, if it's straight after the new Tory leader is installed and before the exit is negotiated, there's nothing to stop them just lying about it again. Plus, whatever Boris and his bunch do, Farage will always be around to stoke anti-immigrant sentiment with whatever UKIP now becomes. It'll be perfect for his "establishment stitch-up" routine.

That's not to say I don't think there's a way for the centre-left to salvage a way forward out of all this, I just think it requires a longer game than purely deciding to ignore the referendum result.
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There is definitely a big gaping space for a credible 'progressive' party though.
 
Damien said:
He was planning on running for Mayor of Greater Manchester too anyway so even if he doesn't get leadership he probably sees this as best way to appeal himself to voters for when he goes for Mayor. Most of the constituencies in Greater Manchester voted for Leave though but he should still get it.
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Yeah, I think this is probably the likeliest explanation actually. By the looks of it, the potential candidates have a meeting with the NEC in the coming days, doubtful he wants to rock the boat.
 
Damien said:
What Ubik is saying is that Labour voters in previously 'safe' Labour seats voted for Leave. Shows they're already losing a lot of support and to promise to overturn the referendum result would result in losing even more.
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Give it 4 months as the fallout of Brexit really bites and many of those will no longer be leavers.

In order to wrestle back control from Conservatives after so long in the deep wilderness I think Labour'd do what it takes.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
There is definitely a big gaping space for a credible 'progressive' party though.
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Absolutely, just think it's hard to see how we get to it with the current state of the party system. Realignments do happen in politics and this referendum is a big enough event to trigger one, but it would be difficult to put together and even more difficult to prevent breaking apart. We'll have to wait and see I suppose, first step is for Labour to actually become a credible alternative government...
 
The disconnect between leadership (and other potential leadership) and the base is huge in Labour, bigger than for the UKIP, SNP, Lib Dems, and the Conservatives are split within both the base and leadership.
 
It sums up all quarters of the Labour Party that on the weekend following David Cameron throwing the hopes and futures of the young and educated in this country under a bus, and then shooting himself in the head, Labour still manages to dominate the headlines by loudly shitting itself to death next to him.
 
The sooner this guy gets the hook, the better. We need a strong opposition party to keep the Tories in check and potentially reverse the madness going on in the country.
 
I'm sick of these politicking cnuts within the party, they're no better than Boris. Several of them were prominent members of the remain campaign and clearly failed to win over the Labour voters so I hope they rule themselves out.
 
Ubik said:
It's an odd situation - it's completely undeniable at this point that Corbyn has no control over the party he leads in parliament. For any other major political party leader in history that is an unsustainable position to be in. It brought Thatcher down. It brought Blair down. It would've brought Brown down if it had got to that stage, but they managed to nip it in the bud (it looks like Corbyn tried to do this with Benn but failed, because Brown at least had a wide support base and highly competent aides).

I'd agree that if Corbyn is blocked from the ballot, it's not good, and I say that as someone who thinks he's an utter disaster. I think the strategy is instead to get him to resign due to his position being untenable.

EDIT - This from Zoe Williams makes me think he really can't survive - https://www.theguardian.com/comment...my-corbyn-labour-remain-election?CMP=soc_3156 - one of the few in the press that would defend him at all times.
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Can't see him resigning mainly because he's still got the backing of the unions and the membership. That alone will be enough for him to at least think it's worth carrying on until an early election or worst case be there when the party splits. Have to image(Although it's just a guess on my part) Corbyn and maybe more importantly the Unions(The members will go else where if Corbyn leaves)see this as a battle for the party future and more important than an upcoming election.

If Labour MPs can successfully resign a Left wing(Still think this part is massively important) Labour Leader who recently got elected with one of the biggest mandates in British history and backed heavily by the unions that's quite a win for the MPs and if they can do once then what's stopping them doing it again and again and again.

As for the Zoe Williams article it's decent but guardian writers(Well one but I'm sticking to it as it help my point) have a history of jumping the ship when the going gets tough.

Edit- I said the word important at lot there.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Few people on my twitter suggesting that thats why Labour have moved so fast to oust Corbyn, because he's going to call for war crime charges for Blair.
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I think it's playing a part, but in no way wholly responsible. That referendum was a gift to many Labour MPs who've wanted to oust Corbyn since he became leader (more or less).

Have heard he will call for war crime charges as well, though.
 
I'd love to know who they think will win back all the disenfranchised voters who voted Leave. These defectors have all been calling them idiots and denying immigration is an issue.

But yeah we need a 'strong' leader who can throw out zingers against the tories at PMQS
 
Shadow attorney general gone now. Another one that was in "core group positive".
 
Smores said:
I'd love to know who they think will win back all the disenfranchised voters who voted Leave. These defectors have all been calling them idiots and denying immigration is an issue.

But yeah we need a 'strong' leader who can throw out zingers against the tories at PMQS
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They do what every recent center/right Labour MP has done in the past which is to pandering to the disenfranchised voter by saying mildly pointless tough talking statements while appearing slightly xenophobic(Labour immigration coffee cup comes to mind)while at the same time giving a cheeky wink to the center/left which says ''come on you know we don't mean any of this, it's just we have to say to appeal to these idiots to get their votes'', thus appealing to no one.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Few people on my twitter suggesting that thats why Labour have moved so fast to oust Corbyn, because he's going to call for war crime charges for Blair.
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If Corbyn really is planning to call for war crime charges then he's a bigger idiot than even I thought.
 
This will only disenfranchise the young even further. The one section of society to have solidly backed Remain and still be largely pro-Labour. Not that the alternative is any great shakes, but it's quite genuinely a literal omnishambles now.
 
Mockney said:
This will only disenfranchise the young even further. The one section of society to have solidly backed Remain and still be largely pro-Labour. Not that the alternative is any great shakes, but it's quite genuinely a literal omnishambles now.
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Why would a coup that leads to a genuinely pro remain Labour Party disenfranchise the young? If they are switched on as everyone says (most young people didn't vote) they will realise that Corbyn has let them down badly. Personally I think this whole mess is an opportunity to form a credible opposition now the Tories are really on the ropes.
 
Mockney said:
This will only disenfranchise the young even further. The one section of society to have solidly backed Remain and still be largely pro-Labour. Not that the alternative is any great shakes, but it's quite genuinely a literal omnishambles now.
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Not sure why?
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Why would a coup that leads to a genuinely pro remain Labour Party disenfranchise the young? If they are switched on as everyone says (most young people didn't vote) they will realise that Corbyn has let them down badly. Personally I think this whole mess is an opportunity to form a credible opposition now the Tories are really on the ropes.
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Because they voted him in. With a record number of new memberships in the wake of the GE. And in a climate where Brexit was in part a (misguided) democratic revolt against the political elites and their perceived rejection of the average voter's views, I don't see how the Labour Party seeming to do the exact same thing, to one of the few sections of society that still largely support them, is going to suddenly ring in a new dawn of cohesive harmony. They never forgave Clegg for his "betrayal"

However much you/I/we may personally agree with ousting Corbyn, ideologically (or even tactically) the timing and manner of it looks terrible. Especially as this should be the perfect time to be grilling the backtracking bullshit of Gove, BJ & Farage, rather than creating another, self made, internal crisis, and ESPECIALLY (all caps) as there's no real stand out alternative to ring in this supposed new, strong, Labour dawn. Again, omni-shambles.
 
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Love the way Hilary Benn said:
Corbyn is a decent man, but he's not a leader
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hmmmm what would i prefer a decent man who may not be the best leader, or a great leader who isnt a decent man? a decent man every time!
we've had loads of people who have been good leaders in charge of this country, but far to few decent men!
 
Mockney said:
This will only disenfranchise the young even further. The one section of society to have solidly backed Remain and still be largely pro-Labour. Not that the alternative is any great shakes, but it's quite genuinely a literal omnishambles now.
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My friends who are Corbyn supporters say they will not forgive him for his no show during the referendum campaign.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
Love the way Hilary Benn said:


hmmmm what would i prefer a decent man who may not be the best leader, or a great leader who isnt a decent man? a decent man every time!
we've had loads of people who have been good leaders in charge of this country, but far to few decent men!
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A decent man who isn't a leader will never get elected so the point is moot.
 
Adisa said:
My friends who are Corbyn supporters say they will not forgive him for his no show during the referendum campaign.
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Then there's no reason to block him from another leadership ballot. Another vote is fine (albeit chaotic) but trying to force his outright resignation isn't, IMO. At the very least from a PR point of view.
 
Mockney said:
Then there's no reason to block him from another leadership ballot. Another vote is fine (albeit chaotic) but trying to force his outright resignation isn't, IMO. At the very least from a PR point of view.
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I still think he will win but with a much smaller margin.
 
Xeno said:
Corbyn may actually be so principled he'll fall on his sword for the good of the party.
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Part of me thinks so. I don't think he'd want to destroy his party out of spite...which would ironically benefit his opponents.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
Love the way Hilary Benn said:


hmmmm what would i prefer a decent man who may not be the best leader, or a great leader who isnt a decent man? a decent man every time!
we've had loads of people who have been good leaders in charge of this country, but far to few decent men!
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If go as far as saying he's a decent man but not a decent politician.

He's more suited to a protest party than the main opposition.

It's a sadder reflection of politics than the man himself.
 
Mockney said:
Because they voted him in. With a record number of new memberships in the wake of the GE. And in a climate where Brexit was in part a (misguided) democratic revolt against the political elites and their perceived rejection of the average voter's views, I don't see how the Labour Party seeming to do the exact same thing, to one of the few sections of society that still largely support them, is going to suddenly ring in a new dawn of cohesive harmony. They never forgave Clegg for his "betrayal"

However much you/I/we may personally agree with ousting Corbyn, ideologically (or even tactically) the timing and manner of it looks terrible. Especially as this should be the perfect time to be grilling the backtracking bullshit of Gove, BJ & Farage, rather than creating another, self made, internal crisis, and ESPECIALLY (all caps) as there's no real stand out alternative to ring in this supposed new, strong, Labour dawn. Again, omni-shambles.
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I doubt Corbyn could grill a sandwich
 
Pexbo said:
It's a sadder reflection of politics than the man himself.
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Absolutely. A combination of the press and the public's love of a 'polished' politico. You have to succumb to populist measures to stand a chance.
 
Pexbo said:
If go as far as saying he's a decent man but not a decent politician.

He's more suited to a protest party than the main opposition.

It's a sadder reflection of politics than the man himself.
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your right on all accounts, but its still sad that men like that can't be great politicians.

i don't even nessicssarly agree with all his politics, but he at least seems to be honest, genuinely care and be in politics to try and better the country. how many politicians ever can you say that about?

its just a shame that politics has become about theatre, catchy slogans, looking and sounding the right way... if their was more men like him in parliament, both on the left and the right we would have a far better country.
 
Dobba said:
Nope, she opposed Blair's clusterfeck in Iraq and hasn't spent the time since trying to block investigations into it
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Wanted us to go into Syria and oust Assad, though.
 
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