Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

[711]

Remember seeing it on tv and it looked incredible and very moving. Although with that said Corbyn is right it's essentially a pretty tribute that detracts from the issues of the first World War.

Both my grandfathers died young because of first world war injuries. My elder sister remembers them, and to her it's not about 'issues' it's simply remembrance. Talk about the issues by all means, they're important, but don't forget to some people the sadness is still real.

 

[Ubik]

I'm not quite sure what there is to commemorate about the First World War, other than the mass slaughter of millions of young men and women

...I'm beginning to come around to the view that he's just genuinely thick.

 

[Chorley1974]

...I'm beginning to come around to the view that he's just genuinely thick.

Or simply doesn't care about the feelings of the general public.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

I think we should also remember that Keir Hardie apart from being a great man in many many ways was a great opponent of the first world war, and next year the government is apparently proposing to spend shedloads of money commemorating the first world war. I'm not quite sure what there is to commemorate about the first world war, other than the mass slaughter of the millions of young men and women, mainly men, on the Western front and many other places. It was a war of the declining empires and anyone that even read or dipped into Hobson's great work of the early part of the 20th century written post-Boer war [?] first world war as a war between monopolies fighting in our free markets, and that's essentially what the first world war was

Quote is nearly three years old, but that's a slightly more unabridged version. Context is paramount.

 

[bishblaize]

Quote is nearly three years old, but that's a slightly more unabridged version. Context is paramount.

How does that change the understood meaning?

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

How does that change the understood meaning?

Changes it quite considerably when you consider the wider context (the location of the speech, the date, the audience, and the theme).

 

[sun_tzu]

Quote is nearly three years old, but that's a slightly more unabridged version. Context is paramount.

That's a Corbyn quote... He actually said sheadloads of money?

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

That's a Corbyn quote... He actually said sheadloads of money?

Yep.

Not a war to be commemorated really -- a condemnation would be more appropriate.

 

[Ubik]

Yep.

Not a war to be commemorated really -- a condemnation would be more appropriate.

Jesus christ, it's the deaths that are commemorated, it's not a celebration of the war ffs. That he seems to think that's what November 11th is about shows how contemptibly clueless he is about the country.

 

[bishblaize]

Yep.

Not a war to be commemorated really -- a condemnation would be more appropriate.

I dont think the word commemorate means what you're implying. It doesnt mean celebrate, it means to honour or respectfully remember. Why would we not commemorate the first WW?

Also, Id already seen the video, it makes no difference to the meaning.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Jesus christ, it's the deaths that are commemorated, it's not a celebration of the war ffs. That he seems to think that's what November 11th is about shows how contemptibly clueless he is about the country.

Obviously it's the deaths that are commemorated, but the manner in which they were brought about is what should be condemned.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

I dont think the word commemorate means what you're implying. It doesnt mean celebrate, it means to honour or respectfully remember. Why would we not commemorate the first WW?

Also, Id already seen the video, it makes no difference to the meaning.

I know what commemorate means, also have an idea of how these public commemorations tend to play out. Queen lays down some flowers, everyone looks sad -- no one mentions the irony of monarchy commemorating the people whom their ancestors sent to their graves.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

If you've seen the video, how can 25mins of quite contextually relevant material not alter the meaning?

 

[bishblaize]

I know what commemorate means, also have an idea of how these public commemorations tend to play out. Queen lays down some flowers, everyone looks sad -- no one mentions the irony of monarchy commemorating the people whom their ancestors sent to their graves.

That's a pretty poor reason not to want to reflect on a war that killed almost 40M people.

As for context issue, because my understanding of it didn't change before and after watching the video.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

That's a pretty poor reason not to want to reflect on a war that killed almost 40M people.

As for context issue, because my understanding of it didn't change before and after watching the video.

I disagree. An unelected monarch commemorating millions of dead people who were killed largely because of unelected monarchs is a bit distasteful imo.

Your view wasn't even changed negatively? I mean, the video was uploaded by the Communist Party -- surely something about the 25mins of the video would have changed your views? Even if they hardened against Corbyn.

 

[Ubik]

Obviously it's the deaths that are commemorated, but the manner in which they were brought about is what should be condemned.

Are you seriously saying people don't look back on the First World War in a negative light?

But obviously because it was at an event sponsored by the Communist Party's newspaper means it was a perfectly normal thing to say...

 

[bishblaize]

I disagree. An unelected monarch commemorating millions of dead people who were killed largely because of unelected monarchs is a bit distasteful imo.

Your view wasn't even changed negatively? I mean, the video was uploaded by the Communist Party -- surely something about the 25mins of the video would have changed your views? Even if they hardened against Corbyn.

My view on the meaning of the quoted text didn't change, which is what we're talking about.

 

[Sweet Square]

Both my grandfathers died young because of first world war injuries. My elder sister remembers them, and to her it's not about 'issues' it's simply remembrance. Talk about the issues by all means, they're important, but don't forget to some people the sadness is still real.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't remember those's who lost their lives. But on a national level I can't see why there can't be both remembrance and talk of the issues(Well causes of the war)or more to the point that Corbyn is making why the war should commemorated at all. I would very much agree with Mciahel Goodman view

I know what commemorate means, also have an idea of how these public commemorations tend to play out. Queen lays down some flowers, everyone looks sad -- no one mentions the irony of monarchy commemorating the people whom their ancestors sent to their graves.

 

[Untied]

Jesus christ, it's the deaths that are commemorated, it's not a celebration of the war ffs. That he seems to think that's what November 11th is about shows how contemptibly clueless he is about the country.

I always seem to end up responding/debating with you (sorry for that), but what November 11 has come to mean is quite open to question.

But the British public is pretty militaristic so you will struggle to get elected espousing a view that runs entirely counter to that (Stop the War).

 

[Untied]

As someone who visited the poppy installation at the Tower of London (it got the tone just right), i think it is a great pity that Corbyn couldn't see beyond his politics on the matter.

I didn't visit it, but I do know it raised money for Help for Heroes (amongst others), which doesn't set a particularly positive tone.

 

[Cheesy]

He really needs to think about he words stuff before he says it.

And yeah, the commemorations are generally for those who have been killed in conflict, as opposed to out of a support for war, or the methods involved. I think most of us can accept that World War I was largely a needless atrocity, but we can accept that while respecting those who were killed in conflict.

 

[711]

I'm not saying that people shouldn't remember those's who lost their lives. But on a national level I can't see why there can't be both remembrance and talk of the issues(Well causes of the war)or more to the point that Corbyn is making why the war should commemorated at all. I would very much agree with Mciahel Goodman view

Very noble of you mate. You're a real nice feller.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

My view on the meaning of the quoted text didn't change, which is what we're talking about.

That's a bit weird imo... if a fragment of text isn't changed by placing it into a larger fragment of text which provides its context.

 

[Ubik]

That's a bit weird imo... if a fragment of text isn't changed by placing it into a larger fragment of text which provides its context.

If you could explain how the context changes what Corbyn was initially quoted as saying, it would be helpful. You can distil an hour long speech into a couple of sentences without the context altering the meaning.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Should have documentaries airing about the British atrocity propaganda during WW1, manufactured lies, etc. Would probably serve the dead better than looking sad and planting poppies.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

If you could explain how the context changes what Corbyn was initially quoted as saying, it would be helpful. You can distil an hour long speech into a couple of sentences without the context altering the meaning.

Watch the video, or read the transcript.

Corbyn is discussing American and British imperialism -- WW1 serves as a backdrop as he speaks about Keir Hardie who ardently opposed it. He contrasts this against Iraq, etc.

 

[Sweet Square]

Very noble of you mate. You're a real nice feller.

Well I thought you were at least implying that I was having a go at people for remember their lost ones rather than talking about the ''issues'' as you put it. Just wanted to say I wasn't.

 

[Ubik]

Watch the video, or read the transcript.

Corbyn is discussing American and British imperialism -- WW1 serves as a backdrop as he speaks about Keir Hardie who ardently opposed it. He contrasts this against Iraq, etc.

He says a sentence later that it was to b a "celebration" of WW1. Because poppies being made to resemble torrents of blood is exactly the kind of thing you do to celebrate. All those readings of the war poets who'd die soon after was all just to say "good job guys, and we'd make you do it all over again".

Jeremy Corbyn is a moron.

EDIT - But he mentions having a moment of silence for Chavez! The absolute irony. Okay he's not a moron, he's a cnut.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

EDIT - But he mentions having a moment of silence for Chavez! The absolute irony. Okay he's not a moron, he's a cnut.

I don't see the irony. Chavez didn't wage wars that killed millions.

 

[RedTiger]

I always seem to end up responding/debating with you (sorry for that), but what November 11 has come to mean is quite open to question.

But the British public is pretty militaristic so you will struggle to get elected espousing a view that runs entirely counter to that (Stop the War).

This is very true.

Sienna miller was vilified on social media yesterday for not wearing a poppy on the G. Norton show.

 

[Ubik]

I don't see the irony. Chavez didn't wage wars that killed millions.

Yeah, not like he stamped down on the free press and allowed human rights violations and widespread corruption. He said he was a socialist so he must be great, fully deserving of commemorations in ways that the millions who died in the war don't according to Jez.

 

[Chorley1974]

But the British public is pretty militaristic so you will struggle to get elected espousing a view that runs entirely counter to that (Stop the War).[/QUOTE]

If by militaristic you mean respectful, and grateful to those who have served in the military then I agree that the British public is.

 

[Untied]

If by militaristic you mean respectful, and grateful to those who have served in the military then I agree that the British public is.

I mean glorifying serving in the military. We do a fair amount of that in Britain. That is entirely independent of showing respect and appreciation for those who have served.

 

[Untied]

And without wanting to drag everyone into the whole poppy debate (although it is the time of year for it) is it just me or are things like this





basically nothing to do with remembrance and all about "showing I care".

 

[Ubik]

By the looks of it she just likes doing her nails.

 

[Chorley1974]

I mean glorifying serving in the military. We do a fair amount of that in Britain. That is entirely independent of showing respect and appreciation for those who have served.

How do we glorify it? I don't see it, genuine question.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

How do we glorify it? I don't see it, genuine question.

Military presence at sporting events for one.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Yeah, not like he stamped down on the free press and allowed human rights violations and widespread corruption. He said he was a socialist so he must be great, fully deserving of commemorations in ways that the millions who died in the war don't according to Jez.

Fair enough, that is a good point in all honesty (although I don't think Corbyn disagrees that millions of people who died don't deserve remembrance, just the proposals for commemoration).

 

[Chorley1974]

Military presence at sporting events for one.

you're taking the piss I presume

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

you're taking the piss I presume

Nope. What business does the army have at sporting events?