Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Sweet Square said:


Whole thread is worth a look.



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This doesn't really answer the Formby thing at all, who was clearly interfering in the case (you can say it was for good reasons as they have said in response, but they'd also previously said there hadn't been any interference had they not? and it wasn't just about speed, it was about the makeup of the panels), sending stuff to and from non-Labour accounts (given they're so hot on GDPR, this seems odd), and saying she's deleting all traces of the email. None of that is being disputed, it seems. I'm also willing to believe there might be one person who was employed by the party in disputes that had enough axes to grind to make so much stuff up, but multiple people, that also got signed off from working?

Conversely, the Milne misquote is woeful, crazy that that was let through. They should release the full docs sharpish.
 
Ubik said:
This doesn't really answer the Formby thing at all, who was clearly interfering in the case (you can say it was for good reasons as they have said in response, but they'd also previously said there hadn't been any interference had they not? and it wasn't just about speed, it was about the makeup of the panels), sending stuff to and from non-Labour accounts (given they're so hot on GDPR, this seems odd), and saying she's deleting all traces of the email. None of that is being disputed, it seems. I'm also willing to believe there might be one person who was employed by the party in disputes that had enough axes to grind to make so much stuff up, but multiple people, that also got signed off from working?
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Oh I wasn't saying that tweet answer Formby thing at all more than it was another thing the BBC fail to give full context on(Although if the Labour press account is getting hacked then I can why she would want to use a personal email.)

Ubik said:
Conversely, the Milne misquote is woeful, crazy that that was let through. They should release the full docs sharpish.
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Come on now that wasn't a mistake that got through by accident.
 
Sweet Square said:
Pretty much this.

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Similarly, the testimonies of Jewish members were left to float without context and response.
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I'll need to give the full thing a read to give a full comment...but I dunno, on first glance, this comment just stuck out to me as...weird? Like, I dunno, it just seems to me as such a strange thing to say about a minority group who are largely claiming there has been discrimination against them. Compared to any other group who I imagine Labour would stand up for there just seems to be so much reluctance and doubt in recognising that there's even an issue here. I mean, I remain unsure how legitimate certain accusations are, but generally when groups are being discriminated against their voices are rightfully considered to be the primary perspective and the key voice you want to hear. And their views can be analysed but here the suggestion seems to be that they inherently need to be questioned and doubted, that there's a somewhat decent chance they're lying, or being hysterical, or somehow being a bit shady about the whole thing.

I dunno, it's a weird one. I think a lot of the cases against Labour when it comes to systemic anti-semitism have been exaggerated at times, but when you see the tweets from certain prominent accounts that have just gone on the defensive you really start to see a problematic pattern emerging. And in a weird way I wonder if the increased focus on the issue is almost beginning to entrench certain issues in the party that weren't perhaps as prominent as they were made out to be initially.
 
Cheesy said:
I'll need to give the full thing a read to give a full comment...but I dunno, on first glance, this comment just stuck out to me as...weird? Like, I dunno, it just seems to me as such a strange thing to say about a minority group who are largely claiming there has been discrimination against them. Compared to any other group who I imagine Labour would stand up for there just seems to be so much reluctance and doubt in recognising that there's even an issue here. I mean, I remain unsure how legitimate certain accusations are, but generally when groups are being discriminated against their voices are rightfully considered to be the primary perspective and the key voice you want to hear. And their views can be analysed but here the suggestion seems to be that they inherently need to be questioned and doubted, that there's a somewhat decent chance they're lying, or being hysterical, or somehow being a bit shady about the whole thing.
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It wasn't a group chat with friends , it was a prime time documentary investigating anti semtism in the Labour Party. Not matter what the minority I would expect a investigative documentary to push for as much detail as possible. The documentary fail to do this a number of times.
 
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Saw some of this last night and was put off by The Day Today/Brass Eye style slow pixelated zooms on Corbyn like he was some kind of child molester. Is this standard stuff now for prime tv BBC current affairs programmes?
 
I feel a lot of people are putting their fingers in their ears and shouting "la la la, I can't hear you".

The suggestion that a load of disaffected ex-employees banded together and decided that, you know what, lets accuse the Labour Party of antisemitism, is rather fanciful.

The fact that 15 people have already been excluded from the Labour Party for antisemitic behaviour, suggests that there may actually be a problem here.

If you can't accept that then, ask yourself, are you, yourself, part of the problem, or is it that you just can't accept that the only party whose principles you approve of have let you down by not following the principles you approve of.
 
sun_tzu said:
I wonder if the EHRC are also blairite zionists making things up to undermine corbyn :smirk:

The EHRC said it “can only commence an investigation where we suspect that an organisation has committed an unlawful act”, using powers introduced when the last Labour government passed the Equality Act in 2006.
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https://www.theguardian.com/news/20...tchdog-could-rule-on-whether-labour-broke-law
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Sassy Colin said:
I feel a lot of people are putting their fingers in their ears and shouting "la la la, I can't hear you".

The suggestion that a load of disaffected ex-employees banded together and decided that, you know what, lets accuse the Labour Party of antisemitism, is rather fanciful.

The fact that 15 people have already been excluded from the Labour Party for antisemitic behaviour, suggests that there may actually be a problem here.

If you can't accept that then, ask yourself, are you, yourself, part of the problem, or is it that you just can't accept that the only party whose principles you approve of have let you down by not following the principles you approve of.
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indeed and its even more obvious that there is credible evidence of a problem when the EHRC decision to prosecute is also factored in
 
Sassy Colin said:
I feel a lot of people are putting their fingers in their ears and shouting "la la la, I can't hear you".

The suggestion that a load of disaffected ex-employees banded together and decided that, you know what, lets accuse the Labour Party of antisemitism, is rather fanciful.

The fact that 15 people have already been excluded from the Labour Party for antisemitic behaviour, suggests that there may actually be a problem here.

If you can't accept that then, ask yourself, are you, yourself, part of the problem, or is it that you just can't accept that the only party whose principles you approve of have let you down by not following the principles you approve of.
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It's most definitely both. The only reason the issue has been weaponised is that there is something their to begin with. It's fanciful to think politicians who don't like the new direction the party is going in wouldn't weaponise such an issue, especially when you have a lot of sub-parties within Labour.

I find the attacks on Formby a bit odd as she was welcomed to begin with and seems to be really highly regarded by many across the board.
 
Tom Watson who moaned about automatic exclusion now wants...automatic exclusion.
 
Silva said:
holy shit that's so many
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I guess that makes it alright then, the fact that 'only' 15 have been excluded? presumably, that's in the last couple of years.

Perhaps you might take the time to read the whole post rather than picking out the part that supports your, apparent, agenda?

What do you think of this then?

ellmann.jpg
 
Sweet Square said:
It wasn't a group chat with friends , it was a prime time documentary investigating anti semtism in the Labour Party. Not matter what the minority I would expect a investigative documentary to push for as much detail as possible. The documentary fail to do this a number of times.
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I'm not sure any other minority group would be faced with the same level of scrutiny or doubt when making claims that they've been discriminated against. Just above you've got a clip where people who have been faced with mental health issues are being branded as 'wimps' and the like even when some have threatened suicide.

Which I think is my overriding problem with a lot of the discourse surrounding this. Labour are a party who, on the left, are supposed to have sympathy with and who are supposed to side with ordinary people, and yet there appears to have been an almost complete ignorance from a lot of the party who don't think this is a problem that these people have had fairly horrible experiences at all.
 
Cheesy said:
I'm not sure any other minority group would be faced with the same level of scrutiny or doubt when making claims that they've been discriminated against. Just above you've got a clip where people who have been faced with mental health issues are being branded as 'wimps' and the like even when some have threatened suicide.

Which I think is my overriding problem with a lot of the discourse surrounding this. Labour are a party who, on the left, are supposed to have sympathy with and who are supposed to side with ordinary people, and yet there appears to have been an almost complete ignorance from a lot of the party who don't think this is a problem that these people have had fairly horrible experiences at all.
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literally everyone, like read any thread about anything on any forum and you'll find people being all like "uh, have you tried not being depressed" "uh, have you tried being a hermit who never goes out" etc. etc.
 
Silva said:
literally everyone, like read any thread about anything on any forum and you'll find people being all like "uh, have you tried not being depressed" "uh, have you tried being a hermit who never goes out" etc. etc.
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These types of things should not be getting said by people within a socially progressive left-wing party that's supposed to care about ordinary people.
 
Silva said:
literally everyone, like read any thread about anything on any forum and you'll find people being all like "uh, have you tried not being depressed" "uh, have you tried being a hermit who never goes out" etc. etc.
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Those comments all come from assholes.

And when you find yourself on the same side of the debate as assholes...
 
Cheesy said:
These types of things should not be getting said by people within a socially progressive left-wing party that's supposed to care about ordinary people.
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sure and hopefully she learns that, but the idea that it's only jews who get this treatment is just stupid

Pogue Mahone said:
Those comments all come from assholes.

And when you find yourself on the same side of the debate as assholes...
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aren't you one the more prominent "uh, why is PC and cancel culture so extreme these days" posters?
 
Cheesy said:


feck stuff like this.
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I got back late last night so only saw the last 15 minutes, but Sam Matthews and the woman with the haircut, was their position within the party complaint handlers? Genuinely asking because I didn't understand if they had been personally attacked (which seems most likely), or if the nature of the complaints proved too difficult or something.
 
I only caught a bit of the doc myself but was there actually examples of institutional anti-semitism or just issues with the complaints process?
 
Silva said:
sure and hopefully she learns that, but the idea that it's only jews who get this treatment is just stupid
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Of course not, but it feeds into this wider idea (true or otherwise) that for all their claims to supporting social justice and reducing inequality this party really don't care about helping ordinary people when they go against the party line or party agenda. I'll agree a lot of the claims that this is somehow unique or a problem within Labour alone are often overplayed and over-exaggerated, but I get the impression that even if there were actual problems a lot of the party would continue to keep their heads buried in the sand because they're determined their can't be a problem at all.

Which is partially where I think the disconnect comes from. Key figures in the party have acknowledged there's a problem and have said it needs to be dealt with but I simultaneously think a lot of said key figures just don't really see the issue at all, which leads to a certain dissonance.
 
Cheesy said:
I'm not sure any other minority group would be faced with the same level of scrutiny or doubt when making claims that they've been discriminated against. Just above you've got a clip where people who have been faced with mental health issues are being branded as 'wimps' and the like even when some have threatened suicide.

Which I think is my overriding problem with a lot of the discourse surrounding this. Labour are a party who, on the left, are supposed to have sympathy with and who are supposed to side with ordinary people, and yet there appears to have been an almost complete ignorance from a lot of the party who don't think this is a problem that these people have had fairly horrible experiences at all.
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Also this attitude clearly isn’t working in the polls so... what’s the point of it? It’s just champion grade sand burying at this point. It also appears to be the diametric opposite of the arguments being used by American leftists, who consistently argue (hi Eboue) that “voting to keep out Trump” was insufficient enough to vote for Hillary, or any establishment Dem, and that that is all their own fault... yet here, our version (which I would largely consider myself a part of) are seemingly arguing the same thing that their dreaded Centrist enemies are there... that convincing people of the Labour movement is irrelevant, ‘cos if you don’t just vote to keep out the Tories you’re a cnut.* It’s all a complete clusterfeck.

* I will vote for Labour regardless, because my philosophy is alwasy one of “do the least harm” .... but we’ve already a clear example of that not working on a wider electorate, and it’s worrying how little people seem to care. We’re going to lose this, and losing it smugly is no consolation.
 
Cheesy said:
I'm not sure any other minority group would be faced with the same level of scrutiny or doubt when making claims that they've been discriminated against.
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Again

Sweet Square said:
It wasn't a group chat with friends , it was a prime time documentary investigating anti semtism in the Labour Party. Not matter what the minority I would expect a investigative documentary to push for as much detail as possible. The documentary fail to do this a number of times.
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Also did you watch the documentary ?

Cheesy said:
Just above you've got a clip where people who have been faced with mental health issues are being branded as 'wimps' and the like even when some have threatened suicide..
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Er...we talking about the BBC show last night and the blog I posted.

Cheesy said:
Which I think is my overriding problem with a lot of the discourse surrounding this. Labour are a party who, on the left, are supposed to have sympathy with and who are supposed to side with ordinary people, and yet there appears to have been an almost complete ignorance from a lot of the party who don't think this is a problem that these people have had fairly horrible experiences at all.
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This discourse stuff is meaningless(In that it can be anything to anyone). The fact is the Labour party has in a number of ways put in place measures to deal with the anti semitism(Some of this by the way has pissed off Palestinians but whatever I guess) in the party.

What the party can't do is a sort of minority report and stop ahead of time people posting anti semitic stuff online or stupid people saying stupid things.
 
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Cheesy said:
Of course not, but it feeds into this wider idea (true or otherwise) that for all their claims to supporting social justice and reducing inequality this party really don't care about helping ordinary people when they go against the party line or party agenda.
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that's just how politics work and why people vote for party x instead of y when leaderships change, it would be foolish to pretend that a corbyn labour would have the same agenda as a watson labour
 
Mockney said:
yet here, our version (which I would largely consider myself a part of) are seemingly arguing the same thing that their dreaded Centrist enemies are there... that convincing people of the Labour movement is irrelevant, ‘cos if you don’t just vote to keep out the Tories you’re a cnut.* It’s all a complete clusterfeck.
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i don't think anyone here has made that argument
 
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