Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Pogue Mahone said:
I put his deliberate dishonesty down to a fear that saying what he really thinks might lose him votes. The literal opposite of having the courage of his convictions. It’s just semantics though. I can’t help taking the most insulting interpretation possible because I’m furious at the way he’s facilitated the Brexit Torygeddon.
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An honest statement from him about brexit would reduce labour's chances of winnig an election under his leadership to zero.
He always criticised the EU as quintessential neoliberal (and potentially imperial) entity and while I am not a fan of these terms his general descriptive understanding is not entirely false.
This jakobin article explains some of it and it doesn't even include trade, fiscal, monetary and migration policy issues that would add further constraints.
While I don't share Corbyns views at all (I am pro 'neoliberalism'), it is fairly consistent and sensible, if one accept his priors. It's also unrealistic to assume that Corbyn or any other politician could change these neoliberal qualities of the eu, because many are at the very core and well institutionalized. You may tinker around the edges, but you can't change course.
I actually don't doubt that Corbyn could say many positive things about the EU as well so on balance he might be genuinely conflicted about leaving. Nonetheless he'll never be able to reconcile his analytical framework with the reality of econ law/policy in the EU.
Additionally his own views aren't official party line, which adds another layer of complexity for a guy that is known for his uncompromising/pure view of the world.

In hindsight one can say that he failed to develop/promote a position that allows labour to capture more votes. That said I think that's actually really hard despite the whole mess and I wouldn't automatically assume that a clearcut pro-remain position would lead to better results. Maybe if labour would change the framing of the issue but he is the wrong guy for that.
I am a bit surprised that many ardent Corbyn supporters are also strongly committed to remain. I don't fully understand that, but this is obviously not directed at you.
 
Those who support remain are not saying it is the perfect option.
Just that it is a far less damaging option.
It is inevitable that after a few years of Brexit we will have to go cap in hand to the EU and they will insist on conditions for return that will be far more painful.
 
People keep talking about Corbyn's reluctance to back a second referendum when it would seem (according to many people) the rest of the Labour Party does!

Corbyn doesn't want to risk changing the referendum result, personally he has been anti-EU, even when its wasn't the EU. His great hero of the left Tony Benn also was against joining and he foretold the future, back in the 70's, "once you join the Common Market and the longer you are in it, the harder it will be to get out...don't do it"

The financial rules of the EU will prevent JC delivering his Socialist Utopia in the UK, that's why he's still pursuing his own Unicorns. His great wish is not a referendum but a GE and with Farage on the rampage he might just get it, if he does he will have played a 'blinder' and his beloved Arsenal would do well to sign him up!
 
Smores said:
It isn't a remain party, the output of party conference has been very clear about that. They're a soft brexit party, they might not truly believe that's attainable and think it'll end up at people's vote anyway but first and foremost they've agreed to respect the result.

It is damaging the party and I've long argued that was going to happen but so does coming out for remain perhaps more so. It's a game of which is worse short term and long term. If Labour had gone full on remain they'd have certainly done better in the european elections but i doubt it would see them elected in a GE.

A remain win at a GE requires a small amount of leavers voting Labour still.
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Problem with this is that they're not a soft Brexit party - they are the same as the Tories, wanting an unattainable Brexit . A soft Brexit is staying in the CU and SM and accepting the four freedoms including FoM.

Like the Tories they are only interested in whether they are in power, not what's best for the country.
 
esmufc07 said:
Pete Willsman is member of the NEC and had since been suspended

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Struggle to understand this logic of Corbyn's currently. He's quick to expel Alistair Campbell from the party, and then you get guys like Willsman who makes explicit comments and he's suspended. Ridiculous.
 
F-Red said:
Struggle to understand this logic of Corbyn's currently. He's quick to expel Alistair Campbell from the party, and then you get guys like Willsman who makes explicit comments and he's suspended. Ridiculous.
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He may just be being loyal to old friends, he may be anti-semitic himself, or something else he can't say for some reason, or a combination of two or more. I don't know, none of us know, but by doing nothing he's inviting people to think whatever they want and he's no defence against that. No leadership whatsoever.
 
If only there had been some hint that Willsman may be a crackpot beforehand.
 
F-Red said:
Struggle to understand this logic of Corbyn's currently. He's quick to expel Alistair Campbell from the party, and then you get guys like Willsman who makes explicit comments and he's suspended. Ridiculous.
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To be fair, it's not up to Corbyn.
 
Smores said:
It isn't a remain party, the output of party conference has been very clear about that. They're a soft brexit party, they might not truly believe that's attainable and think it'll end up at people's vote anyway but first and foremost they've agreed to respect the result.

It is damaging the party and I've long argued that was going to happen but so does coming out for remain perhaps more so. It's a game of which is worse short term and long term. If Labour had gone full on remain they'd have certainly done better in the european elections but i doubt it would see them elected in a GE.

A remain win at a GE requires a small amount of leavers voting Labour still.
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There’s a reason I specified IF you consider the overwhelming opinions of members and voters. As for needing a small amount of leave voters, so what? So hardline socialist leavers are going to vote Brexit party or Tory but apparently hardline socialist remainers will be loyal no matter what? I’ve never understood that logic, and the recent elections appear to demolish the theory.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Where do you draw the line out of interest?

Plenty have posted about it on Twitter. Would you be in favour of expelling them?
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Sweet square's role is to defend Corbyn no matter how well or badly he does his job so you won't get a reply.
 
nickm said:
Sweet square's role is to defend Corbyn no matter how well or badly he does his job so you won't get a reply.
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:lol:

Also

Sweet Square said:
Personally I wouldn't expel people for talking about voting for other parties or at the very least make it difficult to do so. But really it's hard for me to take this case seriously as it's firstly Alastair Campbell openly being a arsehole on telly and then the ''outrage'' is coming from people who have tried in the past to get rid of members on mass.
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Sweet Square said:
Personally I wouldn't expel people for talking about voting for other parties or at the very least make it difficult to do so. But really it's hard for me to take this case seriously as it's firstly Alastair Campbell openly being a arsehole on telly and then the ''outrage'' is coming from people who have tried in the past to get rid of members on mass.
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Me too!
Its a classic case of deflection, the remaining Blairite still left in the public persona of Labour, Alistair Campbell's brought his old media past to the fore and deflecting attention, he's getting the headlines off the very poor showing of the Labour party in the EU elections and onto himself and a few others who are joining in with the "I'm Spartacus" shouts, "I voted Lib-Dem; Greens, SNP, PC, whatever, kick me out too...please kick me out too, please."
 
I'm not sure how Labour expects to gain power without the votes of the sort of people who agree with Alistair Campbell. In fact to form a government they will need all their votes, and on top of that persuade a fair number of Tory voters to switch to them as well. As a plan 'we hate you but please vote for us anyway' seems somewhat flawed to me.
 
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Maticmaker said:
Me too!
Its a classic case of deflection, the remaining Blairite still left in the public persona of Labour, Alistair Campbell's brought his old media past to the fore and deflecting attention, he's getting the headlines off the very poor showing of the Labour party in the EU elections and onto himself and a few others who are joining in with the "I'm Spartacus" shouts, "I voted Lib-Dem; Greens, SNP, PC, whatever, kick me out too...please kick me out too, please."
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Maybe labour need to hire someone with his skill then?
 
Maticmaker said:
Me too!
Its a classic case of deflection, the remaining Blairite still left in the public persona of Labour, Alistair Campbell's brought his old media past to the fore and deflecting attention, he's getting the headlines off the very poor showing of the Labour party in the EU elections and onto himself and a few others who are joining in with the "I'm Spartacus" shouts, "I voted Lib-Dem; Greens, SNP, PC, whatever, kick me out too...please kick me out too, please."
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I think it's fair we treat the situation as seriously as Campbell is, which is not very serious at all.

This is a good article by Richard Seymour on the topic.



711 said:
I'm not sure how Labour expects to gain power without the votes of the sort of people who agree with Alistair Campbell. In fact to form a government they will need all their votes, and on top of that persuade a fair number or Tory voters to switch to them as well. As a plan 'we hate you but please vote for us anyway' seems somewhat flawed to me.
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Who likes Alistair Campbell ? Also its not a rejection of the politics of someone like Campbell(That rejection happened in 2015)its getting rid of a party member for going around on national television saying he's not going to vote for the party(Not something I really agree with).

Your right that Labour needs the sort of people who agree with Campbell - liberals. But there is a few issue with that -

  • The party position on Brexit clearly now needs addressing to say the least, they got away with it for decent amount of time but now its catching up with them. Although this position isn't a simply as supporting a second referendum nor does supporting one fix the brexit crisis. One of the many reasons why supporting a second referendum isn't so simply is that for a decent size portion of Remain voting base it's not just about having the Brexit policy they want but also engaging in a odd culture war shite rather than class politics. So going to the marches, talking about the fecking red bus, painting god awful flag on your face etc. Basically a lot of awful shit that people on the left hate. Unless Corbyn does that(Which he won't thankfully)then there is always going to be some resentment towards him.
  • Another issue is that..........well a lot people who describe themselves as liberals are actually far more to the right than previous generations, to the point where they are basically thatchites with a liberal social outlook. The evidence for this being the only people offering such things state investment in the economy, nationalisation, worker rights e.g. basic social democracy are the far left of the Labour Party. John Maynard Keynes the guy who saved liberalism in the 20th century now looks like a radical lefty. Really todays Labour Party is a no brainer for of course anyone on the left but liberals as well(I would even include business owners). Yes there's little bits of leftism in the party platform but overall the ''crazed marxist'' labour party is throwing one hell of a life line to western capitalism.
 
Sweet Square said:
Another issue is that..........well a lot people who describe themselves as liberals are actually far more to the right than previous generations, to the point where they are basically thatchites with a liberal social outlook. The evidence for this being the only people offering such things state investment in the economy, nationalisation, worker rights e.g. basic social democracy are the far left of the Labour Party. John Maynard Keynes the guy who saved liberalism in the 20th century now looks like a radical lefty. Really todays Labour Party is a no brainer for of course anyone on the left but liberals as well(I would even include business owners). Yes there's little bits of leftism in the party platform but overall the ''crazed marxist'' labour party is throwing one hell of a life line to western capitalism.
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Hmm. A little bit romantic there. The challenge is that the voting public is clearly in a binary status currently, and the problem with Labour is that its not pinning any flag to a mast, let alone even informing people on what direction they want to take. Which is why they're so far behind in polls, and probably one of the reasons why a lot of the core Labour vote moved to Lib Dems in the recent election.

Currently Labour are not doing anything in terms of a life line, heck they're not even providing proper opposition to government through extremely weak leadership.
 
F-Red said:
Hmm. A little bit romantic there. The challenge is that the voting public is clearly in a binary status currently, and the problem with Labour is that its not pinning any flag to a mast, let alone even informing people on what direction they want to take. Which is why they're so far behind in polls, and probably one of the reasons why a lot of the core Labour vote moved to Lib Dems in the recent election.

Currently Labour are not doing anything in terms of a life line, heck they're not even providing proper opposition to government through extremely weak leadership.
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Less than 40% of people voted in the recent election and it's only the one poll(It's wasn't that along labour were 5 point clear of the tories)

You could right but I'll give it more time to see if there's been a long last change of labour voters to the lib dems.
 
Sweet Square said:
  • Another issue is that..........well a lot people who describe themselves as liberals are actually far more to the right than previous generations, to the point where they are basically thatchites with a liberal social outlook. The evidence for this being the only people offering such things state investment in the economy, nationalisation, worker rights e.g. basic social democracy are the far left of the Labour Party. John Maynard Keynes the guy who saved liberalism in the 20th century now looks like a radical lefty. Really todays Labour Party is a no brainer for of course anyone on the left but liberals as well(I would even include business owners). Yes there's little bits of leftism in the party platform but overall the ''crazed marxist'' labour party is throwing one hell of a life line to western capitalism.
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I doubt it will really matter even if true that Marxists have little influence in Labour, come the next election the Tory machine will claim a massive hidden Marxist agenda anyway, and given just about everyone now agrees Corbyn is a proven liar on Brexit then Labour are going to find it damned hard to prove they're not lying about that as well.
 
Sweet Square said:
Less than 40% of people voted in the recent election and it's only the one poll(It's wasn't that along labour were 5 point clear of the tories)

You could right but I'll give it more time to see if there's been a long last change of labour voters to the lib dems.
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I posted earlier in here or the Brexit thread about how Corbynites undetestimate the importance of Brexit to remainers. It is wishful thinking, if not arrogance, to think Corbyn's socialist agenda is so compelling that it dominates Brexit and will somehow keep remainers loyal. It won't. It is very likely many who have defected will not return to Labour if Corbyn keeps equivocating on Brexit. Brexit is that big.

I am not even sure it will be that easy for Labour to regain supporters even if they firmly tilt towards a second referendum. Labour has handed the Lib Dems a lifeline and momentum. If the Lib Dems get themselves a new young energetic leader, as looks likely, who speaks very eloquently and articulately about Brexit, they might be turning even more heads.
 
711 said:
I doubt it will really matter even if true that Marxists have little influence in Labour, come the next election the Tory machine will claim a massive hidden Marxist agenda anyway, and given just about everyone now agrees Corbyn is a proven liar on Brexit then Labour are going to find it damned hard to prove they're not lying about that as well.
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Still this take away the point that liberal are offering nothing.

RedChip said:
I posted earlier in here or the Brexit thread about how Corbynites undetestimate the importance of Brexit to remainers. It is wishful thinking, if not arrogance, to think Corbyn's socialist agenda is so compelling that it dominates Brexit and will somehow keep remainers loyal. It won't. It is very likely many who have defected will not return to Labour if Corbyn keeps equivocating on Brexit. Brexit is that big.

I am not even sure it will be that easy for Labour to regain supporters even if they firmly tilt towards a second referendum. Labour has handed the Lib Dems a lifeline and momentum. If the Lib Dems get themselves a new young energetic leader, as looks likely, who speaks very eloquently and articulately about Brexit, they might be turning even more heads.
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Possibly.

The agenda in the last election stopped all talk of brexit, will it this time is anyone guess(Although I expect not). Depends when the next general election is.
 
Sweet Square said:
The agenda in the last election stopped all talk of brexit, will it this time is anyone guess(Although I expect not). Depends when the next general election is.
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It was relevant because the event hadn't happened by then, so therefore the agenda of an opposition didn't need to focus heavily on something which hasn't occurred, or more crucially had no chance of influencing. Wind on a few years, and the time to talk about policy to move politics on from it's stalemate, Labour don't declare a clear position that voters can understand. The buck stops with the leadership (far too indecisive).

For Labour's and the Tories sake, they will be hoping the next General Election is as far away as possible.
 
Raulduke said:
:wenger: This can't be true, surely. What were they thinking if it is!?

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He couldn't really not, could he, given that he was perfectly happy to meet (and attend the state banquet for) President Xi and has previously called Hamas and Hezbollah "friends", attended a ceremony commemorating the 1972 Munich terrorists and supported the IRA?

That hasn't stopped him giving a speech at the anti-Trump protest, though, (presumably because Trump spurned his invitation).
 
Infra-red said:
He couldn't really not, could he, given that he was perfectly happy to meet (and attend the state banquet for) President Xi and has previously called Hamas and Hezbollah "friends", attended a ceremony commemorating the 1972 Munich terrorists and supported the IRA?

That hasn't stopped him giving a speech at the anti-Trump protest, though, (presumably because Trump spurned his invitation).
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This is the point I was getting at. How could they not see that the two things together would be terrible optics? Even if they had been open about it before Trump blurted it out they could've played it like Corbyn was trying to be a grown up about it whereas he has just come off as the complete opposite.
 
Sweet Square said:
Still this take away the point that liberal are offering nothing.


Possibly.

The agenda in the last election stopped all talk of brexit, will it this time is anyone guess(Although I expect not). Depends when the next general election is.
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The longer we get from 2017 the more I think I disagree with this idea.

It appears to me more that people voted predominantly along remain-leave lines in 2017, though somehow with a belief that Labour were the party of remain (or at the very least, the party against Theresa May/Conservative Brexit).

That vote being in a period without a Farage-led UKIP/ Brexit Party, the Lib Dem’s at historic levels of unpopularity and a huge number of people voting Labour to protest against May, or for the Conservatives against Corbyn, also all combined to give a very strange election result. In hindsight, does it seem logical that the two main parties received their highest share of the vote since the 70s? Or does it not make sense that we will see a continuation of the prior trends, of fragmentation of political votes, and increasing share of voice/votes from the smaller/ more specialist parties?

Feck knows what this all means for the next election, but I’m not sure that 2017’s results will hold up very much as a comparison.
 
Whenever we see Corbyn trying to give a passionate speech to a crowd or parliament he looks so pathetic. Not PM material.
 
This man is incredible. How he manages to position himself as a worse option than the absolute shambles that is the Tory party is beyond belief.
 
hobbers said:
How anyone can still be backing Corbyn these days... talk about zealotry.
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A sort of Peter Pan character - never really grew up from being a sandal wearing, lentil eating student who spent his weekends going on demos, until he's now just a charicature of The Young One's Neil in his old age.
 
Just watched that clip on the beeb, it was like watching one of those guys flogging socialist worker outside stretford arndale. Beyond amazing that this guy could be in number 10 one day.
 
Full bodied red said:
A sort of Peter Pan character - never really grew up from being a sandal wearing, lentil eating student who spent his weekends going on demos, until he's now just a charicature of The Young One's Neil in his old age.
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Is eating lentils something you're meant to grow out of? :lol: some of the shit people come out with. No wonder this country is fecked.
 
EwanI Ted said:
Just watched that clip on the beeb, it was like watching one of those guys flogging socialist worker outside stretford arndale. Beyond amazing that this guy could be in number 10 one day.
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Are there more brexit meetings scheduled that I missed?
 
Why does Trump rejecting the meeting make Corbyn look bad? Basically couldn't be arsed being held to account or hearing any ideas other than his own and those shared by Farage et al. Anyone else and I'd read more in to it but Trump doesn't deserve that much credit.
 
Ady87 said:
Why does Trump rejecting the meeting make Corbyn look bad? Basically couldn't be arsed being held to account or hearing any ideas other than his own and those shared by Farage et al. Anyone else and I'd read more in to it but Trump doesn't deserve that much credit.
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Because Corbyn asked to meet Trump after previously saying he would refuse to meet Trump.
 
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