Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

There is no way Labour would have won in ‘83 however way you paint it. That is why the SDP and the defections came to be in the first place after Labours lurch to the left.

At least we can say Change UK haven’t made the same impact, so history doesn’t appear as yet to be repeating itself. Make no mistake though the split in Labour is absolutely there now as then.

I also don’t agree with the view the Falklands turned Thatchers fortunes around. That again is something of an oft peddled convenient myth. The falling number of strikes since 1979 had more to do with that & the sense that the government was beginning to wrestle back control from the too powerful unions. Though yes, it clearly didn’t do her any harm.

The electorate has few qualms with left wing economics? Why haven’t we had a proper Socialist government for 40 years then? Pure media bias and nothing else?

Old Labour have got that perennial tag of being economic incompetents because it was richly deserved & for a certain generation, we remember Healey going to the IMF & the Winter of Discontent. It was fecking grim. Which is why the Tories won 4 elections on the bounce afterwards.

That’s what happens when you give too much power to the workers sorry to say. They take the p*ss.

But if you are making the distinction that Corbyn is in fact centre & not hard left (officially maybe) and well just “that was then and this is now” again it begs the question why do we need Labour and the Liberals occupying that centre / left space then? The Liberals seem to just have a lot less grief surrounding them than Labour almost perpetually do. Plus of course they don’t have any connection with the Unions. Another very big plus imo.

On the first two bolded sections: If you have a gander at the polling from the time, the SDP split happened at a time when Labour were dominant in the polls. The split didn't occur because Labour's shift to the left was harming it's electoral prospects. Quite the opposite, it happened because the shift to the left hadn't harmed the party's prospects and it was looking increasingly like the left of the party would win the next election. As Cheesy points out, whether you agree with the idea that the Falklands saved Thatcher or not, the polling bears it out; had there been an election on the eve of the Falklands War, a far more left wing Labour than the current one would likely have won it. Thatcher was incredibly unpopular during her first term because her economic policies simply left the majority of people worse off than they had been in 1979. You can talk about reducing inflation, but to trumpet it as a triumph in and of itself shows an ignorance of how economics affects the real world. Her dogmatic adherence to the free market and obsession with smashing unions counteracted any benefits lower inflation might have yielded for the man on the street; all reducing inflation achieved in practice was to make British exports uneconomic and force hundreds to factories to close. Her unwillingness to intervene to support industry (partially out of adherence to laissez-faire economics and partially because letting big factories fail would hurt the unions) caused record unemployment which lasted well into the mid-80s and drove hundreds of thousands into poverty. Before the war she had some of the lowest approval ratings of any PM in history, afterwards she had some of the highest.

You could write a whole book on the 3rd bolded section. Media plays a huge part, most outlets have enormous right-wing bias and a lot of people don't have a head for politics or the time/inclination to do independent research into what they read. Jingoism remains an enormous factor in British politics, in 2019 it's still political suicide to be anything but obsequious to the armed forces, the monarchy etc. or to attempt to deviate from the idea that Britain is always the goodie and the other guy is always the baddie. The British left's biggest problem electorally is that it has little appetite for blind patriotism. The fractious nature of the British left, it's split in tendencies between partisan alignment and factionalism, gerrymandering, low voter turnout amongst the poor, FPTP, the domination of politics, journalism and business by the upper middle classes and dozens of other factors all tie in. Regardless, polling consistently shows that the public are generally to the left economically of the politicians they elect. Hell, polling from the 2000s demonstrated that if people voted purely on the basis of the policies they supported, the Green Party would get the most votes.

Just briefly on the last bolded point; we don't need them both occupying the centre/left space so it's handy that they don't. In terms of their policy commitments Corbyn's Labour occupy the centre-left. The PLP spans from a left to centre-right, the Tory Party spans centre-right through to hard-right and the Lib Dems float hither and yon without letting their feet touch the floor long enough for them to actually grow some ideological roots; they don't have many convictions or ideas and they don't seem to really believe in the ones they have.

Anyway, I feel like you're missing both of my points there. The first is that if you actually look at it, the policy platform of Corbyn's Labour isn't particularly left-wing. Take nationalisation/privatisation as an example: nationalising everything would be the ultra-left position and privatising everything would be the ultra-right position. Current Labour policy is to nationalise key infrastructure and utilities and leave everything else privatised, which is basically the definition of middle-ground. It's undoubtedly a more centrist position than the current state of affairs where almost every utility is privatised, huge swathes of our infrastructure is privatised, private companies run our transport infrastructure (badly) and government departments and the NHS routinely contract the private sector to provide front-line services (again, badly). Across the board, current Labour policy is dipping its toes into Social Democracy, not paddling into Socialism or diving into Communism (which is how many in the Tory Party and the right-wing media would have it).

The second point is that again, when you actually look at it, the policy platform of Corbyn's Labour bears very little resemblance to the "old school Socialism" you mentioned in the post I was responding to. For example if we take nationalisation again, the 2017 manifesto and the surrounding policy documents specifically reject the big-state model of nationalisation which characterised the party in the 1960s and 1970s. It's just a lazy comparison, and one seemingly based solely on the fact that the people involved all identify themselves as 'socialists' rather than on looking at the actual policies.

I’m pretty sure it wasn’t that those members had voted for other parties, it was that they were members of other parties.

Nah, plenty of people got barred on the grounds that they'd tweeted/posted on facebook in support of the Greens prior to joining Labour. One person got barred from the voting for tweeting in support of the Foo Fighters ffs.
 
On the first two bolded sections: If you have a gander at the polling from the time, the SDP split happened at a time when Labour were dominant in the polls. The split didn't occur because Labour's shift to the left was harming it's electoral prospects. Quite the opposite, it happened because the shift to the left hadn't harmed the party's prospects and it was looking increasingly like the left of the party would win the next election. As Cheesy points out, whether you agree with the idea that the Falklands saved Thatcher or not, the polling bears it out; had there been an election on the eve of the Falklands War, a far more left wing Labour than the current one would likely have won it. Thatcher was incredibly unpopular during her first term because her economic policies simply left the majority of people worse off than they had been in 1979. You can talk about reducing inflation, but to trumpet it as a triumph in and of itself shows an ignorance of how economics affects the real world. Her dogmatic adherence to the free market and obsession with smashing unions counteracted any benefits lower inflation might have yielded for the man on the street; all reducing inflation achieved in practice was to make British exports uneconomic and force hundreds to factories to close. Her unwillingness to intervene to support industry (partially out of adherence to laissez-faire economics and partially because letting big factories fail would hurt the unions) caused record unemployment which lasted well into the mid-80s and drove hundreds of thousands into poverty. Before the war she had some of the lowest approval ratings of any PM in history, afterwards she had some of the highest.

You could write a whole book on the 3rd bolded section. Media plays a huge part, most outlets have enormous right-wing bias and a lot of people don't have a head for politics or the time/inclination to do independent research into what they read. Jingoism remains an enormous factor in British politics, in 2019 it's still political suicide to be anything but obsequious to the armed forces, the monarchy etc. or to attempt to deviate from the idea that Britain is always the goodie and the other guy is always the baddie. The British left's biggest problem electorally is that it has little appetite for blind patriotism. The fractious nature of the British left, it's split in tendencies between partisan alignment and factionalism, gerrymandering, low voter turnout amongst the poor, FPTP, the domination of politics, journalism and business by the upper middle classes and dozens of other factors all tie in. Regardless, polling consistently shows that the public are generally to the left economically of the politicians they elect. Hell, polling from the 2000s demonstrated that if people voted purely on the basis of the policies they supported, the Green Party would get the most votes.

Just briefly on the last bolded point; we don't need them both occupying the centre/left space so it's handy that they don't. In terms of their policy commitments Corbyn's Labour occupy the centre-left. The PLP spans from a left to centre-right, the Tory Party spans centre-right through to hard-right and the Lib Dems float hither and yon without letting their feet touch the floor long enough for them to actually grow some ideological roots; they don't have many convictions or ideas and they don't seem to really believe in the ones they have.

Anyway, I feel like you're missing both of my points there. The first is that if you actually look at it, the policy platform of Corbyn's Labour isn't particularly left-wing. Take nationalisation/privatisation as an example: nationalising everything would be the ultra-left position and privatising everything would be the ultra-right position. Current Labour policy is to nationalise key infrastructure and utilities and leave everything else privatised, which is basically the definition of middle-ground. It's undoubtedly a more centrist position than the current state of affairs where almost every utility is privatised, huge swathes of our infrastructure is privatised, private companies run our transport infrastructure (badly) and government departments and the NHS routinely contract the private sector to provide front-line services (again, badly). Across the board, current Labour policy is dipping its toes into Social Democracy, not paddling into Socialism or diving into Communism (which is how many in the Tory Party and the right-wing media would have it).

The second point is that again, when you actually look at it, the policy platform of Corbyn's Labour bears very little resemblance to the "old school Socialism" you mentioned in the post I was responding to. For example if we take nationalisation again, the 2017 manifesto and the surrounding policy documents specifically reject the big-state model of nationalisation which characterised the party in the 1960s and 1970s. It's just a lazy comparison, and one seemingly based solely on the fact that the people involved all identify themselves as 'socialists' rather than on looking at the actual policies.



Nah, plenty of people got barred on the grounds that they'd tweeted/posted on facebook in support of the Greens prior to joining Labour. One person got barred from the voting for tweeting in support of the Foo Fighters ffs.

First two years Thatcher was deeply unpopular because of the fiscal measures she introduced, then she got that grip on inflation, and the economy returned to growth BEFORE the Falklands.

I think you are seriously overestimating the Falklands impact like most of Thatchers opponents tend to do. She actually lost 700k votes in 1983 but still romped home because Labour were a absolute mess because of going to the left. So how you can say Foot’s hard left policies weren’t to blame in anyway I don’t know.

Why did Attlee win a landslide against Churchill in 1945 if winning a war is all people care about? After all, as you say yourself, unemployment was high throughout this period was it not?

We can debate the merits and downsides of Thatcherism all day long. In very brief summary, Labour & the Unions had the country on its knees so Thatcher’s right wing agenda was very painful for some but -overall- it did more good than bad for the country, especially after what was happening before, which is why a lot of the shift in that direction hasn’t been reversed to this day. She changed the Labour Party. They initially tried going to the outer limits in response, it didn’t work under Foot and they then spent 18 long years aiming for the centre ground & reelection as Tory lite.

As for Corbyn, he is only “centre” left because of the success of Thatcherism. The fact that he is even struggling to sell that “centre left” agenda 40 years on should tell you this country has always tended to be conservative with a small “c”. Blaming it all simply on the right wing media isn’t very credible anymore, especially now in the internet era where printed media carries a lot less clout and no Fox News equivalent in the UK. However, we do have the BBC of course. Ha.

As for the disparaging comments about the Lib Dem’s, typical Labour arrogance on display there. I suppose you’ll be telling us they have an ideologically inferior Brexit policy to Corbyn ?
 
Last edited:
On the first two bolded sections: If you have a gander at the polling from the time, the SDP split happened at a time when Labour were dominant in the polls. The split didn't occur because Labour's shift to the left was harming it's electoral prospects. Quite the opposite, it happened because the shift to the left hadn't harmed the party's prospects and it was looking increasingly like the left of the party would win the next election. .

I tend not to get involved in these debates because the politics and timing of events isnt clean so multiple points of view can all have merit, but I have to point out its not really accurate to say that Labour had shifted to the left as early as 1979. Callaghan had resisted a shift to the left during that time. As far as most of the public were concerned the shift to the left started in November 1980 with the appointment of Michael Foot and was complete by the 1982 Labour Party conference when most of the resolutions that underpinned to the 1983 manifesto were made. Labour had great polling before Foot took over, typically polling between 45 and 50%. However within about a year of Foot taking over, it had fallen to 30% and generally stayed there or there abouts til the 1983 election.

There's way more to Labour's poor performance in 83 than just a shift to the left, not least some very public warring among factions in the party and of couse the SDP, the war and the right wing press eventually getting behind Thatcher. But the history doesn't support the idea that Labour's 1979 & 1980 polling represents support for its later shift to the left.
 
...it's not really accurate to say that Labour had shifted to the left as early as 1979...the history doesn't support the idea that Labour's 1979 & 1980 polling represents support for its later shift to the left.

On the first bits, I think you've misunderstood my post because I've never suggested either of those things. My point was that the evidence doesn't support the claim that the shift to the left in and of itself led to poor polling results. The period between Foot's election and the SDP split saw Labour polling very strongly, often with double figure leads. They took a hit between April and June in the wake of the split but returned to a double figure or thereabouts leads between July and September. The crash in Labour support after that point corresponds directly with the rash of defections in October. From then on there was basically a 3 horse race which Labour was edging until the Falklands when the Tories shot up about 10 points. Labour are down to around 30 consistently at that point, except for right after the 1982 conference where they gained 5 points or so before slumping as more infighting kicked in 1983.
 
On the first bits, I think you've misunderstood my post because I've never suggested either of those things. My point was that the evidence doesn't support the claim that the shift to the left in and of itself led to poor polling results. The period between Foot's election and the SDP split saw Labour polling very strongly, often with double figure leads. They took a hit between April and June in the wake of the split but returned to a double figure or thereabouts leads between July and September. The crash in Labour support after that point corresponds directly with the rash of defections in October. From then on there was basically a 3 horse race which Labour was edging until the Falklands when the Tories shot up about 10 points. Labour are down to around 30 consistently at that point, except for right after the 1982 conference where they gained 5 points or so before slumping as more infighting kicked in 1983.

Even on rereading the line "If you have a gander at the polling from the time, the SDP split happened at a time when Labour were dominant in the polls. The split didn't occur because Labour's shift to the left was harming it's electoral prospects..." I struggle not to see that as you suggesting that the shift to the left had happened at a time when the polling was good. But if thats my error, apols.

On one other point, there was all of 10 weeks between Foot being appointed and the limehouse decleration so I dont think you can draw too many conclusions from good polling for that short period, particularly given that it was consistent with where Labour had been for the previous 18 months.

On your other points, sure those are largely correct, there was a lot going on back then. It wasnt that the public just took a cold eyed look at Labour's manifesto and didnt like it, it has to be seen in the wider context of the politics of the day. However its also worth pointing out that two of the big issues, the SDP and the war, harmed labour in part because of their shift to the left. The SDP was created as a direct result of Labour's shift to the left. That change left more centrally minded Labour types without a home, so they went somewhere else. Likewise the war threw a lot of focus on defense and Labour's position on it, particularly around disarmament, was never going to do well. In both cases the party's position and the publics view of it are tied up with the overall shift to the left. Its not like there was a slease scandal or some other event that isn't really about left/right politics.
 
He's way out in front as the most irrelevant British politician of the decade, that's some achievement in the current climate.

The fact he's somehow managed to basically avoid having an opinion on the biggest issue the country has faced in decades is beyond remarkable. A politician whose entire mantra was built on economic conviction basically deciding to shy away from something hugely important and potentially incredibly detrimental to that very same economy. McDonnell and Thornberry have clearly judged where the wind is moving and have shifted accordingly but Corbyn still doesn't get it.
 
The fact he's somehow managed to basically avoid having an opinion on the biggest issue the country has faced in decades is beyond remarkable. A politician whose entire mantra was built on economic conviction basically deciding to shy away from something hugely important and potentially incredibly detrimental to that very same economy. McDonnell and Thornberry have clearly judged where the wind is moving and have shifted accordingly but Corbyn still doesn't get it.
I can't agree with 'doesn't have an opinion' I'm afraid Cheesy. I think he has a very strong opinion, he's a Brexiter, and he doesn't want a second referendum because Remain might win. He has an opinion alright, he just doesn't want to admit what it is because his own supporters wouldn't like it. I don't know who I have less respect for, him or his supporters with their telescopes firmly glued to their blind eyes.
 
Last edited:
i guess he's learnt nothing from the european elections then. he needs to go, for the sake of the party.
 
Meh I'll stick my head in the sand and claim that's still just posturing to avoid Tories claiming we're a remain party.

I don't care what he says as long as when the time comes Labour push a public vote which I'm sure they will. There isn't going to be any movement until a new Tory leader is elected anyway.
 
Meh I'll stick my head in the sand and claim that's still just posturing to avoid Tories claiming we're a remain party.


2CE6B31700000578-3253488-image-m-71_1443535269858.jpg
 
The fact he's somehow managed to basically avoid having an opinion on the biggest issue the country has faced in decades is beyond remarkable. A politician whose entire mantra was built on economic conviction basically deciding to shy away from something hugely important and potentially incredibly detrimental to that very same economy. McDonnell and Thornberry have clearly judged where the wind is moving and have shifted accordingly but Corbyn still doesn't get it.

He has an opinion but daren't say it. If he suddenly disappeared would anyone notice?
He might get his GE in 2022, good luck to him trying to implement his policies and digging the UK out of an economic disaster at the same time in his mid to late 70s.
 
Ffs, Klopp has an opinion about everything:

16AA9031-A9FF-4D93-A400-A55ABDA453B0.thumb.png.cb7bc9dbafb767c1c33c0869c641ba82.png
 
The fact he's somehow managed to basically avoid having an opinion on the biggest issue the country has faced in decades is beyond remarkable. A politician whose entire mantra was built on economic conviction basically deciding to shy away from something hugely important and potentially incredibly detrimental to that very same economy. McDonnell and Thornberry have clearly judged where the wind is moving and have shifted accordingly but Corbyn still doesn't get it.

I can't agree with 'doesn't have an opinion' I'm afraid Cheesy. I think he has a very strong opinion, he's a Brexiter, and he doesn't want a second referendum because Remain might win. He has an opinion alright, he just doesn't want to admit what it is because his own supporters wouldn't like it. I don't know who I have less respect for, him or his supporters with their telescopes firmly glued to their blind eyes.

The problem isn’t so much him not having an opinion as his cowardly reluctance to come out and express it. It’s mealy-mouthed, fence-sitting, insipid bullshit. So scared of offending anyone, he ends up appealing to nobody.

How anyone can think a politician who so clearly lacks the courage of his convictions could ever win a general election is a fecking mystery.
 
The problem isn’t so much him not having an opinion as his cowardly reluctance to come out and express it. It’s mealy-mouthed, fence-sitting, insipid bullshit. So scared of offending anyone, he ends up appealing to nobody.

How anyone can think a politician who so clearly lacks the courage of his convictions could ever win a general election is a fecking mystery.
I don't think he's so much cowardly as quite deliberately dishonest. Regarding the general election the Tory machine will accuse him of saying one thing in his manifesto whilst intending quite another once in power, and given his Brexit performance many will believe that quite possible.

Boris is cowardly, for a comparison.
 
I don't think he's so much cowardly as quite deliberately dishonest. Regarding the general election the Tory machine will accuse him of saying one thing in his manifesto whilst intending quite another once in power, and given his Brexit performance many will believe that quite possible.

Boris is cowardly, for a comparison.

I put his deliberate dishonesty down to a fear that saying what he really thinks might lose him votes. The literal opposite of having the courage of his convictions. It’s just semantics though. I can’t help taking the most insulting interpretation possible because I’m furious at the way he’s facilitated the Brexit Torygeddon.
 
I don't get what he's doing at all. He had a large proportion of the country in the palm of his hand and he must know most of his supporters would be anti-Brexit.

I do still think he'd be the best PM out of the options we have by far, Brexit aside (although that's a pretty big deal), but it's frustrating to think that and have him be so poor at going for it.
 
I don't get what he's doing at all. He had a large proportion of the country in the palm of his hand and he must know most of his supporters would be anti-Brexit.

I do still think he'd be the best PM out of the options we have by far, Brexit aside (although that's a pretty big deal), but it's frustrating to think that and have him be so poor at going for it.

Shit and shitter?
 
Meh I'll stick my head in the sand and claim that's still just posturing to avoid Tories claiming we're a remain party.

I don't care what he says as long as when the time comes Labour push a public vote which I'm sure they will. There isn't going to be any movement until a new Tory leader is elected anyway.

Labour IS a remain party if you actually consider the overwhelming majority opinions of the members and voters. The fact Corybn won’t embrace that is killing his party.
 
Labour IS a remain party if you actually consider the overwhelming majority opinions of the members and voters. The fact Corybn won’t embrace that is killing his party.

Great news. Hopefully Labour as well as the Tories bite the dust and this century-old contrived electoral First Past The Post stitch up between them ends ASAP.

Lib Dem & Brexit Parties offering much clearer positions on Brexit.

Tories perpetually split on this issue & no end to that in sight.

Labour also split to a degree. Plus, not *really* the same Party since the Unions were bludgeoned in the 1980s. Remind us, what was their raison d’etre again?

Lib Dem’s (& very likely) Brexit Party also offering some kind of electoral reform.

No brainer surely. Don’t vote Lab/Con.
 
Last edited:
Labour IS a remain party if you actually consider the overwhelming majority opinions of the members and voters. The fact Corybn won’t embrace that is killing his party.
The last two Labour manifestos say otherwise, one for the UK and one for the EU. If you voted Labour in either you voted for Brexit, there's no way round that.
 
Corbyn or not, there is no option but to vote Labour.

The alternative are the Tories who brought us to Brexit and who have gutted the Welfare state.

For Remainers the Lib Dems, SNP and Greens (in some areas) are all now valid options.
 
Where do you draw the line out of interest?

Plenty have posted about it on Twitter. Would you be in favour of expelling them?
Personally I wouldn't expel people for talking about voting for other parties or at the very least make it difficult to do so. But really it's hard for me to take this case seriously as it's firstly Alastair Campbell openly being a arsehole on telly and then the ''outrage'' is coming from people who have tried in the past to get rid of members on mass.
 
Last edited:
Labour IS a remain party if you actually consider the overwhelming majority opinions of the members and voters. The fact Corybn won’t embrace that is killing his party.

It isn't a remain party, the output of party conference has been very clear about that. They're a soft brexit party, they might not truly believe that's attainable and think it'll end up at people's vote anyway but first and foremost they've agreed to respect the result.

It is damaging the party and I've long argued that was going to happen but so does coming out for remain perhaps more so. It's a game of which is worse short term and long term. If Labour had gone full on remain they'd have certainly done better in the european elections but i doubt it would see them elected in a GE.

A remain win at a GE requires a small amount of leavers voting Labour still.