Yeah it's not really fair.
Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)
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And there we have it.
"Didn't you vote Lib Dem?"
That's the intellectual force behind it all. That's the party that gathers in a field and genuinely cannot understand why people would question whether or no there was something better it could be doing.
What was the point of this event at a time when the govt is on the verge of collapse?
Crowds
Father Ted clip
"LOL Oscie"
"Didn't you vote Lib Dem"
Brilliant.
"Didn't you vote Lib Dem?"
That's the intellectual force behind it all. That's the party that gathers in a field and genuinely cannot understand why people would question whether or no there was something better it could be doing.
What was the point of this event at a time when the govt is on the verge of collapse?
Crowds
Father Ted clip
"LOL Oscie"
"Didn't you vote Lib Dem"
Brilliant.
Here a very long article about the event(I'll spoiler it so doesn't take up too much space)
Doesn't Trump get criticized by holding rallies for himself for no particular reason?
Or is that different because.....it's Corbyn?
What's funny is that we have a Tory govt imposing a Tory Brexit and Labour's priorities are:
Even this was done in conjunction with actually opposing the government then fine, but it's not it's instead of.
Or is that different because.....it's Corbyn?
What's funny is that we have a Tory govt imposing a Tory Brexit and Labour's priorities are:
Even this was done in conjunction with actually opposing the government then fine, but it's not it's instead of.
I actually agree with you mate. They should have spent this weekend doing heroin instead, way more fun.
So still no idea what it was about then?
you mean the event where some people sang and others gave left wing speeches about stuff, nah idk mate
Of course trump is criticised for it. He actually is president for a start. American politics are very different to UK as well so not sure we should be comparing.
I do find this labourlive thing a bit daft but if it gets like minded people together and makes people feel invested and involved in Labour it's probably done it's job. Not my cup of tea though.
Trump is in power and chose to hold a number of large rallies, Corbyn is not in power and held a rally to engage with his base.
How would Corbyn not being in London over this weekend affect Brexit in any way? You're having a meltdown over nothing.
People criticise Trump for holding rallies when it wasn’t even a year into his 4 year fixed term as President.
Corbyn is the leader of the opposition to a Government that is on the ropes. Is there anything wrong with holding an annual event where Labour members are invited to come along, have a good time, show support for their party and generally build a positive feeling around the party?
Why are you all so blind, a sensible labour leader like Owen Smith would single handedly stop Brexit and win over the country with his political prowess. There's like a handful of Tories who've broken with the government on recent votes and as we know there isn't a single Labour politician who is eurosceptic so it would be well easy. Instead Jeremy spends this most political of Saturdays patting himself on the back outside London! Like, what even is that?
I was just curious how this clearly principled disapproval of what you perceive as 'abstaining from crucial votes and helping the government' lives in the same brain as a Lib Dem voter.
Here a very long article about the event(I'll spoiler it so doesn't take up too much space)
3.30am man and this has me buckled. Fair play.
Tbf, we've now swung back into the realms of unhelpful whattaboutism. Oscie deserves about 2/3rds of the stick he gets in here. Perhaps a half fraction more. But it's also pretty clear that the groupthink pile ons he's instigated have put a lot of other people off contributing to this thread at all. I mean, only about 6 people still regularly post. In a 250 page thread. Most of whom only do so to post links or argue with Oscie. Even weirdo Tory boy Nick_0208_Lnd stopped posting. And his only purpose was to troll.
I'm a life long Labour member, from a family of life long Labour members, with a nan who served as a Labour MP, and who voted for Corbyn as leader. Twice. Yet I rarely post in here, despite my well earned reputation for a good online barney, because even I can't be arsed to argue the ups and downs of left wing politics anymore, with people who see it entirely as a zero sum game. With apparent progressives who react to accusations of anti-semitism with blithe dismissive whataboutism. Who laugh at the Lib Dems for sabotaging their youth support, but shout down any insinuation it could happen to young Remainers. Who complain when satirists target Corbyn, and act like we won the last election because we did better than expected in defeat, after a decade of abysmal Tory rule, under the worst PM in my lifetime.
It’s not actually bad to talk about this stuff. It doesn’t mean we’re traitors, or turncoats, or secret centrist Blairte Tories.
I want Corbyn to succeed. I really do. But at some point at least a couple of us have to ask whether we want to actually win an election, at all costs, or just smugly lord it over our in-group ideological rivals, on forums like these, without really achieving anything tangible. Like those other perennial ideological winners the Bernie bros did.
I'm a life long Labour member, from a family of life long Labour members, with a nan who served as a Labour MP, and who voted for Corbyn as leader. Twice. Yet I rarely post in here, despite my well earned reputation for a good online barney, because even I can't be arsed to argue the ups and downs of left wing politics anymore, with people who see it entirely as a zero sum game. With apparent progressives who react to accusations of anti-semitism with blithe dismissive whataboutism. Who laugh at the Lib Dems for sabotaging their youth support, but shout down any insinuation it could happen to young Remainers. Who complain when satirists target Corbyn, and act like we won the last election because we did better than expected in defeat, after a decade of abysmal Tory rule, under the worst PM in my lifetime.
It’s not actually bad to talk about this stuff. It doesn’t mean we’re traitors, or turncoats, or secret centrist Blairte Tories.
I want Corbyn to succeed. I really do. But at some point at least a couple of us have to ask whether we want to actually win an election, at all costs, or just smugly lord it over our in-group ideological rivals, on forums like these, without really achieving anything tangible. Like those other perennial ideological winners the Bernie bros did.
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Much as I'm no Lib Dem, and will continually argue they were incredibly insipid during the coalition years, I do find the mocking of their poor polling numbers to be a fairly lazy rebuttal to comments surrounding Labour's stance on Brexit. Primarily when the most common (and arguably lazy) criticism against Corbyn in his early years was constantly pointing out his poor polling numbers and saying how that alone meant he had to go.
Don't get me wrong, I don't expect any significant surge in the Lib Dem vote as such, but even a swing of 3-4% nationally from the Labour vote to them could potentially have a massive effect in any future election. Even if it's to purely give the Tories more seats.
And don't get me wrong, I do still get why Corbyn's not really taking a stance on Brexit, because he's not in government and he's not in a position where it's particularly beneficial to do so, but it does kind of become a bit silly if you're putting forward a substantive economic agenda while ignoring the most significant domestic political event in decades that'll undoubtedly impact that intended agenda.
Don't get me wrong, I don't expect any significant surge in the Lib Dem vote as such, but even a swing of 3-4% nationally from the Labour vote to them could potentially have a massive effect in any future election. Even if it's to purely give the Tories more seats.
And don't get me wrong, I do still get why Corbyn's not really taking a stance on Brexit, because he's not in government and he's not in a position where it's particularly beneficial to do so, but it does kind of become a bit silly if you're putting forward a substantive economic agenda while ignoring the most significant domestic political event in decades that'll undoubtedly impact that intended agenda.
Although shall add complaining about the rally is utterly bizarre. Naturally the party are going to hold events to let supporters/members gather, keep momentum going etc. All political parties and organisations do it.
Plus, you know, the whole hypocrisy of claiming criticism of Corbyn is needless and bias in a World where the Tories are always worse (which, yes, obviously)...and yet also in which Brexit - the single biggest modern thing they’re responsible for - is off limits as a talking point, despite being the biggest British political divining rod of the 21st century, because Corbyn can’t promise his new young urban fanbase that he’ll fight against it...So shut up! But also despite that, we still definitely CAN laugh at the ancient Lib Dem campaign of 2010, and the people who voted for that, because it also betrayed their young urban fanbase, but in a completely different way, because Centrists, or something?
But also yes, Labour Live is clearly absolutely kosher. No ironic racism intended.
This is a response to a very specific idea, that Labour suddenly adopting a hardcore europhile policy is an electoral goldmine - and the lib dems are the perfect illustration that it isn't. Other criticism have different responses, i.e Why didn't labour back the tory rebels? The parliamentary maths relies on every labour MP backing it*. So even if they had, it wouldn't be enough it would just create a minor policy position they'd be held to that might turn out to be the wrong one anyway. Specifically,
EEA amendment - this one I'd be fine with, faux brexit is best brexit but that's still possible anyway and the EU reportedly thinks is the most likely outcome anyway - for the record, I read both the first stage and second stage agreements and I can't see any outcome other than no deal or faux brexit. It's impossible.
Parliamentary final vote amendment - seems reasonable enough and I have no idea why the government is against it tbh, MPs won't have choice but the accept whatever deal because the alternative they'll face is a no deal exit.
Second referendum amendment - which referendum though? another in/out seems unlikely and a deal/no deal ref has a high risk of a no deal outcome - whatever the deal is will leave much of the country unhappy because this whole mess is ill-conceived and rushed.
*not a full list
The problem with the lib dems is that they're comically hypocritical. If Labour had signed a pledge either pre-referendum or pre-2017 election that they will categorically opposite Brexit and then didn't, sure, they'd lose a ton of votes but that didn't happen. Maybe it will alienate a lot of people but this hasn't borne out either at the last election* or in current polling.
*I realise they didn't win the last election, but there hasn't been much data to back their Brexit stance being responsible for it. Depending on which side of the post-mortem you fall, either the country hates Jeremy or Labour put money in the wrong areas (I'm sure you guess where I fall so no need to go into it)
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I'm happy to hold my hands up to my own bias on the subject of Corbyn but the whole #JezFest2018 thing has brought into focus precisely what people now think this party is. Not just the event itself but the reaction on social media and here. There are people who 'follow' (for lack of a better word) Labour that actually seem to have absolutely no interest in politics at all. Corbyn's staunchest defenders seem to either not have an opinion on any political issue apart from liking Jeremy Corbyn, or they don't care about politics and are just Ribwich (Simpsons reference) groupies for the man
If tomorrow Corbyn announced plans for a 2nd referendum people in this thread who are defending his non-existent opposition to extreme, Tory Brexit will instantly be of the opinion that a 2nd referendum is the only moral thing to do and anyone who disagrees with that (and in turn agreed with them 10 seconds ago) is to be attacked and isolated.
I find it profoundly uncomfortable the fanboyism over a political leader where people act more loyal than devoted single mum, 36, of Nantwich who decided to have all of her favourite members of Take That tattooed to her face. The party is run by someone who refuses to do anything to stop the Tories ruin the country, supported by a fan base who genuinely don't seem to hold any political conviction outside of 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn'. And yeah in that context a gathering in a field to talk about how great we are seems out of touch.
If tomorrow Corbyn announced plans for a 2nd referendum people in this thread who are defending his non-existent opposition to extreme, Tory Brexit will instantly be of the opinion that a 2nd referendum is the only moral thing to do and anyone who disagrees with that (and in turn agreed with them 10 seconds ago) is to be attacked and isolated.
I find it profoundly uncomfortable the fanboyism over a political leader where people act more loyal than devoted single mum, 36, of Nantwich who decided to have all of her favourite members of Take That tattooed to her face. The party is run by someone who refuses to do anything to stop the Tories ruin the country, supported by a fan base who genuinely don't seem to hold any political conviction outside of 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn'. And yeah in that context a gathering in a field to talk about how great we are seems out of touch.
We're all clearly interesting in politics and policy positions. The reason we like him is because he's a genuine left wing voice who has spent decades in anti-war movements, opposing oppressive regimes - including getting arrested for his opposition of apartheid, his current foreign policy positions against military intervention in the middle east - in recent years opposing military action in Libya and Syria. His left wing economic policies of higher taxation and public spending, nationalisation of rail, rent controls, increased public housing and so on. But no, you're the only person who really cares. Get a fecking load of yourself.
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There's no divergence of opinion. No criticism. No real political debate of any kind beyond "How dare you criticize anything Corbyn says, does or stands for". No-one is allowed to notice.
It's a tent that you're either pissing out of or pissing in to but nobody really seems to care that the Labour party is now just a massive tent of piss. Because "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" and "you voted Lib Dem" and "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" and maybe a gif of Corbyn and "Oh Jeremy Corbyn".
March 2019, we'll maybe crash out on a no deal basis but "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" because opposition to Brexit is "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" and hardship suffered, partly as a result Tory Brexit being ushered through unopposed will be fine because "Oh Jeremy Corbyn".
And yet people who point that out are the ones in the wrong. Massive political earthquake my arse it's just students who think they're politically engaged because they've bought a t-shirt that says "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" and literally nothing else matters to them.
Other than that I'm sure it was a great day had by all.
It's a tent that you're either pissing out of or pissing in to but nobody really seems to care that the Labour party is now just a massive tent of piss. Because "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" and "you voted Lib Dem" and "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" and maybe a gif of Corbyn and "Oh Jeremy Corbyn".
March 2019, we'll maybe crash out on a no deal basis but "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" because opposition to Brexit is "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" and hardship suffered, partly as a result Tory Brexit being ushered through unopposed will be fine because "Oh Jeremy Corbyn".
And yet people who point that out are the ones in the wrong. Massive political earthquake my arse it's just students who think they're politically engaged because they've bought a t-shirt that says "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" and literally nothing else matters to them.
Other than that I'm sure it was a great day had by all.
Yet having been on this forum for long enough to know you & I largely align in our views most of the time. I can’t help but feel you wouldn’t be nearly as blithe or dismissive about this, we’re it not an ideological Momentum issue.. and this newfangled idea that Labour would be suicidal to oppose a hard Brexit, because a whopping 52% majority of largely right wingers voted for it, is bizarre in the extreme...and I suspect you know it?
We have a Country ideologically devided, 52 to 48, largely along the lines of right and left, old and young...and yet we have both of our major opposing political parties, arguing for essentially the same thing, for the benefit of the same side. With the left leaning, youth orientated Party claiming it would alienate too many people to do anything but obediently fall in with the marginal 52%... leaving just under half the country to be dammed. feck ‘em.
Which, depending on your perspective, is either a practical decision (which would be amusing considering the new Left’s unpractical MO of alienating and shaming anyone less Left than Chomsky or Greenwald) or an ideological one, which would basically admit to betraying all the lefty youngers who will actually tangibly lose out.
From this POV, you can surely see how much of traitorous cop out this could kinda seem? Especially from those pushing the whole ideologically pure, “right side of history” narrative?
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Labour is opposing a hard Brexit. The Stage 1 and 2 agreements are both the soft-Brexit option that make all but full regulatory alignment impossible and Labour is opposed to a no-deal exit*. There's a lot of huffing and puffing from Johnson, Mogg and co. that has entered the public consciousness and lead to the idea that they're backseat driving every facet of the country and every detail of the exit but that's not what the signed papers say.
*
Jeremy said:
Mentioned this in the Brexit thread itself but the reality is Labour need to win voters in Scotland, who're overwhelmingly anti-Brexit, back from the SNP to stand any chance of forming a government. The idea it must chase the Tory/UKIP vote in England or face electoral disaster whilst completely ignoring the young Scottish voters who see stopping Brexit as the number one political imperative, really seems more of a feeble excuse than the supposed political calculation it's passed off as.
Whatever you think of Corbyn on the scale of 1 to 10 of how likely he is to win the support of right-wing nuts who would be torn between UKIP and the Tories at the polling booth he's probably about -28. Whereas despite the fact I don't like him, young, Scottish, SNP voters should firmly be in his target range. Ignoring the latter to chase the former is illogical. I suspect everyone knows that but the line is just poor attempt to divert attention away from the fact Corbyn would be sharing platforms with Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg and Farage if not for the inconvenience of leading a party who overwhelmingly disagree with him on Brexit.
Whatever you think of Corbyn on the scale of 1 to 10 of how likely he is to win the support of right-wing nuts who would be torn between UKIP and the Tories at the polling booth he's probably about -28. Whereas despite the fact I don't like him, young, Scottish, SNP voters should firmly be in his target range. Ignoring the latter to chase the former is illogical. I suspect everyone knows that but the line is just poor attempt to divert attention away from the fact Corbyn would be sharing platforms with Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg and Farage if not for the inconvenience of leading a party who overwhelmingly disagree with him on Brexit.
SNP voters are also overwhelmingly pro-independence so what exactly will Labour changing their brexit policy do about that?
Surely we can’t be far away from at least one of these parties collapsing? Is that so much to ask for? Sick and tired of watching these lunatics battle it out for power
Support a federalization platform and use the same logic of why staying in the EU is so important to sell the idea of staying in the union, but on much better terms. The union is eventually going to have to federalize or break apart anyway, so it seems a pretty easy choice to support.
The SNP would respond as:
And it's pretty compelling, if you were a caffeine addict you wouldn't settle for a herbal tea.
IMO the only way labour is winning over SNP voters if both parties enter a coalition and labour siphons support ala the condem coalition.
Waiting for the penny to drop when he'll realise/admit his positiin on brexit cannot exclude FOM.
Labour can’t rely on something so unreliable. They need a solid and coherent position and need to start marketing it early. I disagree that it’s not a compelling position, the big weakness with independence is that it’s potentially very risky. Voters don’t like risk usually, and will only go for it if they think they’ve had their needs ignored for too long. Give them a good safe solution that solves many of their problems and they’ll usually bite your hand off.
This is why they went to the SNP in the first place.
This hasn't borne out in recent years.
For the record, Scottish Labour has consistently campaigned for greater devolution and it hasn't lead to much electorally.
Easy to understand why the SNP are an attractive prospect for voters as it's clear where they stand on Brexit ("fecking stupid idea") and independence ("fecking great idea").
Compare that with the other two parties up there who are use disappearing up their own arses trying to pretend that on the major issue facing Scotland they're not absolutely identical.
Compare that with the other two parties up there who are use disappearing up their own arses trying to pretend that on the major issue facing Scotland they're not absolutely identical.
The SNP lost seats at the last general election and the last Scottish parliamentary elections. I could understand if they were still at the post indiref high but the idea that changing brexit policy will single handedly hand labour Scotland is at best ignorant.
For the record, labour voted with the SNP against the most recent devolution power grab, Jeremy going to Glasgow to talk about it. But who cares, eh? Lets pretend he's just dossing around in his allotment and not doing anything.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...wer-grab-on-the-scottish-parliament-1-4738226Jeremy said:
At Holyrood. Didn't bother their arses at Westminster.
Jez needs to appease his racist base on Brexit.
As an outsider, the devoted support some people seem to have for Corbyn seems odd.
The congratulations that followed him losing an election to arguably the worst PM in living memory were weird. The lack of intense criticism for a Brexit policy that seems to ignore the beliefs of a large swathe of the populace who voted against Brexit whilst also engaging in the same Brexit-land fantasies that have been rejected by everyone outside the UK already? Even weirder.
I mean if you're of the opinion that Brexit is a disaster being driven by delusional politicians (as most on the caf seem to be) then how can you so strongly support someone who (to the outside world) seems little less delusional in that regard than the Tory government you presumably despise?
I realise that's just one issue but it's arguably the most important in, what, the last 100 years of British politics? How are people so committed to someone whose position on that issue is one they're hugely at odds with?
The congratulations that followed him losing an election to arguably the worst PM in living memory were weird. The lack of intense criticism for a Brexit policy that seems to ignore the beliefs of a large swathe of the populace who voted against Brexit whilst also engaging in the same Brexit-land fantasies that have been rejected by everyone outside the UK already? Even weirder.
I mean if you're of the opinion that Brexit is a disaster being driven by delusional politicians (as most on the caf seem to be) then how can you so strongly support someone who (to the outside world) seems little less delusional in that regard than the Tory government you presumably despise?
I realise that's just one issue but it's arguably the most important in, what, the last 100 years of British politics? How are people so committed to someone whose position on that issue is one they're hugely at odds with?