Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Corbyn will consider Tory MPs his friends, past and present. Because Corbyn isn't a child. That's kind of how life works. You enrich your experiences by associating with those different to you. You become a better person and as @Pogue Mahone says, you avoid the echo chamber. Arguably it's one of the flaws currently of the hard left that there isn't much debate beyond 'everyone who disagrees is a Tory and should leave the party'. Full echo chamber embracing and that's not healthy and damaging to the party and ultimately helps the Tories.

Saw an opinion poll today where it's 41/40 in their favour. Others will be couple of points either way but I want to stop pretending that that's good enough. This government should be 15-20 points behind in every poll. Easily. If someone is concerned that the Tories are doing well in the polls despite everything, such thing doesn't make them a Tory.
 
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Oscie said:
Corbyn will consider Tory MPs his friends, past and present. Because Corbyn isn't a child. That's kind of how life works. You enrich your experiences by associating with those different to you. You become a better person and as @Pogue Mahone says, you avoid the echo chamber. Arguably it's one of the flaws currently of the hard left that there isn't much debate beyond 'everyone who disagrees is a Tory and should leave the party'. Full echo chamber embracing and that's not healthy and damaging to the party and ultimately helps the Tories.

Saw an opinion poll today where it's 41/40 in their favour. Others will be couple of points either way but I want to stop pretending that that's good enough. This government should be 15-20 points behind in every poll. Easily. If someone is concerned that the Tories are doing well in the polls despite everything, such thing doesn't make them a Tory.
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This will be partly true, and I'd find anyone who excludes someone from their social circle because of divergences in politics a bit suspect so long as those divergences aren't extreme, but echo chambers aren't really exclusive to the left or hard-left. You'll find those echo chambers in just about every political group that's ever existed. Old, Brexit-supporting Tories will mostly associated with other old, Brexit-supporting Tories. Centrist/moderate Labour members and voices will mostly associated with other centrist, moderate Labour voices, and probably aren't really spending all that much more time engaging with solidly right-wing Tories than Corbyn's lot are.

Indeed, see the 2015 election up in Scotland for an example of the centrist Labour MP's and activists hilariously failing to engage with a disillusioned electorate by basically insisting they were in the right until people told them to feck off.

So yes - there are people entrenched in their own viewpoints, but that's exclusive for everyone who is involved in a political organisation. Or people in general.

On the last point - yes, Labour need to be doing better in the polls, but (I know we're going in circles here) a shift to the centre isn't going to facilitate that.
 
It isn't so much even the polls, frustrating as they are, it's how the government is able to get away with so much and Labour's front bench seem completely unable to capitalise. The party are a near irrelevance when it comes to Brexit, for example. If the front bench exerted as much pressure on the government as it could then they'd have won far more concessions and maybe we wouldn't be going down the 'hold your nose, jump and hope for the best' Brexit we seem to be.

There is no media strategy. The party is awful at communicating its message and the argument for why seems to be both that the right wing media are scum and not worth bothering with - and also that they're tremendously influential. It really can't be both, but somehow it is.

This government get away with so much that would have had any other government at any other time in history on its knees and yet because it looks over at the Labour party and sees all the attention focused on the fact Jess Phillips should quit because she is friends with a Tory, it's able to get away with it. Even the last election was only a good result if you start off from the base of ridiculously low expectations. A party that just took a country through a divisive and unnecessary election - and lost - had no real business retaining power, let alone win 55 more seats than the biggest opposition party.

I guess where my frustration lies is that the response should be: Yeah that isn't good enough, what can we do better? Instead it's: This is good enough, shut up Tory!

The irony being that if I was a Tory I'd be absolutely delighted with that.
 
Oscie said:
It isn't so much even the polls, frustrating as they are, it's how the government is able to get away with so much and Labour's front bench seem completely unable to capitalise. The party are a near irrelevance when it comes to Brexit, for example. If the front bench exerted as much pressure on the government as it could then they'd have won far more concessions and maybe we wouldn't be going down the 'hold your nose, jump and hope for the best' Brexit we seem to be.

There is no media strategy. The party is awful at communicating its message and the argument for why seems to be both that the right wing media are scum and not worth bothering with - and also that they're tremendously influential. It really can't be both, but somehow it is.

This government get away with so much that would have had any other government at any other time in history on its knees and yet because it looks over at the Labour party and sees all the attention focused on the fact Jess Phillips should quit because she is friends with a Tory, it's able to get away with it. Even the last election was only a good result if you start off from the base of ridiculously low expectations. A party that just took a country through a divisive and unnecessary election - and lost - had no real business retaining power, let alone win 55 more seats than the biggest opposition party.

I guess where my frustration lies is that the response should be: Yeah that isn't good enough, what can we do better? Instead it's: This is good enough, shut up Tory!

The irony being that if I was a Tory I'd be absolutely delighted with that.
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Literally the best result since 1997 and the reason there was such low expectations was because the PLP tried a coup on the leader. Christ almighty talk about selective memory loss.

Also you didn't vote Labour in the last election :wenger:
 
Sweet Square said:
Literally the best result since 1997 and the reason there was such low expectations was because the PLP tried a coup on the leader. Christ almighty talk about selective memory loss.

Also you didn't vote Labour in the last election :wenger:
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Err...much as it was a better vote share, ultimately in a system where seats matter it wasn't better than 2001 or 2005.
 
Some serious delusion in this thread.

The whole reason people are criticial or at least a bit judgemental about the Labour movement is because it really doesn't seem like they're doing enough to be stand-out alternatives to the Tories (for the masses).
 
The 2015 leadership contents field was absolutely dire. The guy who never even could admit he even wanted the job ended up winning. I think stronger candidates viewed that as the poisoned chalice. Imagine the expectation was that whoever won that race would lose the next election at which point then there would be calls for a new leader and the party would be ripe for 'renewal'.

By 2016 when Smith challenged Corbyn the atmosphere had become absolutely toxic that nobody would have stood unless they wanted their letterbox firebombed. Suspect Smith regretted standing fairly quickly after he did. My fear is that when Corbyn does stand down as leader there'll be good candidates who simply won't stand fearing the aggressive and highly personalised campaign that's pretty much guaranteed to take place.

2015 was only 3 years ago and yet the party feels completely different. The idea of Cooper supporters making death threats to Kendall cheerleaders would have seemed absolutely absurd. As would Burnham and Corbyn fans exchanging insults on social media. But if a contest took place now, for whatever reason, nobody would deny that sort of thing would be taking place. If tomorrow Corbyn decided he wanted to spend more time with his allotment the subsequent leadership race would be conducted to a backdrop of bitter, acrimonious, factional warfare, hatred and abuse. Not sure it's credible to deny that. Something else that makes me a bit sad, really.
 
Untied said:
Richard Angell surrounds his twitter handle in brackets. He’s pretty right wing.
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Wait whaaat? I'm hopefully missing a joke here as I've only skimmed the thread after being away a few days.
 
Is now a good time to remind people of Corbyn’s broader unelectability?
 
O'Brien hitting the nail again. I voted labour as usual but tbh, it was out of habit as with the last GE. I know a lot of people who voted for him at the primary, unhappy with how he's handled Brexit.
 
Adisa said:
O'Brien hitting the nail again. I voted labour as usual but tbh, it was out of habit as with the last GE. I know a lot of people who voted for him at the primary, unhappy with how he's handled Brexit.
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Didn't last night just show(For the millionth time) that there really is no case for Labour to adopt a Remain case. Yes their position on brexit is rubbish but if anything they somehow need to be more pro leaving.
 
Sweet Square said:
Didn't last night just show(For the millionth time) that there really is no case for Labour to adopt a Remain case. Yes their position on brexit is rubbish but if anything they somehow need to be more pro leaving.
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I'm not so sure. It's widely viewed 60%+ of the party voted remain. I voted labour at the end of the day but I know quite a few Corbyn and passionate labour voters who did not bother turning up. Coupled with the unable to pick up centrist votes, it's easy to see why things are the way they are.
Some people say the people who voted leave are going to vote Conservative anyway and in the same breath say Labour should back leave to the hilt.
Doesn't make sense to me.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Feck me. How low does May need to go to lose an election to Labour? Start biting the heads off babies on the front steps of 10 Downing Street?
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I think so.

Sadly for Corbyn, this should spell the end. I like a lot of things about the man but as you say, if he can't make a dent in the tories after Windrush, Brexit etc, the party and his leadership is fecking pointless.
 
Adisa said:
I'm not so sure. It's widely viewed 60%+ of the party voted remain.
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But it's not enough to win a election, they need the Labour voters who voted out. I think the strategy(If you can even call it that)is to offer a very left wing brexit in a hope it will appeal to the more lefty city areas while the Labour leave voters see the party is ''respecting the referendum'', again it's not a great plan but I've yet to see anyone come up with a better one.

Adisa said:
I voted labour at the end of the day but I know quite a few Corbyn and passionate labour voters who did not bother turning up.
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But does that have anything to do with Labour supporting Brexit or it being local elections and people not being that arsed ?

Adisa said:
Coupled with the unable to pick up centrist votes,
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These votes just don't exist or if they do it's such such a low percentage that it's not worth making concessions to.
 
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Dobba said:
It's definitely pointless now the Lib Dems have secured enough council seats to cancel Brexit.
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It's easy all Corbyn has to do is wrap himself in a EU flag and give a speech on top of a fighter jet(Presumably a Eurofighter)and then all the nasty bad Brexit people will disappear and we can remain in the EU.

I understand the frustrations many pro remain liberals have but also it's so clear that had Labour picked their position and got destroyed in last election they wouldn't have thought oh maybe we where wrong for being so pro remain, it would of been the problem was Corbyn being too left wing.
 
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If you can’t win big against this Tory lot, you’re not going to do shit in the long term.
 
Think it needs to be remembered that the local results last year were genuinely abominable for Labour, and still saw a massive surge in the GE. Might rely on that kind of home-run campaign again, but perfectly plausible.
 
Ubik said:
Think it needs to be remembered that the local results last year were genuinely abominable for Labour, and still saw a massive surge in the GE. Might rely on that kind of home-run campaign again, but perfectly plausible.
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Don't think the cons will have such a disaster of a campaign again.
Anyway, hope we don't have to go to the polls again for a while.
Everything has gone to the dogs.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
I think so.

Sadly for Corbyn, this should spell the end. I like a lot of things about the man but as you say, if he can't make a dent in the tories after Windrush, Brexit etc, the party and his leadership is fecking pointless.
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With most Tory voters being unwilling to move to anyone due to Brexit, nobody else could do any better. Peak Blair would have struggled.
 
ClutchHunter said:
With most Tory voters being unwilling to move to anyone due to Brexit, nobody else could do any better. Peak Blair would have struggled.
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Labour doesn't need to win over most Tory voters. Only some of them. Which shouldn't be too big an ask, seeing what an absolute shambles the Brexit negotiations have been, followed by the Windruff fiasco. Plus they should be trying to hold onto the Labour voters who switched to Lib Dem/Greens. These were the low-hanging fruit Corbyn has managed to alienate. He was never going to win votes from Tory Brexiteers.

Their steadfast refusal to oppose Brexit seems bizarrely targetted towards winning UKIP voters, if anything. Who, predictably, voted Tory instead.
 
Adisa said:
This makes his brexit strategy stupid if that's the case.
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Disagree, the brexit strategy is about not losing future support of the Labour Brexiteers whilst putting pressure on the tories for soft brexit.

There's no substantial gains to be had until brexit resolves but if they went down the route so many here want of not respecting the result that'll be it for Labour.
 
Smores said:
Disagree, the brexit strategy is about not losing future support of the Labour Brexiteers whilst putting pressure on the tories for soft brexit.

There's no substantial gains to be had until brexit resolves but if they went down the route so many here want of not respecting the result that'll be it for Labour.
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So many more than just here, surely?
 
Ubik said:
"Wrong to leave" has a 5 point lead on the last YouGov. Obviously an electoral dead-end.
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It’s definitely possible I’m in an anti-Brexit echo chamber having lived in London and hanging out in this place (which is very critical of Brexit) but surely to feck the majority of Brits have seen by now that what they voted for is not what Brexit actually represents? I refuse to believe that the referendum would have the same result if it happened again tomorrow.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It’s definitely possible I’m in an anti-Brexit echo chamber having lived in London and hanging out in this place (which is very critical of Brexit) but surely to feck the majority of Brits have seen by now that what they voted for is not what Brexit actually represents? I refuse to believe that the referendum would have the same result if it happened again tomorrow.
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I actually think it might.

This Brexit thing is so complex, so tangled, it almost defies unravelling or explaining.

But there is definitely at least one thread running through it, one constituency, that agrees with Ubik's "wrong to leave" assertion - but still thinks we have to go through with it anyway in the name of democratic legitimacy. In essence, yes its wrong, but it is what we voted for and we have to do it anyway. Not saying its a majority opinion, but then who the hell knows what the majority opinion is.

I meet a lot of emboldened Leavers these days. A lot of people who completely reject the notion things will be that bad if we leave. The phrase has gone out of fashion a bit, but its basically the "project fear" argument reincarnated. And I meet a whole load of other people, who probably have more of an overlap with the first lot I said, who feel the UK is being pushed around by a spiteful and vindictive EU, and thinks, basically: "if you are going to treat us like this then screw you, we'll go our own way and let the chips fall where they may." Also people who think yes it will be hard in the short term, but in the long term we'll be better off untethered from a dysfunctional EU.

Conversely I cant think of a single person I have met in real life who was for Brexit but has now changed their mind. I have come across people like that calling into LBC or writing columns or whatever, so I know they exist. But having not actually met anyone like that I have a sense they are over-represented in the media.

Again, based on nothing but my own hunch, I think by far the most people feel exactly the same as they did on the eve of the vote. The argument feels tribal rather than rational. Hence, while it does happen, people switching sides feels about as likely as someone changing their football allegiance.
 
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