Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Oscie said:
The Spectator isn't the far right, in the same way the New Statesman isn't the far left. But why wouldn't he date the editor of the Spectator?

Pretty tragic existence if you chose your personal relationships based on who the other person voted for.
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People are entitled to value different things when it comes to relationships. You're both being silly on this one. There's nothing wrong with wanting your partner to largely agree with your values and there's nothing wrong with having a partner who doesn't.

Plenty of fair reasons to dislike Woodcock. In due course I guess we'll find out if there are ones beyond politics but Hardman isn't one of them.
 
I just don't like this division and 'othering' of people based on who they vote for you get a lot of on the hard left. Especially MPs who've actually done more to oppose and stop the progression of Tory policy than someone who sits there and thinks they're part of some kind of resistance because they've retweeted Aaron Bastini who'll call them a 'Tory' and demand they leave the party.

The mindset here is that if you disagree with Corbyn, even if you also disagree with the Tories - you're a Tory. It's honestly quite frustrating that this is the level debate whenever it comes to the Labour party. There seems to be a whole section of Labour supporters now whose political ideology seems to be that the most important thing is defending the leadership. They're no different to the arse kissers Blair surrounded himself with, but think somehow they are because this time it's them and not somebody else.

But there's no debate any more in the party, at least online. It's either you support whatever it is the official leadership line is - or you're a Tory. Every single argument about anything policy related gets boiled down to that very, very quickly.
 
Oscie said:
I just don't like this division and 'othering' of people based on who they vote for you get a lot of on the hard left. Especially MPs who've actually done more to oppose and stop the progression of Tory policy than someone who sits there and thinks they're part of some kind of resistance because they've retweeted Aaron Bastini who'll call them a 'Tory' and demand they leave the party.

The mindset here is that if you disagree with Corbyn, even if you also disagree with the Tories - you're a Tory. It's honestly quite frustrating that this is the level debate whenever it comes to the Labour party. There seems to be a whole section of Labour supporters now whose political ideology seems to be that the most important thing is defending the leadership. They're no different to the arse kissers Blair surrounded himself with, but think somehow they are because this time it's them and not somebody else.

But there's no debate any more in the party, at least online. It's either you support whatever it is the official leadership line is - or you're a Tory. Every single argument about anything policy related gets boiled down to that very, very quickly.
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There definitely is. There is also a whole section who parrot Tory party arguments just for the sake of opposing Corbyn.

You accuse most people in this thread who reply to you of doing the former and they accuse you of doing the latter. It's monumentally dull. Especially when you spend two pages moaning about three posters disagreeing with you...
 
I only check this thread every couple months, but every time I find Oscie is still terribly unhappy that most people that post in here are pro-Corbyn.
 
Oscie said:
I just don't like this division and 'othering' of people based on who they vote for you get a lot of on the hard left. Especially MPs who've actually done more to oppose and stop the progression of Tory policy than someone who sits there and thinks they're part of some kind of resistance because they've retweeted Aaron Bastini who'll call them a 'Tory' and demand they leave the party.

The mindset here is that if you disagree with Corbyn, even if you also disagree with the Tories - you're a Tory. It's honestly quite frustrating that this is the level debate whenever it comes to the Labour party. There seems to be a whole section of Labour supporters now whose political ideology seems to be that the most important thing is defending the leadership. They're no different to the arse kissers Blair surrounded himself with, but think somehow they are because this time it's them and not somebody else.

But there's no debate any more in the party, at least online. It's either you support whatever it is the official leadership line is - or you're a Tory. Every single argument about anything policy related gets boiled down to that very, very quickly.
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This.

The pejorative 'Tory' taunts are tiresome to be honest. It's not as if all Tories are Nazis in disguise. Blair's as much to blame for this as anyone given the way he demonised the Tories under Major, but seriously, it adds nothing to the debate.

Replace the word 'Tory' with 'witch' and we could be back in Salem in the late 1600s.
 
Oscie said:
The Spectator isn't the far right, in the same way the New Statesman isn't the far left. But why wouldn't he date the editor of the Spectator?

Pretty tragic existence if you chose your personal relationships based on who the other person voted for.
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The Spectator provides a platform for climate change denial. It's far-right no matter how much it might be a part of the establishment.

EDIT: If your magazine employs James Delingpole, Charles Moore and Rod Liddle you are a far-right publication, now matter how much you want to pretend otherwise.
 
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Oscie said:
I just don't like this division and 'othering' of people based on who they vote for you get a lot of on the hard left. Especially MPs who've actually done more to oppose and stop the progression of Tory policy than someone who sits there and thinks they're part of some kind of resistance because they've retweeted Aaron Bastini who'll call them a 'Tory' and demand they leave the party.

The mindset here is that if you disagree with Corbyn, even if you also disagree with the Tories - you're a Tory. It's honestly quite frustrating that this is the level debate whenever it comes to the Labour party. There seems to be a whole section of Labour supporters now whose political ideology seems to be that the most important thing is defending the leadership. They're no different to the arse kissers Blair surrounded himself with, but think somehow they are because this time it's them and not somebody else.

But there's no debate any more in the party, at least online. It's either you support whatever it is the official leadership line is - or you're a Tory. Every single argument about anything policy related gets boiled down to that very, very quickly.
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I am Pro Corbyn but I can still criticise him, as many on the left do.

There's no denying there's a faction on the hard left who berate anyone who happens to have a different opinion, but I haven't seen that on here.

The last few pages have criticised those Labour MPs who have defended Amber Rudd after she's been forced to resign for lying to Parliament. That's a positive for Labour, but instead you have the usual group of MPs who look to defend the right and criticise the left at every opportunity. That doesn't make us a mob or any of the other pejoratives you have used.
 
But just take someone like Jess Phillips who worked in women's refuges and went into politics primarily because of the cuts she saw to front line women's services.

"Tory"
 
I'm with @Oscie on this one. Apart from anything else, the best way to get the fecking Tories out of power has to be by uniting left-leaning voters of every persuasion.

All this in-fighting and accusing anyone who isn't an adamant Corbynista of being right-wing or a Tory just fragments the vote and plays right into the Conservatives hands. Self-defeating nonsense. If the Labour party under Corbyn has any chance of doing better than the open goal it missed in the last general election then it needs to be more inclusive, not less.

EDIT: I'm not saying the name-calling is happening on redcafe. Am talking about Twitter etc. where it's fecking rife.
 
Oscie said:
I just don't like this division and 'othering' of people based on who they vote for you get a lot of on the hard left. Especially MPs who've actually done more to oppose and stop the progression of Tory policy than someone who sits there and thinks they're part of some kind of resistance because they've retweeted Aaron Bastini who'll call them a 'Tory' and demand they leave the party.

The mindset here is that if you disagree with Corbyn, even if you also disagree with the Tories - you're a Tory. It's honestly quite frustrating that this is the level debate whenever it comes to the Labour party. There seems to be a whole section of Labour supporters now whose political ideology seems to be that the most important thing is defending the leadership. They're no different to the arse kissers Blair surrounded himself with, but think somehow they are because this time it's them and not somebody else.

But there's no debate any more in the party, at least online. It's either you support whatever it is the official leadership line is - or you're a Tory. Every single argument about anything policy related gets boiled down to that very, very quickly.
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Whether Corbyn and his supporters are right or wrong, good or bad, this does create a problem for Labour, in that they've effectively been building in their own ceiling to party support. I'm sure it's great fun for people to attack 'blairites' and 'red tories' but that will seem a little hollow come the next general election, when it's time to ask those same people to vote for them.
 
Oscie said:
But just take someone like Jess Phillips who worked in women's refuges and went into politics primarily because of the cuts she saw to front line women's services.

"Tory"
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Are you seriously suggesting any of this should render it impossible for her to hold right wing views?
 
712 said:
Whether Corbyn and his supporters are right or wrong, good or bad, this does create a problem for Labour, in that they've effectively been building in their own ceiling to party support. I'm sure it's great fun for people to attack 'blairites' and 'red tories' but that will seem a little hollow come the next general election, when it's time to ask those same people to vote for them.
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As if any of us know what happens at elections. The MRLP could claim seats, given how much we lie to pollsters these days.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
I didn't suggest any, Pogue :)
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Cool. Because anyone accusing her of being a Tory (or right-wing) because of saying something like this needs their heads examined.

“I actually feel for Amber Rudd because she has had to clear up the mess that has been left by Theresa May,” said Phillips, “She has inherited a Home Office with a culture of bullying and mistreating migrants and a system that is broken and corrupt. It’s Theresa May’s doing and she has left Amber with a sticky wicket.”
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Pogue Mahone said:
Cool. Because anyone accusing her of being a Tory (or right-wing) because of saying something like this needs their heads examined.
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If that was all the evidence, of course. I imagine others will come fourth with further evidence but that is not my expertise.

It looks bad though. In the moment you think more of the wealthy woman who lost her job than those deported that led to it.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
As if any of us know what happens at elections. The MRLP could claim seats, given how much we lie to pollsters these days.
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I wasn't trying to predict the result, just describing what I think will be a significant drag on Labour support.

As it happens the two biggest setbacks in my gambling career were both on politics, it's a minefield for the bettor.
 
712 said:
I wasn't trying to predict the result, just describing what I think will be a significant drag on Labour support.

As it happens the two biggest setbacks in my gambling career were both on politics, it's a minefield for the bettor.
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:lol:

Understood. We all make our predictions in the safe knowledge we're all fecking wrong now.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I'm with @Oscie on this one. Apart from anything else, the best way to get the fecking Tories out of power has to be by uniting left-leaning voters of every persuasion.

All this in-fighting and accusing anyone who isn't an adamant Corbynista of being right-wing or a Tory just fragments the vote and plays right into the Conservatives hands. Self-defeating nonsense. If the Labour party under Corbyn has any chance of doing better than the open goal it missed in the last general election then it needs to be more inclusive, not less.

EDIT: I'm not saying the name-calling is happening on redcafe. Am talking about Twitter etc. where it's fecking rife.
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Bingo. This attack on anyone remotely moderate or *gasp* centrist, is bizarre.

If I'm left-leaning, that should be good enough. I shouldn't need to be a Trot to satisfy the Corbynistas.
 
Minimalist said:
As flippant as it may sound, anyone that gets accused of being a namby pamby liberal by right-wingers for their views, I should think.
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I see. I think this is potentially a good description of difference. I'm no liberal - as reasonable as I occasionally try to be. Not too many people in momentum feel very 'namby pamby'.

It's a left wing party, these days.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Cool. Because anyone accusing her of being a Tory (or right-wing) because of saying something like this needs their heads examined.
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She's not a Tory, but trying to absolve a Home Secretary from all blame when she's been in the job nearly two years is a stretch. There's no doubt this culture started with May, but Rudd did nothing to reverse the changes May made in her 22 months in charge.

Rudd lied to Parliament and was caught out. No sympathy should be had.

On top if that she is trying to deport a witness to a key case. The woman is a cretin, and with such a slim majority she will hopefully be out of a job after the next election.
 
Untied said:
Richard Angell surrounds his twitter handle in brackets. He’s pretty right wing.
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Isn't sporting these supposed to be opposition to alt-right online harassment? Or am I misunderstanding sarcasm again here (happens from time to time)?
 
esmufc07 said:
She's not a Tory, but trying to absolve a Home Secretary from all blame when she's been in the job nearly two years is a stretch. There's no doubt this culture started with May, but Rudd did nothing to reverse the changes May made in her 22 months in charge.

Rudd lied to Parliament and was caught out. No sympathy should be had.

On top if that she is trying to deport a witness to a key case. The woman is a cretin, and with such a slim majority she will hopefully be out of a job after the next election.
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I honestly don't know why the likes of Phillips feel the need to speak up on Rudd's behalf. I can only assume that Rudd is someone who has built up a reputation amongst fellow politicians (from both sides of the divide) of being one of the good guys. I always quite like it when politicians from the left speak up for politicians from the right and vice versa. It shows that they're capable of seeing beyond party political sniping and the habit that a lot of the electorate have formed of needing demonise everyone who doesn't share your politics. It's also reassuring to know that at least some of the useless cnuts are competent/dilligent enough to inspire respect from opposition MPs.

I also don't know enough about the ins and out of what's happened to be certain about whether these issues are all down to Rudd or whether she's a convenient patsy, sacrificed to appease the public because she couldn't fix systemic issues that predated her time in the job. The latter scenario is definitely possible.

Or maybe this all just a case of one liberal, pro-European, female politician supporting another?

Whatever, she's gone now. If some politicians feel the need to speak up on her behalf that's their perogative. It doesn't make them Tory-lite or whatever other term of abuse the hard left want to use to slag off people who don't toe the party line on every single issue.
 
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Pogue Mahone said:
I honestly don't know why the likes of Phillips feel the need to speak up on Rudd's behalf. I can only assume that she's someone who has built up a reputation amongst fellow politicians (from both sides of the divide) of being one of the good guys. I always quite like it when politicians from the left speak up for politicians from the right and vice versa. It shows that they're capable of seeing beyond party political sniping and the habit that a lot of the electorate have formed of needing demonise everyone who doesn't share your politics.

I also don't know enough about the ins and out of what's happened to know whether these issues are all down to Rudd or whether she's a convenient patsy, sacrificed to appease the public because she couldn't fix systemic issues that predated her time in the job. The latter scenario is definitely possible. Whatever, she's gone now. If some politicians feel the need to speak up on her behalf that's their perogative. It doesn't make them Tory-lite or whatever other term of abuse the hard left want to use to slag off people who don't toe the party line on every single issue.
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It potentially indicates they are much fonder of Tories than most of the Labour party membership find imaginable - if your description of friendliness is remotely accurate.

It's terribly easy to 'agree to disagree' when it doesn't really matter. It's not so easy when it affects whether or not you get the benefits you rely upon.
 
Untied said:
Richard Angell surrounds his twitter handle in brackets. He’s pretty right wing.
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Synco said:
Isn't sporting these supposed to be opposition to alt-right online harassment? Or am I misunderstanding sarcasm again here (happens from time to time)?
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The brackets signify opposition to antisemitism. No idea why that would be considered right-wing (or why climate change denial makes one "far-right" for that matter).
 
Minimalist said:
Bingo. This attack on anyone remotely moderate or *gasp* centrist, is bizarre.

If I'm left-leaning, that should be good enough. I shouldn't need to be a Trot to satisfy the Corbynistas.
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Er yeah trot aren't that left wing and they are dislike by most of the Labour left.
 
2cents said:
The brackets signify opposition to antisemitism. No idea why that would be considered right-wing (or why climate change denial makes one "far-right" for that matter).
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Yeah, that's why I suspect I may have just missed obvious sarcasm in @Untied's post and everyone's rolling their eyes now. Especially since Angell's twitter looks full-on SJW and quite likeable at first sight.
 
The reason they're disliked is obvious - people feel that these careerists would swap parties at the drop of a hat.
 
Synco said:
Yeah, that's why I suspect I may have just missed obvious sarcasm in @Untied's post and everyone's rolling their eyes now. Especially since Angell's twitter looks full-on SJW and quite likeable at first sight.
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Ah yeah, looks like he got me.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Or maybe this all just a case of one liberal, pro-European, female politician supporting another?
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We're talking about the Jess Phillips that people have only heard of, outside her constituency, because she made up a story about telling Diane Abbott to feck off, right? Who then followed that up by going on the BBC just prior to the election to laugh and joke about how crap she is with Tory MPs?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
:confused:
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Oh you were being serious. Jess has been dining out on her made up story about telling Diane Abbott to feck off (and then publicly wondering why more people don't do it - then acted shocked and appalled when thousands of people continue to do just that) for years, she's become the media darling she is almost entirely because of it. Well, that and her willingness to appear in any TV, radio or print media segment about how she's best mates with Tory MPs, especially anti-abortion (even in cases of rape/incest) and dining partner to people who advocate the repatriation of "non-indigenous" Britons, Jacob Rees-Mogg. Before her big media break, her only other political claim to fame outside of Birmingham Yardley was ousting Dawn Butler as chair of the Women's Parliamentary Labour Party.

So, at best, her supporting of women in politics is a little more selective than that of people in opposing parties.
 
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