Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Honest John said:
All this because I dared to venture that I have worked hard.
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I'm sure you did but so do a lot of people and their situation is still awful. And I only say this out of complete frustration as I've seen the awful effects this type of politics has had. I've been in a NHS service so drained of money that when people openly admit to self harming nothing can be done as the resources have been took away there, I know someone who has only being able to see their disabled child on weekends or on school holidays due to school closers, I knew someone who was so clearly struggling with depression and anxiety due to their awful job but continued to do this job anyway as they were terrified that if they quit they would be seen as benefits cheat, a loser, someone who doesn't work hard etc. And I say this as someone who is very lucky to live in a very rich area of the UK.


In the end it's not about blaming individuals(Although my point might come across like that)but rather blaming and attacking political ideas and the political ideas of the last 30 odd years have destroyed not only this country but countless others as well.
 
Sweet Square said:
I'm sure you did but so do a lot of people and their situation is still awful. And I only say this out of complete frustration as I've seen the awful effects this type of politics has had. I've been in a NHS service so drained of money that when people openly admit to self harming nothing can be done as the resources have been took away there, I know someone who has only being able to see their disabled child on weekends or on school holidays due to school closers, I knew someone who was so clearly struggling with depression and anxiety due to their awful job but continued to do this job anyway as they were terrified that if they quit they would be seen as benefits cheat, a loser, someone who doesn't work hard etc. And I say this as someone who is very lucky to live in a very rich area of the UK.


In the end it's not about blaming individual(Although my point might come across like that)but rather blaming and attacking political ideas.
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I can see all that but would suggest that the problems you have described about the people you know were the same when I was young. Labour, Tory, coalition, whatever has not made those things disappear. My brother died in 2015. Aged 53. Collapsed in his cell in Bicester Prison. Substance abuse, alcoholism, abject anti-social behaviour. He had Personality Disorder (we now know) and became an institutionalised prisoner. Looking back, this was all apparent when he was a child. In todays world it would not have been missed. Back then - the good old 60's and 70's - nobody gave a feck. The schools deemed him a naughty boy and meted out all manner of punishment to try and make him comply. To my own shame, I was even guilty of shunning him because he'd rob me as soon as look at me and I had a wife and family to think of. The doctors did nothing. He died of Emphysema and TB with lungs described by the registrar as unfit to support human life.

I remember watching Question Time in the 70's with Robin Day and the NHS, Education and the Economy attracted the same amount of criticism then as they do now.
 
Honest John said:
I can see all that but would suggest that the problems you have described about the people you know were the same when I was young. Labour, Tory, coalition, whatever has not made those things disappear. My brother died in 2015. Aged 53. Collapsed in his cell in Bicester Prison. Substance abuse, alcoholism, abject anti-social behaviour. He had Personality Disorder (we now know) and became an institutionalised prisoner. Looking back, this was all apparent when he was a child. In todays world it would not have been missed. Back then - the good old 60's and 70's - nobody gave a feck. The schools deemed him a naughty boy and meted out all manner of punishment to try and make him comply. To my own shame, I was even guilty of shunning him because he'd rob me as soon as look at me and I had a wife and family to think of. The doctors did nothing. He died of Emphysema and TB with lungs described by the registrar as unfit to support human life.

I remember watching Question Time in the 70's with Robin Day and the NHS, Education and the Economy attracted the same amount of criticism then as they do now.
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God that's awful, sorry that you had go through something like that. You are right that we have made huge strides in tackling these sorts of issues in the last few decades but with the right funding and(Now here maybe I'm a bit blind sided)with a potentially radical Labour party we could giant strides forwards and really change the country for the better.
 
Honest John said:
It's all relative. By the same yardstick all those on here bemoaning how dreadful things are and how us baby-boomers are clueless about anything and how the government has completely made their lives a misery should also look to the starving of the third world.
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Congratulations. This is the worst argument you've come out with.

(Also I take it at this point that your username is deliberately ironic?)
 
GazTheLegend said:
Political point scoring over this Russia thing has put me right off Corbyn.

If there's ever a time to show unity in terms of politics, its in the face of thugs like Putin. Us showing divisiveness will be LOVED by the Kremlin, that's literally rule 1 of their propaganda playbook - get your enemies to argue among themselves while you plunder their neighbours.
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Surely a prerequisite of the approach you've positioned is that we're accurate with our accusations? You're not suggesting that he should get on board irrespective?

Assuming you agree, isn't it then incredibly important the opposition actually oppose to ensure proper due-diligence and checks and balance?

You claim political point scoring but in no world did anyone in Labour think questioning the goverment on this would be popular.
 
Fully Fledged said:
Yes telling the truth is political point scoring now.

The fact is we got the whole world to support us based on the idea that we had genuine information backing up our claim that the Russian State tried to murder so one on our soil. As soon as truth that it was all based on a lie came out we were going to look like clowns. Having someone around that didn't peddle the lie is a good thing.

Twice now Prime Minsters have tried to get him to accept a lie so that they could start an international incident. Both times he refused and spoke out against the wrongness of making up facts to support your agenda. Both times he was right.
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This isn't what happened. People were accepting of the idea that the novichok was of Russian manufacture before Johnson's interview with a German TV station, even Jeremy Corbyn said as much 5 days before said interview.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Congratulations. This is the worst argument you've come out with.

(Also I take it at this point that your username is deliberately ironic?)
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Ok now lets break this down.

You diss me because I said that I have 'worked hard' by putting that statement up against the plight of slaves in the Congo.

I counter by suggesting that those - with all their bitterness about the poor lot they are receiving compared to us lucky bastards from the 60's and 70's - using the above yardstick you should compare their circumstances to the starving of the 3rd world.

Why is that not a fair argument?

"Hi Doctor - I don't feel well".
"But You're not dead"
"Ok I'll feck off"
 
Ubik said:
This isn't what happened. People were accepting of the idea that the novichok was of Russian manufacture before Johnson's interview with a German TV station, even Jeremy Corbyn said as much 5 days before said interview.
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Exactly. Just because Johnson is imprecise with language doesn't mean the rest of us have to be. This being a Russian sponsored attack is still by far the most plausible explanation. Johnson is an idiot and should be sacked, but that is a separate issue.
 
Honest John said:
You diss me because I said that I have 'worked hard' by putting that statement up against the plight of slaves in the Congo.

I counter by suggesting that those - with all their bitterness about the poor lot they are receiving compared to us lucky bastards from the 60's and 70's - using the above yardstick you should compare their circumstances to the starving of the 3rd world.

Why is that not a fair argument?
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he was pointing out that the vast majority of people on planet work hard, most of them harder than you with a fraction of the reward, and you applied your trademark idiotic logic to it
 
Smores said:
Surely a prerequisite of the approach you've positioned is that we're accurate with our accusations? You're not suggesting that he should get on board irrespective?

Assuming you agree, isn't it then incredibly important the opposition actually oppose to ensure proper due-diligence and checks and balance?

You claim political point scoring but in no world did anyone in Labour think questioning the goverment on this would be popular.
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The problem with Corbyn is you can't shake the notion that he's all to willing to give thugs the benefit of the doubt. That's why his response to this was widely distrusted. And I don't think Boris Johnson being incompetent makes Corbyn's call any more correct. They were both wrong.
 
Honest John said:
Ok now lets break this down.
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Lets break this down properly:

You diss me because I said that I have 'worked hard'
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No I didn't.

by putting that statement up against the plight of slaves in the Congo.
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No I didn't.




I counter by suggesting that those - with all their bitterness about the poor lot they are receiving compared to us lucky bastards from the 60's and 70's - using the above yardstick you should compare their circumstances to the starving of the 3rd world.
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The poster you are actually referring to (who wasn't me) said that workers in third world countries work harder than anyone and, if hard work was the only barrier to success. They would be more successful than anyone. As they're not it suggests that there are always circumstances outside our control that dictate how much we can achieve.

Personally, I'm not convinced that was a great argument either, but it's not as ridiculous as yours.

Why is that not a fair argument?
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Because it is demonstrably misrepresenting the original point and twisting it to make an absurd statement on privilege that misses the point by an incredible margin.

"Hi Doctor - I don't feel well".
"But You're not dead"
"Ok I'll feck off"
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That sounds like an unfortunate experience you had. Maybe if you voted for a party that was committed to properly funding the NHS then your doctor would have had more time to deal with less serious complaints. :smirk:
 
Ubik said:
This isn't what happened. People were accepting of the idea that the novichok was of Russian manufacture before Johnson's interview with a German TV station, even Jeremy Corbyn said as much 5 days before said interview.
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Where did people get this information? So far there is no evidence to prove that it was Russian made. Yeah Russia developed the nerve agent in the first place but that doesn't mean they are the only ones who can produce it now.

Show me your evidence that Russia made it.
 
nickm said:
The problem with Corbyn is you can't shake the notion that he's all to willing to give thugs the benefit of the doubt. That's why his response to this was widely distrusted. And I don't think Boris Johnson being incompetent makes Corbyn's call any more correct. They were both wrong.
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Odd thing to say about someone who has protested all his life. Apathetic he is not.

I'm not sure which action you think he was wrong on? PR wise definitly but not on substance i don't think
 
Fully Fledged said:
Where did people get this information? So far there is no evidence to prove that it was Russian made. Yeah Russia developed the nerve agent in the first place but that doesn't mean they are the only ones who can produce it now.

Show me your evidence that Russia made it.
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This is a pretty good article on the strength of the case against Russia.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/long-read-does-the-uks-case-against-russia-stack-up

The information to definitively prove it was Russia is not in the public domain, but I think the evidence strongly points that way anyway (even with the clarification on what Porton Down did). It seems almost ridiculous to argue that the UK government has disclosed all the information it has on this in public, but the case made was felt compelling enough for an unprecedented post-cold war expulsion of diplomats including from America with a president who has appeared pally with Putin over the years.

I'm yet to see any one be able to make a convincing case for it not being Russia.
 
Fully Fledged said:
Yes telling the truth is political point scoring now.

The fact is we got the whole world to support us based on the idea that we had genuine information backing up our claim that the Russian State tried to murder so one on our soil. As soon as truth that it was all based on a lie came out we were going to look like clowns. Having someone around that didn't peddle the lie is a good thing.

Twice now Prime Minsters have tried to get him to accept a lie so that they could start an international incident. Both times he refused and spoke out against the wrongness of making up facts to support your agenda. Both times he was right.
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This is't true. We got international support from intelligence based evidence along with the circumstantial evidence from the chemical agent analysis.

Bojo dropped a major bollock by misrepresenting the nature of the evidence from Porton Down and has played into Putin's hands.

Last I heard international support remained the same?
 
Sorry for mixing up the posters.

All I said was that "I have been lucky but I have worked hard too"

It was just a statement of how I feel relative to the life I have lived in this country.

And somebody chucks slaves in the Congo in my face. Which I found incredibly patronising.
 
Honest John said:
Sorry for mixing up the posters.

All I said was that "I have been lucky but I have worked hard too"

It was just a statement of how I feel relative to the life I have lived in this country.

And somebody chucks slaves in the Congo in my face. Which I found incredibly patronising.
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what's patronising is telling people who are struggling in life to work hard like you did, despite them getting fecked in the ass by a broken system you're voting to propagate
 
Fully Fledged said:
Where did people get this information? So far there is no evidence to prove that it was Russian made. Yeah Russia developed the nerve agent in the first place but that doesn't mean they are the only ones who can produce it now.

Show me your evidence that Russia made it.
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Now you're changing your argument. You stated the support for believing it was Russia was based on a lie, and I gave a direct example of someone (Jeremy Corbyn no less) believing the agent was taken from Russia, 5 days prior to Johnson's interview. So what is backing up your idea that it's all based on a lie?
 
Honest John said:
Sorry for mixing up the posters.

All I said was that "I have been lucky but I have worked hard too"

It was just a statement of how I feel relative to the life I have lived in this country.

And somebody chucks slaves in the Congo in my face. Which I found incredibly patronising.
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Well at least you now know how it feels, eh?
 
Yeah the story is Boris fecking up(Again) and that this feck up is hardly been reported by the BBC.

Honest John said:
Sorry for mixing up the posters.

All I said was that "I have been lucky but I have worked hard too"

It was just a statement of how I feel relative to the life I have lived in this country.

And somebody chucks slaves in the Congo in my face. Which I found incredibly patronising.
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I was using it as a example of how hard work doesn't actually get people very far in life.
 
Smores said:
Odd thing to say about someone who has protested all his life. Apathetic he is not.

I'm not sure which action you think he was wrong on? PR wise definitly but not on substance i don't think
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In an information war, in which we are all clearly engaged, PR matters. An obscure Russian chemical weapon, which requires state support to make and store, gets used on an enemy of Putin, in a similar way that other such weapons have been used by Russian agents, putting hundreds of British citizens at risk? And Corbyn's opening response was all about due process? Weak and dangerous. What do you think Putin thinks of Corbyn? A pushover, I'd say.
 
NinjaFletch said:
This is a pretty good article on the strength of the case against Russia.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/long-read-does-the-uks-case-against-russia-stack-up

The information to definitively prove it was Russia is not in the public domain, but I think the evidence strongly points that way anyway (even with the clarification on what Porton Down did). It seems almost ridiculous to argue that the UK government has disclosed all the information it has on this in public, but the case made was felt compelling enough for an unprecedented post-cold war expulsion of diplomats including from America with a president who has appeared pally with Putin over the years.

I'm yet to see any one be able to make a convincing case for it not being Russia.
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That article proves my point.

“I think, on the basis of the chemistry, the evidence against Russia is very strong,” adds Dr Guthrie. “I would categorise it as strong evidence, but not proof at this point.
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nickm said:
In an information war, in which we are all clearly engaged, PR matters. An obscure Russian chemical weapon, which requires state support to make and store, gets used on an enemy of Putin, in a similar way that other such weapons have been used by Russian agents, putting hundreds of British citizens at risk? And Corbyn's opening response was all about due process? Weak and dangerous. What do you think Putin thinks of Corbyn? A pushover, I'd say.
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Yeah, Corbz is a total pussy, he doesn't even line his pockets with Rubles like those tough tories over there, and what even are these economic sanctions against oligarchs he keeps talking about?
 
Classical Mechanic said:
This is't true. We got international support from intelligence based evidence along with the circumstantial evidence from the chemical agent analysis.

Bojo dropped a major bollock by misrepresenting the nature of the evidence from Porton Down and has played into Putin's hands.

Last I heard international support remained the same?
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It will do but Boris has put us in a really bad position. We were caught before making up evidence to start a war. Him lying about this makes us look really bad again.
 
Fully Fledged said:
It will do but Boris has put us in a really bad position. We were caught before making up evidence to start a war. Him lying about this makes us look really bad again.
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Our international allies would have been presented with the full dossier on the incident, they won't have been referring to dopey Boris for guidance.

Silva said:
Yeah, Corbz is a total pussy, he doesn't even line his pockets with Rubles like those tough tories over there, and what even are these economic sanctions against oligarchs he keeps talking about?
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Didn't RT pay him £2k an appearance or something?
 
Fully Fledged said:
That article proves my point.
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Only if your point is that we need a smoking gun to draw a conclusion, which we don't. There is sufficient evidence, on the balance of probabilities, to suspect Russian state involvement over other explanations at this point.
 
Ubik said:
Now you're changing your argument. You stated the support for believing it was Russia was based on a lie, and I gave a direct example of someone (Jeremy Corbyn no less) believing the agent was taken from Russia, 5 days prior to Johnson's interview. So what is backing up your idea that it's all based on a lie?
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It was based on the evidence that Boris was touting around. You really think the first time that line was used was in that interview. There was a text from the Forging Office stating what he said which has since been taken down.
 
nickm said:
Only if your point is that we need a smoking gun to draw a conclusion, which we don't. There is sufficient evidence, on the balance of probabilities, to suspect Russian state involvement over other explanations at this point.
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The same kind of evidence as we had against Saddam. Look how that worked out.
 
Silva said:
Yeah, Corbz is a total pussy, he doesn't even line his pockets with Rubles like those tough tories over there, and what even are these economic sanctions against oligarchs he keeps talking about?
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If that's a defence, it's a pretty poor one. And Corbyn pockets Putin's propaganda money, let's not forget, every time he goes on RT.

There's plenty of blame to go around. At the moment, focusing on Corbyn and Johnson - who both aspire to be PMs let's not forget - seems sufficient.
 
Fully Fledged said:
The same kind of evidence as we had against Saddam. Look how that worked out.
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This is silly. We don't need the same evidential standard. We're not going to war, we're telling the Russians to feck off and stop using radioactive poisons and chemical weapons in our country. which I think we are totally entitled to do, on the evidence that we have.
 
Fully Fledged said:
It was based on the evidence that Boris was touting around. You really think the first time that line was used was in that interview. There was a text from the Forging Office stating what he said which has since been taken down.
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The tweet from the foreign office was two days after the Boris interview. So now you're just making up previous briefings where he'd said the same thing (which Corbyn hasn't mentioned happening, as far as I'm aware) to justify your previous statement.
 
Fully Fledged said:
That article proves my point.
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Right, sure, and if your argument is that you strongly suspect Russia did it based on the evidence we have available to us, but aren't convinced that the point is proven then fine.

If you're arguing that the evidence is so weak you don't think the Russia link has any basis whatsoever, as you appear to be, then I would argue you're wrong.
 
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