Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Silva said:
The Canada model is incompatible with the good Friday agreement. You can't close the NI/Republic border. And the government is in bed with the DUP so they can't create regulatory divergence from NI to the mainland.
Click to expand...

My point was that other 'models' have been devised and agreed to suit varying circumstances and arrangements. So, we need one more.

There is a border between north and south now. Vehicles are stopped albeit randomly and with reason. So there are checks. It is not beyond the wit of the EU and UK to solve this. It is in the EU's interest as well as ours.
 
Honest John said:
My point was that other 'models' have been devised and agreed to suit varying circumstances and arrangements. So, we need one more.

There is a border between north and south now. Vehicles are stopped albeit randomly and with reason. So there are checks. It is not beyond the wit of the EU and UK to solve this. It is in the EU's interest as well as ours.
Click to expand...
The EU has solved it. Regulatory divergence between NI and the mainland. Effectively annexing NI.

Britain has only offered the same vacuous words you are.
 
Silva said:
The EU has solved it. Regulatory divergence between NI and the mainland. Effectively annexing NI.

Britain has only offered the same vacuous words you are.
Click to expand...
As I understand it that is a back-stop position. Why must any solution be based on an existing model? Why can't a different model be negotiated?
 
Honest John said:
This all costs money and if you really think that taxing the rich and business is going to pay for it then think again.
Click to expand...

Why not? Go after multi-nationals or IP ban their websites on all British ISPs. Increase higher earners tax to 55%, Add wealth taxes like a yearly mansion tax, which increases at a higher percent depending on the value of the property. A yearly luxury car tax at an increasing higher percentage related to car cost with all cars seized and auctioned if not in . A second home anual tax as percentage of second home value. And a higher earner corporation tax because corporations shouldn't pay a lesser percentage than individuals. There's plenty of ways to tax the rich that aren't used instead most taxs hit the poor, ie 'sugar tax' is aimed at the poor.

Honest John said:
The Tories big mistake during the last election was that they should have kicked massive holes in Corbyn's pie-in-the-sky totally unfunded promises. Don't you see? He, by all accounts was going to get hammered. He could promise the earth in the sure knowledge he would never have to deliver. Boom! all the kids buy it.
Click to expand...

The Tories big mistake was running an election campaign on 'Yes but Jeremy Corbyn' on every question of their failings.

Honest John said:
Can you not see the paradox that if you tax business, they will feck off elsewhere. If you tax the rich (like in the 70's) they will too. If the rich go and businesses go then unemployment will rise. Welfare payments will rise and eventually they will have no choice but to tax all of us. When I started work in 75 the basic rate of tax was 35% rising to 83%. All that was used for was to prop up failing industries. Public services were crap because they were always on strike for more pay because their bloody taxes were too high!
Click to expand...

And since then it's gone too far the other way where tax avoiders get away with paying next to nothing and essentially steal from the system. Wealth creators aren't wealth creators if their workers are living in poverty.

Amazon, Ebay and Facebook can feck off elsewhere and the those that pay higher taxes will make profits off the British internet if they won't pay for the privildge. Currently they're getting the British internet for free and probably doing dirty deals to get away with it.
 
Honest John said:
As I understand it that is a back-stop position. Why must any solution be based on an existing model? Why can't a different model be negotiated?
Click to expand...

These models take years - if not decades - to agree.
 
Given the heart attack that the EU suffered on the referendum result and the sheer terror of other countries following suit you'd think they'd make some compromise and give special leave Ireland to enter into a bi-lateral agreement with the UK based on the common travel area that exists between the nations (which pre-dates the EU) and the contents of the Good Friday agreement.
 
Honest John said:
Given the heart attack that the EU suffered on the referendum result and the sheer terror of other countries following suit you'd think they'd make some compromise and give special leave Ireland to enter into a bi-lateral agreement with the UK based on the common travel area that exists between the nations (which pre-dates the EU) and the contents of the Good Friday agreement.
Click to expand...
EU favourability went up after the Brexit vote and has only been increasing, Britain getting fecked is going to be the best thing to happen for EU unity.
 
Cheesy said:
These models take years - if not decades - to agree.
Click to expand...

Silva said:
because there's less than a year left, a new bespoke trade agreement takes about a decade to agree
Click to expand...

Are we not looking for a bespoke agreement then? Should we be looking at an off-the-shelf solution? If so. Which one? You've already said Canada doesn't work because of the Irish problem and because it doesn't include services. EAA as in Norway etc. means accepting free movement and fee's for access - could they sell that to the country? When you look at it the path being taken is the only logical one. That is control of borders, laws and money -some bespoke trade deal with the EU, the ability to strike other deals and a resolution to the Irish border.
 
Honest John said:
Are we not looking for a bespoke agreement then? Should we be looking at an off-the-shelf solution? If so. Which one? You've already said Canada doesn't work because of the Irish problem and because it doesn't include services. EAA as in Norway etc. means accepting free movement and fee's for access - could they sell that to the country? When you look at it the path being taken is the only logical one. That is control of borders, laws and money -some bespoke trade deal with the EU, the ability to strike other deals and a resolution to the Irish border.
Click to expand...
This is a pretty easy one. Cancel Brexit, vote labour in, and laugh at all the pensioners trying to riot about it.
 
Silva said:
EU favourability went up after the Brexit vote and has only been increasing, Britain getting fecked is going to be the best thing to happen for EU unity.
Click to expand...
Not in Italy. Or Greece - their ordeal is far from over. In fact some studies reckon that a similar vote in a number of EU states would produce a mighty close if not the same result as the UK.
The EU are fools for not reforming and taking account of changing attitudes. The Common Market was a good idea. The current situation with the EU, is not what the majority of UK people envisaged.
 
Honest John said:
Given the heart attack that the EU suffered on the referendum result and the sheer terror of other countries following suit you'd think they'd make some compromise and give special leave Ireland to enter into a bi-lateral agreement with the UK based on the common travel area that exists between the nations (which pre-dates the EU) and the contents of the Good Friday agreement.
Click to expand...

You're not understanding that this is nothing to do with the EU. A Hard Brexit means a hard border. The only reason The Good Friday Agreement was possible was because of the EU allowing a frictionless border. Without a hard border there is effectively no Brexit so Britain has the problem to either force a hard border on Ireland or create a hard border with any goods coming from Nothern Ireland, both are unacceptable solutions to either side in NI.
 
Silva said:
The republicans would be delighted with an Irish customs union, the unionists delighted with a hard Irish border. The only acceptable solution to both sides is the current one.
Click to expand...

What are the reprocussions of a hard border from Sin Fein? Presumably that's the destination that we're heading towards.
 
WackyWengerWorld said:
What are the reprocussions of a hard border from Sin Fein? Presumably that's the destination that we're heading towards.
Click to expand...
Their ideological underpinning is to see a united Ireland. But they've settled for a situation where they power share with unionists and have double nationality. If there is a hard border between the north and the republic, the deal between the two groups falls apart.
 
Silva said:
This is a pretty easy one. Cancel Brexit, vote labour in, and laugh at all the pensioners trying to riot about it.
Click to expand...
Apart from the Labour bit there is some of me that would go with that. I was appalled at the result. As I said I was a remainer. Not entirely happy with the EU but I thought it better to stay in and try to reform. I run an engineering company and we employ 40 people. 90% of my business is in the aerospace sector and 60% comes either directly or indirectly from Airbus. There is no way that I ever wanted that to be put into question. In fact I am still nervous about the eventual outcome. But we either try and make the best of it or we overturn it and say feck you to 52% of the electorate. (and they will be pissed off with anything that looks like EU by the back door). Who then would we be to preach to the EU about not being democratic? The problem is that the arguments have become polarised to the point of families falling out and all sorts. I think everyone wants the best for this country but also everyone wants to see democracy served. If the final deal goes to a vote and it is rejected by Parliament then there are only two remaining course of action. Either we stay put or we go to the Country again - with the right questions and informed choices this time.
 
Honest John said:
Apart from the Labour bit there is some of me that would go with that. I was appalled at the result. As I said I was a remainer. Not entirely happy with the EU but I thought it better to stay in and try to reform. I run an engineering company and we employ 40 people. 90% of my business is in the aerospace sector and 60% comes either directly or indirectly from Airbus. There is no way that I ever wanted that to be put into question. In fact I am still nervous about the eventual outcome. But we either try and make the best of it or we overturn it and say feck you to 52% of the electorate. (and they will be pissed off with anything that looks like EU by the back door). Who then would we be to preach to the EU about not being democratic? The problem is that the arguments have become polarised to the point of families falling out and all sorts. I think everyone wants the best for this country but also everyone wants to see democracy served. If the final deal goes to a vote and it is rejected by Parliament then there are only two remaining course of action. Either we stay put or we go to the Country again - with the right questions and informed choices this time.
Click to expand...
Who are we to preach democracy now? Parties win power with as little as 35% of the vote, we have a monarchy and an unelected house of lords. This country has never been about democracy.
 
Silva said:
Their ideological underpinning is to see a united Ireland. But they've settled for a situation where they power share with unionists and have double nationality. If there is a hard border between the north and the republic, the deal between the two groups falls apart.
Click to expand...

Just been reading their position and they aren't happy but without taking their seats or resorting to violence they can't stop this. I'd imagine they aren't going to do either and The Tories will just push through a hard border and Ireland presumably will maintain the dual nationality
 
WackyWengerWorld said:
Just been reading their position and they aren't happy but without taking their seats or resorting to violence they can't stop this. I'd imagine they aren't going to do either and The Tories will just push through a hard border and Ireland presumably will maintain the dual nationality
Click to expand...
both sides have terrorist arms though, it wouldn't be shocking to see that reemerge.
 
As much as the patronising bollocks Honest John started this debate with hacked me off I do think that his posts sum up the problem Labour have under Corbyn which is that, whilst I think if Honest John was honest he would admit he could do more to critically evaluate information he receives, he represents something close to the battle ground in British politics: Remain voter, mid 40s, intelligent, probably primarily receives information through traditional media sources (and therefore primarily through a Dacre/Murdoch/Desmond lens). The fact that we get the Conservative attack lines and 'the EU is more desperate for a deal' fantasy fiction reflected back verbatim is worrying.

I don't really know how Labour (or pro-Remain supports) address that issue, but the fact outright lies get dressed up as facts and trotted out day in day out is a huge problem.
 
WackyWengerWorld said:
Just been reading their position and they aren't happy but without taking their seats or resorting to violence they can't stop this. I'd imagine they aren't going to do either and The Tories will just push through a hard border and Ireland presumably will maintain the dual nationality
Click to expand...

Sinn Fein themselves won't resort to violence and will just try to use it to their political advantage - the problem is fringe groups who see this as an excuse to commence violence again. It won't get to troubles level stuff but it could be problematic, and if that happens the UK government should be condemned for creating a situation they knew could emerge but allowed to flourish due to party politics.
 
NinjaFletch said:
As much as the patronising bollocks Honest John started this debate with hacked me off I do think that his posts sum up the problem Labour have under Corbyn which is that, whilst I think if Honest John was honest he would admit he could do more to critically evaluate information he receives, he represents something close to the battle ground in British politics: Remain voter, mid 40s, intelligent, probably primarily receives information through traditional media sources (and therefore primarily through a Dacre/Murdoch/Desmond lens). The fact that we get the Conservative attack lines and 'the EU is more desperate for a deal' fantasy fiction reflected back verbatim is worrying.

I don't really know how Labour (or pro-Remain supports) address that issue, but the fact outright lies get dressed up as facts and trotted out day in day out is a huge problem.
Click to expand...
He's in his 60s, just to up the tory stereotype. Mid 40s lean Labour these days.
 
Honest John said:
You truly think that Labour would have done better?? Corbyn has splinters up his arse he sits on the fence so much.
Click to expand...
I'm fairly confident an ape making the decisions by flipping a coin would be doing better than the current government.

Just today they have to explain to 30+ allies how they were sure Salisbury was a Russian attack and now have to backpedal publicly (looks very bad even if it was Russia and everyone is convinced it was). This government fecks up everything, everything, it touches. And the stuff it touches is mostly completely unnecessary too.
 
Silva said:
He's in his 60s, just to up the tory stereotype. Mid 40s lean Labour these days.
Click to expand...

Ah, I misread 'in my 43rd year of work' as '43'. My bad. Makes more sense.

Yeah, he sounds literally like my dad: 60 years old, working class background, went to free University and became a solicitor and now is pretty well off, primary source of news = The Times. Generally has pretty sensible political opinions, or at least used to, voted Remain but thinks we should 'get on with it' now and believes everything he reads about Corbyn. Told my mum off for 'wanting to ruin the country' when he found out she voted Labour last year (jokes on him caus everyone in our family did apart from him). Literally every argument Honest John's come out with today is almost word for word identical with stuff my Dad has said over the past year. If Honest John hadn't told us he had a daughter (a daughter thats probably old enough to have voted Labour ha) I'd honestly question whether they were the same person.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Ah, I misread 'in my 43rd year of work' as '43'. My bad. Makes more sense.

Yeah, he sounds literally like my dad: 60 years old, working class background, went to free University and became a solicitor and now is pretty well off, primary source of news = The Times. Generally has pretty sensible political opinions, or at least used to, voted Remain but thinks we should 'get on with it' now and believes everything he reads about Corbyn. Told my mum off for 'wanting to ruin the country' when he found out she voted Labour last year (jokes on him caus everyone in our family did apart from him). Literally every argument Honest John's come out with today is almost word for word identical with stuff my Dad has said over the past year. If Honest John hadn't told us he had a daughter (a daughter thats probably old enough to have voted Labour ha) I'd honestly question whether they were the same person.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Abizzz said:
I'm fairly confident an ape making the decisions by flipping a coin would be doing better than the current government.

Just today they have to explain to 30+ allies how they were sure Salisbury was a Russian attack and now have to backpedal publicly (looks very bad even if it was Russia and everyone is convinced it was). This government fecks up everything, everything, it touches. And the stuff it touches is mostly completely unnecessary too.
Click to expand...
Military grade nerve agent used in Wilshire Town? Nothing to see here.
 
[
NinjaFletch said:
Ah, I misread 'in my 43rd year of work' as '43'. My bad. Makes more sense.

Yeah, he sounds literally like my dad: 60 years old, working class background, went to free University and became a solicitor and now is pretty well off, primary source of news = The Times. Generally has pretty sensible political opinions, or at least used to, voted Remain but thinks we should 'get on with it' now and believes everything he reads about Corbyn. Told my mum off for 'wanting to ruin the country' when he found out she voted Labour last year (jokes on him caus everyone in our family did apart from him). Literally every argument Honest John's come out with today is almost word for word identical with stuff my Dad has said over the past year. If Honest John hadn't told us he had a daughter (a daughter thats probably old enough to have voted Labour ha) I'd honestly question whether they were the same person.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you've had a lovely upbringing despite your father's gammon face.
 
Honest John said:
Military grade nerve agent used in Wilshire Town? Nothing to see here.
Click to expand...
They could have just stated things the way they are: ex-Russian spy was poisoned with nerve gas in Salisbury and it is being investigated. The entire west would have thought it was Putin without anyone ever mentioning his name... But no Johnson needs to go out and let the world know the British foreign secretary is "in the know", inevitably making things up once he opens his mouth to the press, giving the likely perpetrator a decent way back into the conversation because he can't prove it...

Another royal feck up in a long list of amazing feck ups.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Ah, I misread 'in my 43rd year of work' as '43'. My bad. Makes more sense.

Yeah, he sounds literally like my dad: 60 years old, working class background, went to free University and became a solicitor and now is pretty well off, primary source of news = The Times. Generally has pretty sensible political opinions, or at least used to, voted Remain but thinks we should 'get on with it' now and believes everything he reads about Corbyn. Told my mum off for 'wanting to ruin the country' when he found out she voted Labour last year (jokes on him caus everyone in our family did apart from him). Literally every argument Honest John's come out with today is almost word for word identical with stuff my Dad has said over the past year. If Honest John hadn't told us he had a daughter (a daughter thats probably old enough to have voted Labour ha) I'd honestly question whether they were the same person.
Click to expand...
And you sound like my daughter - 18 knows everything. If your old man became a solicitor from working class roots then he has my respect and maybe you'd be better off trying to grasp why he holds the opinions he does. He's seen what happens if the Left get in power and the Unions reap havoc. The only time the Labour party had any semblance of success they had to move so far to the right that they were called Tories.
 
Abizzz said:
They could have just stated things the way they are: ex-Russian spy was poisoned with nerve gas in Salisbury and it is being investigated. The entire west would have thought it was Putin without anyone ever mentioning his name... But no Johnson needs to go out and let the world know the British foreign secretary is "in the know", inevitably making things up once he opens his mouth to the press, giving the likely perpetrator a decent way back into the conversation because he can't prove it...

Another royal feck up in a long list of amazing feck ups.
Click to expand...

They gained support because at a certain levels in the supporting counties all the evidence was revealed. There is clearly stuff that is being withheld for security reasons.
 
Honest John said:
And you sound like my daughter - 18 knows everything. If your old man became a solicitor from working class roots then he has my respect and maybe you'd be better off trying to grasp why he holds the opinions he does. He's seen what happens if the Left get in power and the Unions reap havoc. The only time the Labour party had any semblance of success they had to move so far to the right that they were called Tories.
Click to expand...

You're out by nearly a decade, but nice try.

Ironic, though, that you began by talking down to people about how they were bloody kids, and are continuing to talk down to everybody about how you know best and everybody else is wrong whilst simultaneously calling out others for pretending to know everything.

Do you always lack this much self awareness or are you putting on a show specially for us?
 
Honest John said:
They gained support because at a certain levels in the supporting counties all the evidence was revealed. There is clearly stuff that is being withheld for security reasons.
Click to expand...
Possible, I hope that is what happened. Doesn't change the fact that Johnson once again ran his mouth when it would have been better to just keep quite and let the facts speak for themselves.
 
Honest John said:
And you sound like my daughter - 18 knows everything. If your old man became a solicitor from working class roots then he has my respect and maybe you'd be better off trying to grasp why he holds the opinions he does. He's seen what happens if the Left get in power and the Unions reap havoc. The only time the Labour party had any semblance of success they had to move so far to the right that they were called Tories.
Click to expand...

I think the point he was making that after the war there was an attitude of 'all pulling together' so baby boomers benefited from free higher education, which made it easier to become. While you can get a law degree which you'll be indebted for, you'll struggle to get into law school more today without the right snobby connections. Social mobility, ie making something of yourself from poorer begginings, is far harder today.
 
Abizzz said:
Possible, I hope that is what happened. Doesn't change the fact that Johnson once again ran his mouth when it would have been better to just keep quite and let the facts speak for themselves.
Click to expand...
Blurting out the wrong thing is a modern-day theme and is true for a lot of people in a lot of parties - and other walks of life.
 
Honest John said:
Blurting out the wrong thing is a modern-day theme and is true for a lot of people in a lot of parties - and other walks of life.
Click to expand...

That is your defense of this government? Senior ministers can do it because a lot of people of all walks of life do it?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.