Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Dobba said:
And those Labour MPs (i.e. the people I was talking about) who all but carried Iain McNicol out on their shoulders last week? They've quite literally had a guy on in the inside with the power to do something about it for years. Heck, he even demonstrated as such to Ken Livingstone with his final act in the role.
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Is it really that hard to say “Yeah, it doesn’t look great, and whatever the context, and however small in the grand scheme, it was probably a mistake. Let’s try and be better”?

Or, you know, something a teensy bit like that? Something at least intellectually superior to the blind scattergun whattaboutism of the Brexiters, Trumpists and @Fearless?

I doubt Corbyn himself would much like the idea of his followers putting their new found Corbynism ahead of the long standing, objectively tolerant, liberal values he (and we) supposedly stand for... Would he?
Especially in defence of such a ridiculously blatant, almost comically racist Mural.

One that even the most prominent leftist figures (see above: beat me to it!) have managed to unequivocally denounce, without abandoning their party loyalty. Almost as if those aren’t mutually exclusive things for a normal, left leaning person to do.
 
Mockney said:
Is it really that hard to say “Yeah, it doesn’t look great, and whatever the context, and however small in the grand scheme, it was probably a mistake. Let’s try and be better”?

Or, you know, something a teensy bit like that? Something at least intellectually superior to the blind scattergun whattaboutism of the Brexiters, Trumpists and @Fearless?

I doubt Corbyn himself would much like the idea of his followers putting their new found Corbynism ahead of the long standing, objectively tolerant, liberal values he (and we) supposedly stand for... Would he?
Especially in defence of such a ridiculously blatant, almost comically racist Mural.

One that even the most prominent leftist figures (see above: beat me to it!) have managed to unequivocally denounce, without abandoning their party loyalty. Almost as if those aren’t mutually exclusive things for a normal, left leaning person to do.
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This is a very important point that sometimes people ignore (not saying it's happening here), which can lead to a Left -> Antisemitism/lizard people conversion:
 
Now look at the 'definitely trues'.
 
I don't get how making him look constantly embattled and under siege helps him. If you speak with a Corbyn supporter or follow one on social media there's a 'woe is him' story never far away. Everyone from his MPs to the media to special interests and everyone else besides who are accused of conspiring against him. If I wanted someone to lead the country and make the difficult decisions and enter tough negotiations with other world leaders, I'd probably not be keen to make them look completely and utterly besieged every time someone pens a critical article or posts a damning Tweet.

One of his biggest drawbacks for him is his public image and struggling to look statesmanlike or 'prime ministerial'. That isn't helped by his most vocal supporters being so utterly and ridiculously sensitive to every minute criticism of him, wherever it comes from. To me that doesn't help portray an image of someone with the balls to lead the country, it portrays an image of someone who even his own cheerleaders feel the need to act like protective mother hens whenever anyone says anything mean to him.

You can't sell resilience and hypersensitivity to absolutely anything adverse at the same time.
 
Oscie said:
I don't get how making him look constantly embattled and under siege helps him. If you speak with a Corbyn supporter or follow one on social media there's a 'woe is him' story never far away. Everyone from his MPs to the media to special interests and everyone else besides who are accused of conspiring against him. If I wanted someone to lead the country and make the difficult decisions and enter tough negotiations with other world leaders, I'd probably not be keen to make them look completely and utterly besieged every time someone pens a critical article or posts a damning Tweet.

One of his biggest drawbacks for him is his public image and struggling to look statesmanlike or 'prime ministerial'. That isn't helped by his most vocal supporters being so utterly and ridiculously sensitive to every minute criticism of him, wherever it comes from. To me that doesn't help portray an image of someone with the balls to lead the country, it portrays an image of someone who even his own cheerleaders feel the need to act like protective mother hens whenever anyone says anything mean to him.
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This is because you're spoonfed conservative propaganda and are too busy jacking off to meaningless slogans to see that the media is at the most ineffectual it's ever been. Jezza's gonna win the next election.
 
Silva said:
This is because you're spoonfed conservative propaganda and are too busy jacking off to meaningless slogans to see that the media is at the most ineffectual it's ever been. Jezza's gonna win the next election.
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RandomYouTubeCommentSectionPoliticalPoint.com might be sending you an invoice.

Really you've just responded to what I've said in the style of someone outraged that someone else has dissed their favourite wrestler. With your substantive point being 'The media is the most influential it's ever been but no it isn't because Jezza's gonna win!!'

How can the media be at its most influential it's ever been but seemingly not influential to determine the outcome of general elections as most acknowledge it has in the past?
 
Oscie said:
RandomYouTubeCommentSectionPoliticalPoint.com might be sending you an invoice.

Really you've just responded to what I've said in the style of someone outraged that someone else has dissed their favourite wrestler.
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If I was doing that I'd make fun of your use of the phrase Prime Ministerial by pointing to a photo of the Prime Minister and how she lost almost every constituency she visited. Strong and stable!
 
Honest question as I cant say I am very politically informed but where is this anti-semitism on the left coming from. Have to admit, the cynic in me thought immediately, conservative smear campaign, but i'm open to opinions.
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
Honest question as I cant say I am very politically informed but where is this anti-semitism on the left coming from. Have to admit, the cynic in me thought immediately, conservative smear campaign, but i'm open to opinions.
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It's always been there, 2000 years of antisemitism isn't going to disappear overnight. The British left brand of antisemitism comes from a mixture of things, but it's mostly from people being pissed off about the subjugation of Palestine being introduced to untrue stereotypes. But the suggestion that British antisemitism is concentrated in the Labour party is a massive exaggeration.
 
Mockney said:
Is it really that hard to say “Yeah, it doesn’t look great, and whatever the context, and however small in the grand scheme, it was probably a mistake. Let’s try and be better”?

Or, you know, something a teensy bit like that? Something at least intellectually superior to the blind scattergun whattaboutism of the Brexiters, Trumpists and @Fearless?

I doubt Corbyn himself would much like the idea of his followers putting their new found Corbynism ahead of the long standing, objectively tolerant, liberal values he (and we) supposedly stand for... Would he?
Especially in defence of such a ridiculously blatant, almost comically racist Mural.

One that even the most prominent leftist figures (see above: beat me to it!) have managed to unequivocally denounce, without abandoning their party loyalty. Almost as if those aren’t mutually exclusive things for a normal, left leaning person to do.
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There is a certain type of person on the left, in my experience, who often trades on a certain kind of moral self righteousness. They literally cannot conceive of how they could be on the wrong side of this argument.

Watching the sort of denial, wriggling and semantic hair splitting you’d get from a third rate lawyer defending a bank robber, has been pretty entertaining.
 
Silva said:
It's always been there, 2000 years of antisemitism isn't going to disappear overnight. The British left brand of antisemitism comes from a mixture of things, but it's mostly from people being pissed off about the subjugation of Palestine being introduced to untrue stereotypes. But the suggestion that British antisemitism is concentrated in the Labour party is a massive exaggeration.
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It seems like there is a large conflation between antisemitism and dislike of the Israeli state. Whilst antisemites are inevitably going to be anti-Israel, I'd wager there's a far higher number of progressives who consider themselves anti-Israel but are not at all antisemitic.

This feels very much like another silly smear against Corbyn. Does anyone really think that Corbyn of all people would downplay antisemitism?

Happy to be corrected, of course. I've stopped paying attention to these attacks against Corbyn given how utterly stupid and baseless the last few were.
 
Why 'Corbyn of all people'?

He downplayed the genocide in Kosovo outright backing an early day motion praising an article that said it didn't exist. I don't get this belief that somehow Corbyn has been campaigning for human rights and against racism all his life. Was he a prolific speaker and contributor to the antisemitism issue prior to becoming leader? I really don't think he was. Not that this means he's every tolerated antisemitism but this whole 'Corbyn of all people...' thing on the basis that before becoming leader he was the poster boy for fighting discrimination is a history that didn't exist.

Apart from that photo of him being arrested at an anti apartheid march 30-odd years ago that everyone posts. If someone has spent his entire political life fighting racism to the point where people think it's a defining feature of his career then you'd maybe expect a more recent example.

But ultimately my frustration is that we have the Tories in power, fecking over our public services, Brexit is a fecking mess and the leader of the Labour party is having to say things like 'I'm not antisemitic'. I mean fecking hell. This is what you get when someone who had no real interest in ever being leader but did so after being encouraged by people determined not to let the other side (moderates) win. McDonnell would be an infinitely better leader. Not a fan but at least he's a conviction politician that I think could galvanised beyond his own fan base and actually put the willies up a government that by rights should be 10-20 points behind in the polls at least, not leading in many of them.

McDonnell is a firebrand. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't vote to elect him leader in a month of Sundays but he's not Corbyn e.g a bit wet and I'm bored of the whole conversation surrounding Labour not being about policy or prospect of power but 'Stop being mean to him'. All the while the Tory cnuts just do literally whatever the feck they want.
 
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Oscie said:
Why 'Corbyn of all people'?

He downplayed the genocide in Kosovo outright backing an early day motion praising an article that said it didn't exist. I don't get this belief that somehow Corbyn has been campaigning for human rights and against racism all his life. Was he a prolific speaker and contributor to the antisemitism issue prior to becoming leader? I really don't think he was. Not that this means he's every tolerated antisemitism but this whole 'Corbyn of all people...' thing on the basis that before becoming leader he was the poster boy for fighting discrimination is a history that didn't exist.

Apart from that photo of him being arrested at an anti apartheid march 30-odd years ago that everyone posts. If someone has spent his entire political life fighting racism to the point where people think it's a defining feature of his career then you'd maybe expect a more recent example.

But ultimately my frustration is that we have the Tories in power, fecking over our public services, Brexit is a fecking mess and the leader of the Labour party is having to say things like 'I'm not antisemitic'. I mean fecking hell. This is what you get when someone who had no real interest in ever being leader but did so after being encouraged by people determined not to let the other side (moderates) win. McDonnell would be an infinitely better leader. Not a fan but at least he's a conviction politician that I think could galvanised beyond his own fan base and actually put the willies up a government that by rights should be 10-20 points behind in the polls at least, not leading in many of them.

McDonnell is a firebrand. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't vote to elect him leader in a month of Sundays but he's not Corbyn e.g a bit wet and I'm bored of the whole conversation surrounding Labour not being about policy or prospect of power but 'Stop being mean to him'. All the while the Tory cnuts just do literally whatever the feck they want.
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McDonnell's got more conviction and is more of a firebrand but he'd be far too alienating when it comes to his past IRA comments. If anything he'd probably drive more people away. People who like him like him...but people who don't would probably detest him. While there are people who can't stand Corbyn his general normal-ness has probably helped him in this regard, his improvement in 2017 was largely fueled by his ability to come across as somewhat reasonable and likable during the last campaign while May was going all robotic.

The Tories are in power fecking over public services but I'm not sure what that has to do with Corbyn or the Labour left - there's very little to suggest a centrist would get them back into power (Corbyn performed better electorally than Brown and Miliband) and any Labour leader who adopts your stance of going full soft Brexit will alienate swathes of voters who don't feel like they're being listened to on immigration. Granted, this does mean Corbyn's stance/s on Brexit are somewhere between absolute bollocks and non-existent, but hard to see a viable alternative for Labour in that regard right now.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
That's Owen Jones.
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I don't actually mind Owen. He's sometimes showed introspection (been critical of Corbyn at times) and has been quite strong in his condemnation of anti-semitism. He's very left-wing, yes, and can be quite blinkered sometimes but will also occasionally demonstrate a certain level-headedness too. Much worse out there.
 
Cheesy said:
I don't actually mind Owen. He's sometimes showed introspection (been critical of Corbyn at times) and has been quite strong in his condemnation of anti-semitism. He's very left-wing, yes, and can be quite blinkered sometimes but will also occasionally demonstrate a certain level-headedness too. Much worse out there.
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The moral self-righteousness is a bit too heavy at times. Although he's much better than someone like Greenwald who I find has a messianic complex ever since his NSA expose.
 
ClutchHunter said:
It seems like there is a large conflation between antisemitism and dislike of the Israeli state. Whilst antisemites are inevitably going to be anti-Israel, I'd wager there's a far higher number of progressives who consider themselves anti-Israel but are not at all antisemitic.

This feels very much like another silly smear against Corbyn. Does anyone really think that Corbyn of all people would downplay antisemitism?

Happy to be corrected, of course. I've stopped paying attention to these attacks against Corbyn given how utterly stupid and baseless the last few were.
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The evidence suggests it’s is not something he cares much about.
 
ClutchHunter said:
It seems like there is a large conflation between antisemitism and dislike of the Israeli state. Whilst antisemites are inevitably going to be anti-Israel, I'd wager there's a far higher number of progressives who consider themselves anti-Israel but are not at all antisemitic.

This feels very much like another silly smear against Corbyn. Does anyone really think that Corbyn of all people would downplay antisemitism?

Happy to be corrected, of course. I've stopped paying attention to these attacks against Corbyn given how utterly stupid and baseless the last few were.
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It depends on whether you think this

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is antisemitic, and if you do, whether you think it's likely that Corbyn wouldn't have noticed it being so whilst commenting on it on facebook.

Meanwhile, Christine Shawcroft still seems to be seated on the NEC.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
The moral self-righteousness is a bit too heavy at times. Although he's much better than someone like Greenwald who I find has a messianic complex ever since his NSA expose.
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I wanted to ask about that from the other thread - do you disagree with him or his writing style or his demanour? I know someone who agrees with his views in general but thinks he writes like a "protest pamphleteer" not a journalist and refuses to read his stuff.
 
Ubik said:
It depends on whether you think this

800x-1.jpg

is antisemitic, and if you do, whether you think it's likely that Corbyn wouldn't have noticed it being so whilst commenting on it on facebook.

Meanwhile, Christine Shawcroft still seems to be seated on the NEC.
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If anything he’s getting a free pass on this from a lot of people that won’t consider for a minute that he’s actually anti-Semitic. He was expressing support to the artist after the mural had been deemed anti-semtic and was to be taken down! Add that to the rest of his sketchy history around the subject and it is a bit surprising how he is getting away with this being seen as an innocent error in judgement by many.
 


So Alan Sugar has stirred up some controversy with this. Bit stupid and petty...but calls to sue strike me as silly.
 
berbatrick said:
I wanted to ask about that from the other thread - do you disagree with him or his writing style or his demanour? I know someone who agrees with his views in general but thinks he writes like a "protest pamphleteer" not a journalist and refuses to read his stuff.
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His style. No shred of impartiality. Like a man on a crusade, protest pamphleteer is accurate I think. I can't stand him even though the NSA report was one of the better pieces of journalism I've seen this century.
 
Sweet Square said:
Intersting polling of Labour members


















:devil:



https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/979833764594450433
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Not really surprised by any of it, particularly the figure that only 8% of Corbyn supporters are bothered by antisemitism. When the reaction was to organise to go shout down Jews who were protesting antisemitism, it does kind of reflect a group that's either in denial of the problem, or is genuinely ignorant of the problem, or doesn't care about the problem.

Of course the other conclusion is that it's one big conspiracy deemed to control the Labour party and undermine Jeremy Corbyn. Not that there's anything wrong or even slightly antisemitic about a theory that accuses the Jews of conspiring to control for their own gain. No Sir.
 
Oscie said:
Not really surprised by any of it, particularly the figure that only 8% of Corbyn supporters are bothered by antisemitism. When the reaction was to organise to go shout down Jews who were protesting antisemitism, it does kind of reflect a group that's either in denial of the problem, or is genuinely ignorant of the problem, or doesn't care about the problem.

Of course the other conclusion is that it's one big conspiracy deemed to control the Labour party and undermine Jeremy Corbyn. Not that there's anything wrong or even slightly antisemitic about a theory that accuses the Jews of conspiring to control for their own gain. No Sir.
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So 44% of Labour party members either don't think antisemitism is a problem or they don't know if it is?

That's quite fecking horrendous in itself, isn't it?
 
Oscie said:
So 44% of Labour party members either don't think antisemitism is a problem or they don't know if it is?

That's quite fecking horrendous in itself, isn't it?
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Would help if you could add to 100... It's 34, not 44%.
 
rotherham_red said:
Would help if you could add to 100... It's 34, not 44%.
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To be honest - I think we're all capable of these mistakes.

I disagree with a lot of what Oscie's saying in this thread but I'm not sure his momentary mathematical slip is our best potential criticism of him.
 
Britain is crying out for our version of Bernie Sanders right now. A fairly moderate economic populist who has strong socially liberal views, but doesn’t want to do much beyond make the world a fairer place to live in, and is willing to compromise to find solutions.

Instead we get Corbyn who is the guy that Bernie’s enemies tried to pretend he was. He seems to have the right kind of views on the economy, but also brings lots of crazy shit about nukes and NATO, is carrying tons of baggage regarding his views and prior statements on all sorts of highly controversial shit, and who I have little or no faith wouldn’t try and do something wildly impractical and stupid purely on ideological grounds.

How the actual feck did our politics fall so far? There isn’t a single person left in Labour who feels right to lead the country. On the right the only giant left is Ken Clarke and he’s not only too old but also not even taken seriously by his party anymore.
 
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