Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Every family has a £45k stake every year in th etreasury due to the government forcibly taking a good portion off people. Every litre of fuel is 4x the market price due to tax. Every pint of beer not far short. Everything we buy has a 20% VAT. It's how we use people's money thats the quesion, not the amount.

If instead of forcing parents into sending their children to the schools in their catchment area the Government for example contributed the c. £6k pppa cost and allowed the parents to choose whichever School they preferred the system would be much better.

Poor schools would soon improve or close down due to parents voting with their feet and moving school. Poor teachers would soon be unemployed for the same reason. Great schools would expand and become larger great schools.

The same with healthcare. If the Government merely contributed the c. £17,500 cost of heart bypass surgery and gave the person the freedom and choice to have the surgery wherever they wanted you'd see the same affect.

Instead of public services being inefficient due to no competition, they'd have to compete amongst themselves and the most efficient teachers, surgeons, schools and hospitals would be paid and expand accordingly.

What if the parents don't have the money to deliver their kids to a school outside their catchment area? What if the catchment area has so few kids it's not financially viable to set up a school for the few kids in the area?

What if you suffer a disease so expensive and so complex that theres little prospect of a profit. Who's going to offer to treat you in that case?

When I'm suffering a heart attack the first thing I want to know is what choice I have in treatment
 
What if the parents don't have the money to deliver their kids to a school outside their catchment area? What if the catchment area has so few kids it's not financially viable to set up a school for the few kids in the area?

What if you suffer a disease so expensive and so complex that theres little prospect of a profit. Who's going to offer to treat you in that case?

When I'm suffering a heart attack the first thing I want to know is what choice I have in treatment

If you don't have the money to deliver your kids to a School outside of your catchment area, you choose a School within your catchment area, which is the choice that's currently forced upon you regardless; so you're no worse off. However some people might decide to give up on some of life's luxuries to allow them to send their kids to a better local School. The only option for this at the moment is paying several thousand pounds per year for private school, which is unaffordable to almost everyone. If people could choose to spend a few hundred pounds of transportation for a top class education I'm sure a lot of people would cut their spending in favour of their children's education. I certainly would cut my £30 bar bill and £15 phone bill every week for example to send my child to a better School. Again though choice is King.

Naturally the system would be regulated so that everyone has access to an education, so of course Schools would be required in every area. However I imagine this is currently a problem in some remote areas regardless?

The Government is already spending the money on expensive/complex diseases so it is already coming out of the treasury. For example if someone was born with a disease that cost the treasury £1m per annum throughout their life, this money would be allocated for that person to choose whatever hospital they wanted to have ongoing care. If the service of their hospital was poor, they could choose for that £1m to be allocated to another hospital for their care.

We're spending the money regardless of the complexity or cost of the disease or illness, so giving the patient freedom to choose where they have their care only has a benefit. The added benefit is hospitals would have to become far more service orientated. If my local A & E waiting time is always 4 hours and the cost of seeing me is £250; you can bet that very quickly A&E departments would increase efficiency as they won't want to lose "business" to another local A&E (if they lost all their business management would become unemployed so the incentive is clear)
 
If you don't have the money to deliver your kids to a School outside of your catchment area, you choose a School within your catchment area, which is the choice that's currently forced upon you regardless; so you're no worse off. However some people might decide to give up on some of life's luxuries to allow them to send their kids to a better local School. The only option for this at the moment is paying several thousand pounds per year for private school, which is unaffordable to almost everyone. If people could choose to spend a few hundred pounds of transportation for a top class education I'm sure a lot of people would cut their spending in favour of their children's education. I certainly would cut my £30 bar bill and £15 phone bill every week for example to send my child to a better School. Again though choice is King.

Naturally the system would be regulated so that everyone has access to an education, so of course Schools would be required in every area. However I imagine this is currently a problem in some remote areas regardless?

What if your catchment area only has one school?

You spend 1500 a year on booze and 750 on your phone, that's not a little luxury

The Government is already spending the money on expensive/complex diseases so it is already coming out of the treasury. For example if someone was born with a disease that cost the treasury £1m per annum throughout their life, this money would be allocated for that person to choose whatever hospital they wanted to have ongoing care. If the service of their hospital was poor, they could choose for that £1m to be allocated to another hospital for their care.

We're spending the money regardless of the complexity or cost of the disease or illness, so giving the patient freedom to choose where they have their care only has a benefit. The added benefit is hospitals would have to become far more service orientated. If my local A & E waiting time is always 4 hours and the cost of seeing me is £250; you can bet that very quickly A&E departments would increase efficiency as they won't want to lose "business" to another local A&E (if they lost all their business management would become unemployed so the incentive is clear)

So more than one local A&E department, with all the duplication of management and overheads along with a slice of money for the shareholders. I don't think it's going to work, and I don't think it will be efficient.

If the Government is allocating money for research isn't that inefficient? Surely the private sector should be allowed to choose what it researches?
 
What if your catchment area only has one school?

There wouldn't be a catchment area. You could choose to send your child to whatever School you wanted. Whether that was based on reputation, location or whatever other criteria any parent would deem important to them.
You spend 1500 a year on booze and 750 on your phone, that's not a little luxury

Between me and my partner we spend £1,500 a year on alcohol and £750 on mobile phones. That's just over £30 each per month on our phones and £15 each per week on alcohol. I'd hardly call that the height of frivolity.
So more than one local A&E department, with all the duplication of management and overheads along with a slice of money for the shareholders. I don't think it's going to work, and I don't think it will be efficient.

I didn't mean open more A&E Departments for the sake of it. I mean if one department is running very poorly, then people could use another one. If one GP surgery was "quoting" 4 weeks on appointments, patients would have the option of going to see another GP. They wouldn't have to re-register and go through the bureaucratic process... They'd merely visit another GP and the Government would pay the GP cost to the other surgery instead.
If the Government is allocating money for research isn't that inefficient? Surely the private sector should be allowed to choose what it researches?

Not at all - the goal of R&D is to increase efficiency in the long term. This is part of the problem with a non-competitive, incentive-less system. Why would any Government department manager allocate a portion of their budget to look at researching and implementing technology that makes them more efficient in the future? Again there is no incentive for the management to set aside current resources to improve things in the future. They won't be rewarded for this foresight and they'll probably even be punished as this R&D "fund" would look to central Government like excess funds that can be cut from the department.

I recall a hospital ordering product from us for a cost of £20k (a similar albeit less frivolous product would cost a private company around £5k) and their only instruction was that it had to be delivered by 30th March; the reason was simply because the Trust either spent the money by that date, or they lost it as a view would be taken that their budget was too high.
 
There wouldn't be a catchment area. You could choose to send your child to whatever School you wanted. Whether that was based on reputation, location or whatever other criteria any parent would deem important to them.

Which again leaves the question of what you do if you haven't got money to send your kids away from the local school?


Between me and my partner we spend £1,500 a year on alcohol and £750 on mobile phones. That's just over £30 each per month on our phones and £15 each per week on alcohol. I'd hardly call that the height of frivolity.

Thats an enormous sum of money for someone on the minimum wage


I didn't mean open more A&E Departments for the sake of it. I mean if one department is running very poorly, then people could use another one. If one GP surgery was "quoting" 4 weeks on appointments, patients would have the option of going to see another GP. They wouldn't have to re-register and go through the bureaucratic process... They'd merely visit another GP and the Government would pay the GP cost to the other surgery instead.

For their to be competition it would require more than one a&e department. Otherwise it's inefficient.

Most people want to see their GP, not a GP


Not at all - the goal of R&D is to increase efficiency in the long term. This is part of the problem with a non-competitive, incentive-less system. Why would any Government department manager allocate a portion of their budget to look at researching and implementing technology that makes them more efficient in the future? Again there is no incentive for the management to set aside current resources to improve things in the future. They won't be rewarded for this foresight and they'll probably even be punished as this R&D "fund" would look to central Government like excess funds that can be cut from the department.

I recall a hospital ordering product from us for a cost of £20k (a similar albeit less frivolous product would cost a private company around £5k) and their only instruction was that it had to be delivered by 30th March; the reason was simply because the Trust either spent the money by that date, or they lost it as a view would be taken that their budget was too high.

I get it. You've done a bit of economic theory and think it has the answer to everything. It's not even a science
 
Which again leaves the question of what you do if you haven't got money to send your kids away from the local school?

As I said you're either in the exact position you are now (ie you're School is chosen for you by location), or you make lifestyle changes in order to send your child further afield. The key point is you have a choice.
Thats an enormous sum of money for someone on the minimum wage

My company doesn't pay minimum wage but even the lowest earning staff on £8 per hour have iPhones and go to the pub on a weekly basis.
For their to be competition it would require more than one a&e department. Otherwise it's inefficient.

There would be competition - but that doesn't mean arbitrarily opening new departments. There are currently 12 A&E centers within 30 minutes of my current location. If funding were allocated according to how many people visited each department you'd soon see some of those departments becoming much more efficient, getting more funding, growing, becoming more efficient still (economies of scale) and instead of 12 mediocre centers you'd probably end up with half the amount who're all much more efficient. If one of the remaining centers became inefficient, patients would vote with their feet and go to one of the other centers.

If a GP felt that there was a shortage of efficient centers in an area and they had the expertise to compete; they could open up a center and the same rules would apply. If they were good they'd grow, if they were poor they wouldn't.
Most people want to see their GP, not a GP

If their GP (as is often the case) could rarely fit them in and provided them poor service, they could find a new GP that provided better service. Obviously if they only wanted to see one GP and were happy to have the terrible service he provided, then they would be in the same position they are now.

However for the majority of people "their GP", will be the GP who provides great service and can fit them in within 24 hours notice. If "their GP" suddenly became very poor in terms of service levels they could either put up with the poor service or move to another provider. The key would be that there would be no bureaucracy in visiting another GP. You would merely book an appointment and the Government would pay the cost they are currently incurring to the other practice.
I get it. You've done a bit of economic theory and think it has the answer to everything. It's not even a science

It's not a silver bullet, but it would be a great start. The fact that we're in a society whereby the Government forcibly extracts huge amounts of our income from us (more than tripling as a % of GDP over the past century) and in return gives us very little freedom in terms of where we send our kids to school, which hospitals we visit, how we spend our welfare, how we save for our pension, who we give our charity too.

I find it quite dreadful how as a society we've allowed the Government to impinge on our freedoms to such an extent.
 
As I said you're either in the exact position you are now (ie you're School is chosen for you by location), or you make lifestyle changes in order to send your child further afield. The key point is you have a choice.


My company doesn't pay minimum wage but even the lowest earning staff on £8 per hour have iPhones and go to the pub on a weekly basis.

You don't live in the real world. Poverty exists, even for those in work

https://www.theguardian.com/society...poverty-families-study-private-rented-housing




There would be competition - but that doesn't mean arbitrarily opening new departments. There are currently 12 A&E centers within 30 minutes of my current location. If funding were allocated according to how many people visited each department you'd soon see some of those departments becoming much more efficient, getting more funding, growing, becoming more efficient still (economies of scale) and instead of 12 mediocre centers you'd probably end up with half the amount who're all much more efficient. If one of the remaining centers became inefficient, patients would vote with their feet and go to one of the other centers.

Thats great if you are in a large urban centre, I guess you are in London. Doesn't work like that in most cities. Leicester where I'm from has one a&e serving 300000 people.

Also I'm not sure I'm going to be making choices about which a&e department to visit if I've been in an accident.

If a GP felt that there was a shortage of efficient centers in an area and they had the expertise to compete; they could open up a center and the same rules would apply. If they were good they'd grow, if they were poor they wouldn't.


If their GP (as is often the case) could rarely fit them in and provided them poor service, they could find a new GP that provided better service. Obviously if they only wanted to see one GP and were happy to have the terrible service he provided, then they would be in the same position they are now.

However for the majority of people "their GP", will be the GP who provides great service and can fit them in within 24 hours notice. If "their GP" suddenly became very poor in terms of service levels they could either put up with the poor service or move to another provider. The key would be that there would be no bureaucracy in visiting another GP. You would merely book an appointment and the Government would pay the cost they are currently incurring to the other practice.

Money already follows the patient when it comes to GP services


It's not a silver bullet, but it would be a great start. The fact that we're in a society whereby the Government forcibly extracts huge amounts of our income from us (more than tripling as a % of GDP over the past century) and in return gives us very little freedom in terms of where we send our kids to school, which hospitals we visit, how we spend our welfare, how we save for our pension, who we give our charity too.

I find it quite dreadful how as a society we've allowed the Government to impinge on our freedoms to such an extent.

What impingement?
 
If instead of forcing parents into sending their children to the schools in their catchment area the Government for example contributed the c. £6k pppa cost and allowed the parents to choose whichever School they preferred the system would be much better.

Poor schools would soon improve or close down due to parents voting with their feet and moving school. Poor teachers would soon be unemployed for the same reason. Great schools would expand and become larger great schools.

Parents already can do all these things, the issue is outstanding schools have a maximum that they can expand to. So once you hit 60 places, no one else can get in, it's called oversubscription. If they're not oversubscribed and an outstanding/good school you should get in. But guess what every aspiring parents wants to send their child to the outstanding school. So only the children who live nearest to the school can get in.

The whole shutting down poor/failing schools has already been done by The Torries. Shutting down failing schools and building very expensive new acadamies. Guess what happened? All the kids from the failing school went to the new shiny school. They had the same attitudes and the same lack of parental support, so what do you think happened? Yes they went back to failing.

You can have outstanding schools in areas of deprivation as my partner teaches in one but the discipline needs to be regimental. My partner taught in inadequate schools and she said 'I couldn't teach properly in those schools because I was constantly managing behaviour'. In the outstanding school they have a behavioural management system that allows her to get the trouble makers out of the class, bolloked/detensions etc and there's consequently better behaviour. The Asian countries you quoted I'd assume have better discipline and better parental attitudes to education.

BTW if you think you can cut school funding and get equal/better results I'll tell you now my partner already can't photocopy/print anything like as much as she'd want to for class resources because of budgetry constraints.

If you don't have the money to deliver your kids to a School outside of your catchment area, you choose a School within your catchment area, which is the choice that's currently forced upon you regardless; so you're no worse off. However some people might decide to give up on some of life's luxuries to allow them to send their kids to a better local School. The only option for this at the moment is paying several thousand pounds per year for private school, which is unaffordable to almost everyone. If people could choose to spend a few hundred pounds of transportation for a top class education I'm sure a lot of people would cut their spending in favour of their children's education. I certainly would cut my £30 bar bill and £15 phone bill every week for example to send my child to a better School. Again though choice is King.

Again you're assuming you'll get in, if they're oversubscribed you won't. If they're underscribed you can get them in.

If you want to get your kid into a good/outstanding school you can put them on the waiting list for schools that are good/outstanding in your area and when a place becomes available you can send them there. Another tip is if you can find a school that is inadequate but it has excellent results it's likely to be a good school that's either been cheating the SATs or not ticking a box. Also if your children are yet to goto school start going to a good C&E schools church, you can get in on the church places allocation. Same with Catholic Schools. You'll need to get them baptised. Usually there are a few outstanding C of E or Catholic schools, so worth looking into.

Personally I'm currently in the process of moving to an outstanding school area at much expense for the reasons I've outlined. Ideologically I'm not completely comfortable with the inequality and elitism but on the other hand I want to give my kids the best life chances.
 
You don't live in the real world. Poverty exists, even for those in work

https://www.theguardian.com/society...poverty-families-study-private-rented-housing

I have no doubt that some people are very much struggling and are in poverty, however the above link is disingenuous as the definition for poverty in this country is completely flawed and serves only to flair up emotions. It's usually defined as if your income is below 60% of the median household income. Therefore if the median household income rose significantly (for example if we had a boom in millionaires), irrespective of actual poverty people would be dragged into the definition despite not being in actual poverty.

The definition of poverty needs to change to stop the peddling of the above misinformation. A single male living in Bradford on £284 (14/15 figures) per week would not be in poverty. However a single male with 3 children in his care living in central London on £284 per week would absolutely we in poverty.

Realistically though the vast, vast majority of the populous have £1,500 disposable income per annum after necessities, although that isn't really the point of the post(s).
Thats great if you are in a large urban centre, I guess you are in London. Doesn't work like that in most cities. Leicester where I'm from has one a&e serving 300000 people.

Also I'm not sure I'm going to be making choices about which a&e department to visit if I've been in an accident.

I work near to Birmingham so you're somewhat correct. However again the absolute worst case with this idea is you're stuck with the status quo - ie you only have one School or A&E to choose from. Therefore a significant portion of people would benefit from increased competition, but those who don't will be no worse off that they are now. A big up side with no down side.
Money already follows the patient when it comes to GP services

The difference is if you're annoyed with the service at Tesco, the chances are the next time you go shopping you'll go to Asda or Lidl or Aldi or Sainsbury's. If you're annoyed with the service of your GP there is a massively bureaucratic process involved with changing supplier. So much so that the vast majority of people put up with the poor service because of the grief involved with changing. Then if the new GP is no better you'd have to go through it all over again.

With technology meaning records are centralised changing GP should be like changing where you shop. Instead of driving to one supplier you should be able to drive to another.
What impingement?

Freedom is about choice. A totally free society allows you to choose how to spend the bulk of your money, where to send your children to School, which Surgeon you want to carry out your operation, which accommodation you live in, how your pension is invested, how much money to invest in your pension, how and when to extract your pension,

As I said the Government has gone from extracting 11% of GDP from the economy a century ago to extracting nearly 40% nowadays. This means they're forcibly extracting over 3 times as much from people's pockets; deciding that they know how to spend your money better than you do.

It's absolutely outrageous that someone who is earning a relatively low salary of say £20,000 is not only paying £1,700 in income tax, but is also paying around the same again in National Insurance, around the same again in VAT, is paying 70% of his fuel bill and 10% of his insurance in tax for the audacity to need to drive to work, 30% of a pint of beer and 90% for a pack of cigarettes because he has the audacity to want to relax, 10% tax on his home/contents insurance and £1,000 a year in council tax because he has the audacity to require a home.

That's what I mean by impingement of freedom. People talk about a stagnation of wages since Victorian times and look to business for not paying "a fair wage". How about we look to the real culprit - successive Governments for the past century that have hammered the entire populous with stealth taxes for the sole purpose of increasing their own turnover and telling us how we should spend our own money.
 
On the point of NHS, I think people are confusing privatising the NHS with the question of how the NHS should be funded. I'm against privatisation of the NHS, but I think an NHS free at the point of delivery is not sustainable.
 
I have no doubt that some people are very much struggling and are in poverty, however the above link is disingenuous as the definition for poverty in this country is completely flawed and serves only to flair up emotions. It's usually defined as if your income is below 60% of the median household income. Therefore if the median household income rose significantly (for example if we had a boom in millionaires), irrespective of actual poverty people would be dragged into the definition despite not being in actual poverty.

The definition of poverty needs to change to stop the peddling of the above misinformation. A single male living in Bradford on £284 (14/15 figures) per week would not be in poverty. However a single male with 3 children in his care living in central London on £284 per week would absolutely we in poverty.

Realistically though the vast, vast majority of the populous have £1,500 disposable income per annum after necessities, although that isn't really the point of the post(s).


I work near to Birmingham so you're somewhat correct. However again the absolute worst case with this idea is you're stuck with the status quo - ie you only have one School or A&E to choose from. Therefore a significant portion of people would benefit from increased competition, but those who don't will be no worse off that they are now. A big up side with no down side.


The difference is if you're annoyed with the service at Tesco, the chances are the next time you go shopping you'll go to Asda or Lidl or Aldi or Sainsbury's. If you're annoyed with the service of your GP there is a massively bureaucratic process involved with changing supplier. So much so that the vast majority of people put up with the poor service because of the grief involved with changing. Then if the new GP is no better you'd have to go through it all over again.

With technology meaning records are centralised changing GP should be like changing where you shop. Instead of driving to one supplier you should be able to drive to another.


Freedom is about choice. A totally free society allows you to choose how to spend the bulk of your money, where to send your children to School, which Surgeon you want to carry out your operation, which accommodation you live in, how your pension is invested, how much money to invest in your pension, how and when to extract your pension,

As I said the Government has gone from extracting 11% of GDP from the economy a century ago to extracting nearly 40% nowadays. This means they're forcibly extracting over 3 times as much from people's pockets; deciding that they know how to spend your money better than you do.

It's absolutely outrageous that someone who is earning a relatively low salary of say £20,000 is not only paying £1,700 in income tax, but is also paying around the same again in National Insurance, around the same again in VAT, is paying 70% of his fuel bill and 10% of his insurance in tax for the audacity to need to drive to work, 30% of a pint of beer and 90% for a pack of cigarettes because he has the audacity to want to relax, 10% tax on his home/contents insurance and £1,000 a year in council tax because he has the audacity to require a home.

That's what I mean by impingement of freedom. People talk about a stagnation of wages since Victorian times and look to business for not paying "a fair wage". How about we look to the real culprit - successive Governments for the past century that have hammered the entire populous with stealth taxes for the sole purpose of increasing their own turnover and telling us how we should spend our own money.
I wonder how outraged this £20,000 earner would be when the government stopped taking their taxes, but then closed down all the public schools, stopped building and maintaining roads, made them pay for whatever surgery they need. Stopped collecting the bins from their home. This "taxes were 3 times lower a century ago" shit is completely farcical when you consider no sane person wants things to be the way they were a century ago. The problem with cutting taxes and government services is that you quickly find out just what your taxes did and that your life won't function without them.
 
I wonder how outraged this £20,000 earner would be when the government stopped taking their taxes, but then closed down all the public schools, stopped building and maintaining roads, made them pay for whatever surgery they need. Stopped collecting the bins from their home. This "taxes were 3 times lower a century ago" shit is completely farcical when you consider no sane person wants things to be the way they were a century ago. The problem with cutting taxes and government services is that you quickly find out just what your taxes did and that your life won't function without them.
What about keeping taxes the same but cutting services? General waste collections once a month, all the local libraries are shut, no childcare, more potholes, lack of policing in the local area, streetlights being left broken. Because that's what is going on.
 
What about keeping taxes the same but cutting services? General waste collections once a month, all the local libraries are shut, no childcare, more potholes, lack of policing in the local area, streetlights being left broken. Because that's what is going on.
All of those things are pennies of the budget and politically motivates cuts. More affluent areas are still having their potholes filled and their schools are still getting more resources than the rest.

Taxes are lower for the wealthy though, they were meant to be lower for the rest too but VAT was raised to deal with us. It's the labour/tory thing, every time the Tories come in the majority gets screwed.

But it's nothing compared to if taxes were slashed by 2/3rds, pensions would collapse the NHS would be unable to pay it's debts and go bankrupt and public infrastructure would quickly become a hazard.
 
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All of those things are pennies of the budget and politically motivates cuts. More affluent areas are still having their potholes filled and their schools are still getting more resources than the rest.

Taxes are lower for the wealthy though, they were meant to be lower for the rest too but VAT was raised to deal with us. It's the labour/tory thing, every time the Tories come in the majority gets screwed.

But it's nothing compared to if taxes were slashed by 2/3rds, pensions would collapse the NHS would be unable to pay it's debts and go bankrupt and public infrastructure would quickly become a hazard.
True enough. For me the big issue surrounds wage stagnation. There’s so many positions where the wage you get now is the same as it was before the crash, and yet look at the increase in food and rent costs. The question is though, who is responsible for increasing them? Public sector budgets are slashed so there’s no chance of them being the first to do it, and the private sector needs to keep an eye on their bottom line.

I suppose the “there’s no money left” argument gets a bit annoying when the odd billion here and there can be found for vanity projects. People aren’t thinking clearly when they demand massive tax cuts, but it seems like a reaction to being sick and tired of having to get by when they see their money being wasted.
 
True enough. For me the big issue surrounds wage stagnation. There’s so many positions where the wage you get now is the same as it was before the crash, and yet look at the increase in food and rent costs. The question is though, who is responsible for increasing them? Public sector budgets are slashed so there’s no chance of them being the first to do it, and the private sector needs to keep an eye on their bottom line.

I suppose the “there’s no money left” argument gets a bit annoying when the odd billion here and there can be found for vanity projects. People aren’t thinking clearly when they demand massive tax cuts, but it seems like a reaction to being sick and tired of having to get by when they see their money being wasted.

It has to be the public sector, public sector wage increases are basically pumping money into the economy but they'd rather spend the money on more indirect methods such as asset inflation.

The current trend of flat wage growth can't continue through Brexit but it will
 
The lack of reaction to May's price cap again is amusing, half the current cabinet called this policy dangerous marxist policy or accused Labour of economic illiteracy when Ed proposed it.

Thats the thing with economic theory, half of the time its used to try and validate an ideological stance. One can easily pick and choose where it suits.
 
I wonder how outraged this £20,000 earner would be when the government stopped taking their taxes, but then closed down all the public schools, stopped building and maintaining roads, made them pay for whatever surgery they need. Stopped collecting the bins from their home. This "taxes were 3 times lower a century ago" shit is completely farcical when you consider no sane person wants things to be the way they were a century ago. The problem with cutting taxes and government services is that you quickly find out just what your taxes did and that your life won't function without them.

The post was in relation to the inefficiency of monopolies, of which Governmental departments are top of that list. They have absolutely no competition and when the going gets tough, they merely allow service levels to drop and complain about a lack of funding, rather than become more efficient and innovate. My example about every single Government department saying they are under-funded, despite total spend being 105% of revenue is pertinent. How can we be spending more than we earn, but also under-funding every single department? The answer is we can't and it's the inefficiencies of departments and the lack of incentives to improve that causes the funding gaps, not a lack of money.

The solution to this is to create competition within the public sector to drive efficiency and to root out the inefficiencies that cost tax payers tens of billions. This would not only drive down costs, but would drive long term innovation and planning, rather than putting a short term plaster onto every problem as there is no incentive for management to think long term. Why as a public sector manager would I work tirelessly to reduce costs and increase efficiency when there is no personal benefit to doing so? I wouldn't - I'd merely be striving for the easiest life possible. I've experienced this attitude numerous times when dealing with the public sector and have taken full advantage of their apathy.

The overriding point is if increased competition improved efficiencies by 5% across the board, that would be an £42 billion saving to the exchequer, which could be passed on to the lowest earners in society.
Parents already can do all these things, the issue is outstanding schools have a maximum that they can expand to. So once you hit 60 places, no one else can get in, it's called oversubscription. If they're not oversubscribed and an outstanding/good school you should get in. But guess what every aspiring parents wants to send their child to the outstanding school. So only the children who live nearest to the school can get in.

Can you imagine a private sector business saying "unfortunately we have too many customers", it's complete nonsense. This is exactly my point about trying to increase competition in the public sector. If the Government paid Schools per pupil, gave people ultimate freedom (abolishing catchment areas) and allowed anyone to open a School, whilst also allowing incentives to management... You'd soon see the best Schools expanding and the worst Schools retracting, as people would vote with their feet.

Schools who're oversubscribed would quickly invest in expansion in order to meet demand. There would be no maximum as to how much they could expand and Government would not interfere.
The whole shutting down poor/failing schools has already been done by The Torries. Shutting down failing schools and building very expensive new acadamies. Guess what happened? All the kids from the failing school went to the new shiny school. They had the same attitudes and the same lack of parental support, so what do you think happened? Yes they went back to failing.

It's not about "shutting them down", this is completely arbitrary and naturally results in failure as you mention. It's about organically allowing great schools to expand and poor schools to organically close. The great schools will continue to be good, otherwise the freedom of parents to choose will result in the School losing customers and retracting in size and the incentives to headteachers would similarly retract.

The result over an albeit lengthy period would be that because Headteachers are financially incentivised to increase the size of their Schools; the only way to increase the size of your School is to attract more customers (children); the only way to attract more customers is to improve educational standards; and the only way to improve educational standards is to work harder and become more involved. This might involve sacking poor staff and head-hunting better staff who will demand a higher salary and becoming more efficient by drilling down the prices of consumables in order to pay the higher salaries that better staff will demand.

None of this can be achieved with arbitrary pay bands for teachers and heads.
You can have outstanding schools in areas of deprivation as my partner teaches in one but the discipline needs to be regimental. My partner taught in inadequate schools and she said 'I couldn't teach properly in those schools because I was constantly managing behaviour'. In the outstanding school they have a behavioural management system that allows her to get the trouble makers out of the class, bolloked/detensions etc and there's consequently better behaviour. The Asian countries you quoted I'd assume have better discipline and better parental attitudes to education.

Absolutely. If the headteachers and teachers themselves had clear financial incentives to put those structures in place you'd soon see schools with incompetent management quickly failing and schools with great management flourishing; with their salaries flourishing to match.

You're correct re: Asian schooling; they also are in school many more hours per week so will inevitably learn more. Judging by my experience instead of being in the classrooms, our schools are increasingly setting much, much more homework to compensate; but there is no substitution for class hours in my view.
BTW if you think you can cut school funding and get equal/better results I'll tell you now my partner already can't photocopy/print anything like as much as she'd want to for class resources because of budgetry constraints.

I think this is the fundamental problem with the way budgetary restraints get passed on. As there is no incentive for a headteacher to be innovative and efficient budget cuts just get passed on to ridiculous things like photocopying; as this is a simple, albeit ineffective means of "cutting costs".

I can guarantee if you drilled down into how to optimise staffing levels, procurement, cleaning contracts, maintenance contracts, capital investments; there are huge efficiencies to be made. I supplied doors to a School 4 weeks ago that cost over £1,000 per door, replacing 40 doors... That will be the same School that is telling its teachers they can't photocopy as much as they want.
Again you're assuming you'll get in, if they're oversubscribed you won't. If they're underscribed you can get them in.

If you want to get your kid into a good/outstanding school you can put them on the waiting list for schools that are good/outstanding in your area and when a place becomes available you can send them there. Another tip is if you can find a school that is inadequate but it has excellent results it's likely to be a good school that's either been cheating the SATs or not ticking a box. Also if your children are yet to goto school start going to a good C&E schools church, you can get in on the church places allocation. Same with Catholic Schools. You'll need to get them baptised. Usually there are a few outstanding C of E or Catholic schools, so worth looking into.

Personally I'm currently in the process of moving to an outstanding school area at much expense for the reasons I've outlined. Ideologically I'm not completely comfortable with the inequality and elitism but on the other hand I want to give my kids the best life chances.

Again over time the best schools will expand to suit consumer needs. No business in the long term turns away custom. If you only have one choice of school in your area and it is poorly run; a headteacher or maybe your partner would realise the area is prime for opening a new school. They'd have personal incentives to make it efficient and they'd give parents a choice. If their school was well run they'd increase in size quickly like any other business. Fundamentally though any selection process would not take into consideration location.

I'm in a similarly uncomfortable position in that I don't agree with having to pay for education via taxation and then having to pay again if I want complete choice - as previous I believe we can have a system with ultimate choice through taxation. However even though I don't plan to have children for another 5 or so years, I've bitten the bullet and am saving every month to allow me to send them to private school if I feel the school(s) that are being forced upon me aren't up to the standards I'd want.
 
The post was in relation to the inefficiency of monopolies, of which Governmental departments are top of that list. They have absolutely no competition and when the going gets tough, they merely allow service levels to drop and complain about a lack of funding, rather than become more efficient and innovate. My example about every single Government department saying they are under-funded, despite total spend being 105% of revenue is pertinent. How can we be spending more than we earn, but also under-funding every single department? The answer is we can't and it's the inefficiencies of departments and the lack of incentives to improve that causes the funding gaps, not a lack of money.

The solution to this is to create competition within the public sector to drive efficiency and to root out the inefficiencies that cost tax payers tens of billions. This would not only drive down costs, but would drive long term innovation and planning, rather than putting a short term plaster onto every problem as there is no incentive for management to think long term. Why as a public sector manager would I work tirelessly to reduce costs and increase efficiency when there is no personal benefit to doing so? I wouldn't - I'd merely be striving for the easiest life possible. I've experienced this attitude numerous times when dealing with the public sector and have taken full advantage of their apathy.

The overriding point is if increased competition improved efficiencies by 5% across the board, that would be an £42 billion saving to the exchequer, which could be passed on to the lowest earners in society.
Sounds all well and good, but every attempt to improve efficiency just leads to different problems. I mean, the really big ticket items - Pensions and Health, how exactly do you cut them by 5% without literally killing people?

I get it, you've got this scenario in your head where you waltz into one of the department offices in London, roll up your sleeves, and proudly declare in front of everyone "right, you lazy feckers, we're going to make this department 5% more efficient" and everyone rejoices that they've finally got a common sense leader ready to fix the underlying problems in government. But what you'll be met with is civil servant after civil servant telling you something along the lines of "no, we need this money to be spent in this way because every cut made here leads to more people dying from cardiac arrests."

And competition isn't always the answer. What really is the point in healthcare competition? There's 2 major hospitals in my town, and they do very different things. It works out best because they can specialise. If they both had to have a cardiac centre and both had to have a oncology ward it would just split up the cardiac team and the oncology team. It wouldn't make either hospital better and it would be worse for people with heart disease or cancer because whichever hospital they pick, they've got half the specialists at their disposal.

Governments departments shouldn't be run by single-mindedly chasing efficiency or competition because when you do that you often overlook the options that will do the most good. Schools are another good example of this. It's far more economically efficient to have one teacher for every 50 pupils. But that's clearly not the best option for society.
 
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I'm in a similarly uncomfortable position in that I don't agree with having to pay for education via taxation and then having to pay again if I want complete choice - as previous I believe we can have a system with ultimate choice through taxation. However even though I don't plan to have children for another 5 or so years, I've bitten the bullet and am saving every month to allow me to send them to private school if I feel the school(s) that are being forced upon me aren't up to the standards I'd want.
This is just out-right stupid. Even the little things we take for granted, like having a literate population make a major difference to society. Fetishising efficiency is one thing, it's a major piece of misinformation all politicians use "Our policies are far more efficient than their policies!" has echoed from every political debate ever. So it's easy to understand why everyone thinks everything is inefficient. But not wanting your taxes to pay for schools? What the feck man.
 
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I have no doubt that some people are very much struggling and are in poverty, however the above link is disingenuous as the definition for poverty in this country is completely flawed and serves only to flair up emotions. It's usually defined as if your income is below 60% of the median household income. Therefore if the median household income rose significantly (for example if we had a boom in millionaires), irrespective of actual poverty people would be dragged into the definition despite not being in actual poverty.

The definition of poverty needs to change to stop the peddling of the above misinformation. A single male living in Bradford on £284 (14/15 figures) per week would not be in poverty. However a single male with 3 children in his care living in central London on £284 per week would absolutely we in poverty.

Realistically though the vast, vast majority of the populous have £1,500 disposable income per annum after necessities, although that isn't really the point of the post(s).

I know how the definition of poverty works, well done on wasting your time. Relative poverty is a fine measure, most households don't have a lot of spare money.

I work near to Birmingham so you're somewhat correct. However again the absolute worst case with this idea is you're stuck with the status quo - ie you only have one School or A&E to choose from. Therefore a significant portion of people would benefit from increased competition, but those who don't will be no worse off that they are now. A big up side with no down side.

Your problem is the absolute belief that competition is the only route to improvement. There was no competition in the days of the last labour government, just a shit ton more money spent, the NHS was in the best state it had ever been.


The difference is if you're annoyed with the service at Tesco, the chances are the next time you go shopping you'll go to Asda or Lidl or Aldi or Sainsbury's. If you're annoyed with the service of your GP there is a massively bureaucratic process involved with changing supplier. So much so that the vast majority of people put up with the poor service because of the grief involved with changing. Then if the new GP is no better you'd have to go through it all over again.

With technology meaning records are centralised changing GP should be like changing where you shop. Instead of driving to one supplier you should be able to drive to another.

You don't visit a GP to buy things, you visit a GP because you are ill. Set a standard for quality of GP and as long wait times don't get wildly out of control no one will give a shit about moving

Freedom is about choice. A totally free society allows you to choose how to spend the bulk of your money, where to send your children to School, which Surgeon you want to carry out your operation, which accommodation you live in, how your pension is invested, how much money to invest in your pension, how and when to extract your pension,

People already have a choice with schools, money follows the pupil but realistically you want your kid to go somewhere local. You don't have money or time to skip them half way round the city.

I not an expert on medicine. I don't care who my surgeon is, just that he's competent and local, which is what the NHS produces most of the time.

If you haven't the money to save for a pension?

As I said the Government has gone from extracting 11% of GDP from the economy a century ago to extracting nearly 40% nowadays. This means they're forcibly extracting over 3 times as much from people's pockets; deciding that they know how to spend your money better than you do.

And with that 40% the Government also now provides an NHS, education and welfare system that didn't exist 100 years ago. Makes most people's lives better.

It's absolutely outrageous that someone who is earning a relatively low salary of say £20,000 is not only paying £1,700 in income tax, but is also paying around the same again in National Insurance, around the same again in VAT, is paying 70% of his fuel bill and 10% of his insurance in tax for the audacity to need to drive to work, 30% of a pint of beer and 90% for a pack of cigarettes because he has the audacity to want to relax, 10% tax on his home/contents insurance and £1,000 a year in council tax because he has the audacity to require a home.

That's what I mean by impingement of freedom. People talk about a stagnation of wages since Victorian times and look to business for not paying "a fair wage". How about we look to the real culprit - successive Governments for the past century that have hammered the entire populous with stealth taxes for the sole purpose of increasing their own turnover and telling us how we should spend our own money.

You can't pretend you are for public services and then go on a big rant about how much tax is taken and how better things were a century ago when the public services didn't exist. I guess you'd be happier if poverty was Victorian in standard as opposed to the relative poverty of today, because freedom
 
It literally took a quick search online to find this info.
What a shocker. Soubry is having a complete meltdown demanding the whip is withdrawn.

Obviously Jess Phillips is saying she's appalled, a few days after her latest media appearance with BFF Jacob Rees-Mogg, whose efforts towards true gender equality are well documented and simply unparalleled.
 
Tonight's BBC documentary on Labour's summer was so clearly first pitched as a 'Demise of Corbyn' piece. Loved almost every second of it, the post-exit poll segments (especially Kinnock Jr's face as his leadership bid ended before it started) bordered on a legal high.
 
Tonight's BBC documentary on Labour's summer was so clearly first pitched as a 'Demise of Corbyn' piece. Loved almost every second of it, the post-exit poll segments (especially Kinnock Jr's face as his leadership bid ended before it started) bordered on a legal high.
Haven't watched it but have seen the clip of Kinnock Jr and yeah it's fecking brilliant.
 
Couldn't find the 13 points but here's a link to the Momentum constituton. If they're asked to swear fealty to the "political objectives" of momentum then those would be the following:

3. The association aims:
  • To work for the election of a Labour government;
  • To revitalise the Labour Party by building on the values, energy and enthusiasm of the Jeremy for Leader campaign so that Labour will become an effective, open, inclusive, participatory, democratic and member-led party of and in Government;
  • To broaden support for a transformative, socialist programme;
  • To unite people in their communities and workplaces to win victories on the issues that matter to them;
  • To make politics more accessible to more people;
  • To ensure a wide and diverse membership of Labour who are in and heard at every level of the party;
  • To demonstrate how collective action and Labour values can transform our society for the better and improve the lives of ordinary people; and
  • To achieve a society that is more democratic, fair and equal.
I guess the commitment to a "transformative, socialist programme" is the shocker. Commitment to being member led is probably running a close second since it's plausible that the terms "member-led" and "Momentum" might end up being interchangeable.

At any rate I hardly find it surprising that a pressure group wants reciprocal support from those it chooses to back.
 
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In other words Momentum want left wing MPs in the Labour Party.

Exactly, this is pretty much the definition of how a pressure group acts. I don't get the breathless tone of the article (I say feigning ignorance, having seen the Guardian continuously punch left for 2 years)