Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Well I completely agree with your argument of needing to make a credible argument against austerity, it's almost exactly why I voted for Corbyn last year.

But I now don't agree that Jeremy is the person to do that at all - the more I see of his leadership of the party, the man himself, and his handling of the media, I find the idea that he'll be able to prepare a competent argument and opposition laughable. He's making the Labour party a joke to those outside of his bubble (the article defines them as 'those comfortable in metropolitan modernity' - I think that sums the group up pretty well), while increasing the fervour of those in it against the rest. That's only going to end in increasing disaster for the Labour party and movement.

Electability is one argument but I'd throughly dispute Labour haven't been an effective opposition under him. They've actually successfully challenged a number of key peices of Tory policy in his first year and had a commons motioned passed the other day on opposing the position on EU residents.

If Watson was the compromise I'd vote for him however i don't think he himself or the progress branch want it. They weren't even willing on Burnham.

I disagree with Corbyn on open borders and would like to see reform but the rest you've posted is just standard Labour policy. Blairs first manifesto was essentially invest invest invest but with no more taxes and all the nice wording around that of which Cameron borrowed. Do we think people will still buy into that? Especially given past and soon to be economic events
 
Really not sure what you're arguing here. I was disagreeing with the suggestion that the two manifestos were indistinguishable.

Did you think anything of the article africanspur posted on the last page? Here.
:lol: I feel like you're getting close to how exasperated I got last year.
 
I disagree that that's the main reason we lost the last two elections.

And I'm not calling any one individual anything, but I think it's fair to say that the types of people who strongly support Corbyn are quite a narrow group. The good is that it includes Green and SWP voters, but I don't see where else he's going to pick up lost votes.

Losing the argument I should say was in reference to the economic argument. When Cameron pulled out that note left in the treasury by Liam Byrne - that's the point I thought it was lost but I'm not going to put the actual election down to any one issue. But yeah that note single-handedly removed any shred of credibility that Labour had specifically in regards to the economy in my eyes.

The EU referendum was in my eyes because we have politicans previously using the EU as a scapegoat e.g. for their missed immigration targets suddenly saying it's wonderful. That's not going to convince anyone.

And no it's not fair to say that, and it doesn't help anything to say that. Especially if you can't actually back it up. For your information out of the leadership candidates, Corbyn supporters were polled as having the lowest average income and of having a lower % falling into the AB group (among other things).
 
Die hard fans of Bernie Sanders. Some use it like an offence, but I don't see it that way. What's not to like about a man sticking to his principles.

Oh right yeah I probably would be. I'd probably take him over Corbyn although it's hard to know for sure with them operating in very different political landscapess.

I'd still vote Hillary over Trump though, some of them Bernie supporters hate Hillary so much they'd rather Trump it seems, that's barmy IMO.
 
Really not sure what you're arguing here. I was disagreeing with the suggestion that the two manifestos were indistinguishable.

Did you think anything of the article africanspur posted on the last page? Here.

we will have to disagree that the two manifestos were not similar.
tbh I had not read that.

But I do believe we should vote for people who do have integrity.
 
we will have to disagree that the two manifestos were not similar.
tbh I had not read that.

But I do believe we should vote for people who do have integrity.

You should probably read the manifestos before saying they are the same.
 
Oh right yeah I probably would be. I'd probably take him over Corbyn although it's hard to know for sure with them operating in very different political landscapess.

I'd still vote Hillary over Trump though, some of them Bernie supporters hate Hillary so much they'd rather Trump it seems, that's barmy IMO.

Corbyn is much further left than Bernie. But that is to be expected.
 
I agree. We need a credible opposition not Conservative Lite. What's the point in voting if both major parties standing are pushing the same manifesto?
It's not that they are Tory lite(Although I had a cheeky dig at them earlier)it's that their ideology(A word that makes they have cold sweats)is completely at the whim of the public. It's been mentioned before on here many times but the abstaining from the welfare bill and mainly the excuses the 3 other candidates gave in the leadership race is a perfect summary of the problems of the Labour right/centre.
 
Corbyn is much further left than Bernie. But that is to be expected.

Suppose the country differences have to be taken into account in that respect. A lot of Sanders more radical ideas would probably be seen as fairly normal here.
 
It's not that they are Tory lite(Although I had a cheeky dig at them earlier)it's that their ideology(A word that makes they have cold sweats)is completely at the whim of the public. It's been mentioned before on here many times but the abstaining from the welfare bill and mainly the excuses the 3 other candidates gave in the leadership race is a perfect summary of the problems of the Labour right/centre.

tbh I have not followed all this that closely. A lot is what I have heard from friends and family.

But how can you trust people who lied to the public and took this country to war that caused the lives of so many thousands.
 
tbh I have not followed all this that closely. A lot is what I have heard from friends and family.

But how can you trust people who lied to the public and took this country to war that caused the lives of so many thousands.
I can't really sadly but there's not much choice(Although at least now with Corbyn there's something of a alternative, so I'm still backing him.)
 
I can't really sadly but there's not much choice(Although at least now with Corbyn there's something of a alternative, so I'm still backing him.)

you cant just waive your hand and say it was a mistake. A mistake is something you can use an eraser or white out to correct.

These people had all the data and reports to study and made a deliberate political decision.

To kill people.

Its evil.
 
Oh right yeah I probably would be. I'd probably take him over Corbyn although it's hard to know for sure with them operating in very different political landscapess.

I'd still vote Hillary over Trump though, some of them Bernie supporters hate Hillary so much they'd rather Trump it seems, that's barmy IMO.

It's interesting to see where Bernie would fall in the UK spectrum. His policies are pretty much centrist Labour. But his consistency sets him apart, also his focus on inequality and money.
 
It's interesting to see where Bernie would fall in the UK spectrum. His policies are pretty much centrist Labour. But his consistency sets him apart, also his focus on inequality and money.

Universal Health Care and Free College Tuition are pretty normal in Europe. Though I see that Hillary has moved very much closer to Bernie on Free college. Now if she is for a public option on health care...I see some light ahead.
 
Labour winning general elections is the exception rather than the rule. The UK is traditionally conservative in outlook, and the population has a history of being led by the privately educated elite. And generally being ok with it.

I got promoted some years ago because I had a bit of a rant about the middle class being cnuts. I also posted about how the Olympics was made up of sports that highly favoured the privately educated elite. Think about it: archery, dressage, rowing, yachting, etc. The country is run by, and for, the old school tie network. Who dominates politics? Who dominates finance? The army? The judiciary? The arts? Posh cnuts, thats who. That's the status quo of the UK. In order to change the status quo, you have to convince the power brokers that you are more electable than their usual favourites. Jeremy Corbyn, as much as I wholeheartedly agree with the majority of his views, and acknowledge him as a trustworthy, principled man, will simply not do what its takes to get elected.

I don't ever see it talked about, so maybe it's not common knowledge, but the biggest reason Tony Blair got elected in 97 was that he and Brown flew to Australia to meet with Murdoch. The Tories were happy to meet him in the UK, but New Labour went the extra mile and paid tribute, if you like. With the Sun on their side, they were able to win. Corbyn's never gonna do that in a million years, so I think he's got no chance of winning a general election.
 
Labour winning general elections is the exception rather than the rule. The UK is traditionally conservative in outlook, and the population has a history of being led by the privately educated elite. And generally being ok with it.

I got promoted some years ago because I had a bit of a rant about the middle class being cnuts. I also posted about how the Olympics was made up of sports that highly favoured the privately educated elite. Think about it: archery, dressage, rowing, yachting, etc. The country is run by, and for, the old school tie network. Who dominates politics? Who dominates finance? The army? The judiciary? The arts? Posh cnuts, thats who. That's the status quo of the UK. In order to change the status quo, you have to convince the power brokers that you are more electable than their usual favourites. Jeremy Corbyn, as much as I wholeheartedly agree with the majority of his views, and acknowledge him as a trustworthy, principled man, will simply not do what its takes to get elected.

I don't ever see it talked about, so maybe it's not common knowledge, but the biggest reason Tony Blair got elected in 97 was that he and Brown flew to Australia to meet with Murdoch. The Tories were happy to meet him in the UK, but New Labour went the extra mile and paid tribute, if you like. With the Sun on their side, they were able to win. Corbyn's never gonna do that in a million years, so I think he's got no chance of winning a general election.


Can't comment on the 2nd paragraph but the 1st and 3rd seem true to me.
 
Putting the '97 win down to Murdoch is just plain wrong.
 
Certainly the scale of it had a lot to do with it (IMO)
You could also argue that Murdoch backs winners (so that his papers capture the public mood), rather than his political agenda shaping every single leader of the country. The EU ref was clearly too close to call, and he got The Sun and The Times to back different sides.
 
Putting the '97 win down to Murdoch is just plain wrong.

Murdoch alone wasn't responsible, of course, but the general approach from Blair and Brown, with the increased use of spin doctor type figures like Campbell and Mandelson was undoubtedly crucial, and acquiring the support of the likes of Murdoch was surely a large part of that.
 
You could also argue that Murdoch backs winners (so that his papers capture the public mood), rather than his political agenda shaping every single leader of the country. The EU ref was clearly too close to call, and he got The Sun and The Times to back different sides.
Exactly, he likes to be seen to back the winner, and Blair was a young charismatic leader running an extremely well put together machine against a Tory government increasingly tired of power. There was only ever going to be one winner, and it was in neither's interest to do anything to piss the other one off.
 
Excellent article. I think 'we' are going to have to learn this lesson the hard way though, it's hard to see how Jeremy is going to go from the current situation.

If you read the whole thing (and the link to the actual report I posted a page or so ago), it's quite clear that many were long time Labour voters. A hell of a lot of seats that won't be won unless they're voting Labour.

Whilst I don't disagree with the analysis of how Labour has lost touch with large swathes of Northern and working class England, I've no idea what the author of the Medium piece (or Cruddas) would advocate as solutions.

So the public thought Labour wasn't 'austere' enough, wasn't sufficiently anti-immigration, wasn't sufficiently anti-Europe or anti-welfare. And the solution is? A Labour that promises to cut immigration to the tens of thousands? A Labour that promises to attack the welfare bill (without attacking pensions/working tax credits/child benefit, because the voters don't want that, even though they make up the majority of the welfare budget)? A Labour that opposes EU membership even though it is areas that are most in favour of Leaving that will be hit hardest financially by actually doing so? A Labour that promises to achieve a spending surplus by cutting public investment?

The problem the Left has in the UK is that its largest "left-wing" party has been a broad coalition between the self-interest of the working classes, socialists, and liberal social-democrats. And the first of these three groups is the party's true foundation (one need look no further than the name). But this is not, and has never been, an ardently left-wing social group. It is a group fighting for the self-interest of working people. This has often coincided with leftist policies and beliefs, but the two are not identical.

Over the last 20 years Labour has let itself drift out of touch with working people. New Labour must bear a huge amount of the blame for this.

Since the 2008 crash the working classes have felt the draw of right wing populism. Anti-immigration. Anti-welfare.

And this is the crux of the problem. A social group of people who were never traditionally left-wing have become intoxicated with right-wing populism. Labour, under New Labour, allowed itself to drift out of touch with these voters; they no longer see Labour as a party that speaks for them. Now, when Labour tries to speak to these voters they are not listening. It cannot convince them of the merits of immigration. It cannot persuade them to remain in the EU.

I honestly do not know what the solution is. I don't think there is one. Even if Labour had fought the last election on a manifesto that was very strongly anti-immigration/anti-welfare I'm note sure these voters would have believed it. I suspect it would just have been seen as another duplicitous strategy from a political elite.

And finally this line irritated me:

"Simply repeating that freedom of movement is “generally good thing” and “migration is a plus to our economy”, is patronising and paternalistic towards socially conservative voters."

OK. Really useful contribution. Simply repeating "Immigration is a valid concern" is unctuous and slavish towards socially conservative voters. Lets just ignore the facts, I guess. Tell people what they want to hear.
 
Ultimately though, feck immigration. If you explain that you're not going to sack their kids' teachers, if you explain that you're going to ensure the NHS isn't driven into the ground, if you promise to up the minimum wage, the "self-interested working class" will probably remember that they hate the Tories not immigrants. And if they can get in then hopefully they can smash up Murdoch and Harmsworth and reestablish some sanity in the press.
 
Whilst I don't disagree with the analysis of how Labour has lost touch with large swathes of Northern and working class England, I've no idea what the author of the Medium piece (or Cruddas) would advocate as solutions.

So the public thought Labour wasn't 'austere' enough, wasn't sufficiently anti-immigration, wasn't sufficiently anti-Europe or anti-welfare. And the solution is? A Labour that promises to cut immigration to the tens of thousands? A Labour that promises to attack the welfare bill (without attacking pensions/working tax credits/child benefit, because the voters don't want that, even though they make up the majority of the welfare budget)? A Labour that opposes EU membership even though it is areas that are most in favour of Leaving that will be hit hardest financially by actually doing so? A Labour that promises to achieve a spending surplus by cutting public investment?

The problem the Left has in the UK is that its largest "left-wing" party has been a broad coalition between the self-interest of the working classes, socialists, and liberal social-democrats. And the first of these three groups is the party's true foundation (one need look no further than the name). But this is not, and has never been, an ardently left-wing social group. It is a group fighting for the self-interest of working people. This has often coincided with leftist policies and beliefs, but the two are not identical.

Over the last 20 years Labour has let itself drift out of touch with working people. New Labour must bear a huge amount of the blame for this.

Since the 2008 crash the working classes have felt the draw of right wing populism. Anti-immigration. Anti-welfare.

And this is the crux of the problem. A social group of people who were never traditionally left-wing have become intoxicated with right-wing populism. Labour, under New Labour, allowed itself to drift out of touch with these voters; they no longer see Labour as a party that speaks for them. Now, when Labour tries to speak to these voters they are not listening. It cannot convince them of the merits of immigration. It cannot persuade them to remain in the EU.

I honestly do not know what the solution is. I don't think there is one. Even if Labour had fought the last election on a manifesto that was very strongly anti-immigration/anti-welfare I'm note sure these voters would have believed it. I suspect it would just have been seen as another duplicitous strategy from a political elite.

And finally this line irritated me:

"Simply repeating that freedom of movement is “generally good thing” and “migration is a plus to our economy”, is patronising and paternalistic towards socially conservative voters."

OK. Really useful contribution. Simply repeating "Immigration is a valid concern" is unctuous and slavish towards socially conservative voters. Lets just ignore the facts, I guess. Tell people what they want to hear.
A good post, and essentially the crux of the bind Labour now finds itself in. I don't have any good answers myself, I've tried many times but it's a possibly intractable problem. Not sure if you've read the whole Cruddas report but it also makes clear that this is also problematic for Labour in the south where it needs to regain support - they're about as toxic to voters there as Tories are to northern voters. The huge danger is, as has been discussed a fair few times of late, that if Labour don't make serious steps towards redressing the issues with this block of voters (and as you say, that requires far more than just saying "it's a valid concern" and moving on), UKIP and the populist right in general will make further and further gains. Corbyn, from my perspective, does nothing but make it worse on every level.
 
A good post, and essentially the crux of the bind Labour now finds itself in. I don't have any good answers myself, I've tried many times but it's a possibly intractable problem. Not sure if you've read the whole Cruddas report but it also makes clear that this is also problematic for Labour in the south where it needs to regain support - they're about as toxic to voters there as Tories are to northern voters. The huge danger is, as has been discussed a fair few times of late, that if Labour don't make serious steps towards redressing the issues with this block of voters (and as you say, that requires far more than just saying "it's a valid concern" and moving on), UKIP and the populist right in general will make further and further gains. Corbyn, from my perspective, does nothing but make it worse on every level.

Not yet. I'll try to.

Yeah, I have a tendency of using 'North' where it would be more accurate to say non-metropolitan areas (where metropolitan = young, multi-cultural, graduate heavy cities like London, Manchester, Bristol, Brighton etc).

And yep. He is engaging the voters who are truly left-wing (myself included), and there are a significant number of those. But not enough to win an election. And Labour has never won an election by basing its appeal upon those people. The lack of leadership — in terms of attempts to tackle these electoral problems — is appalling. Whilst we don't have the answers I honestly think posters in this thread would make a better fist of it than him and his team (and probably have a cannier media strategy as well).

Finally, I'm also utterly bemused by the cult of personality around Corbyn. I voted for him on broad policy grounds, but a lot of his supporters seem wedded to him. (Momentum is built around him). I don't get it. He's not a hugely inspirational or charismatic figure.
 
And yep, I have a tendency of using 'North' where it would be more accurate to say non-metropolitan areas (where metropolitan = young, multi-cultural, graduate heavy cities like London, Manchester, Bristol, Brighton etc).
Which is what I meant @Shamwow - I wasn't calling you a trustafarian/ champagne socialist.
 
You could also argue that Murdoch backs winners (so that his papers capture the public mood), rather than his political agenda shaping every single leader of the country. The EU ref was clearly too close to call, and he got The Sun and The Times to back different sides.

No one gets it right every single fecking time like the Sun does purely through backing winners.
 
Which is what I meant @Shamwow - I wasn't calling you a trustafarian/ champagne socialist.

Okay I get that you weren't but we were talking about an article titled "How Middle Class Liberals Destroyed The Labour Party" which you said is excellent. The headline itself is factually incorrect. The whole thing is shit.
 
Today's edition of let's fabricate an anti-corbyn scandal from the Guardian.

Jeremy Corbyn's staff accused of being 'petty' as rebel MPs' aides are locked out

Read the article and it says much further down, Corbyn's team didn't revoke pasess they informed the house these aides no longer work for the party.. which they don't so the house revoked them. So the rebel MPs forget to manage their own staff and then get the Guardian to accuse Corbyn of pettiness :lol:
 
So Angela Eagle now runs to challenge Jez.

Jez is surely going to beat her by a wider margin than he won by last year.

Then...? The MPs fall in line? The party splits?
 
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Corbyn and his team have rightly been criticised for incompetence at times.

But less than a week after Chilcot is published the Labour "centrists" are intending to unite around an MP who voted for the Iraq war and against an investigation into it. Jesus Christ. Is the party simply full of idiots?