I think it's come to a point where there is nothing to lose, when you're already rock bottom you take whatever small wins you can.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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Better to deal with people who have their intentions out in the open.
Yeah pretty much how I feel about it.
I would have preferred a Harris victory based on how much disdain I have for Trump and Musk, but in all honesty if there's any satisfaction I can derive from last night, its watching the virtue signalling Dems get their comeuppance. The people of Palestine and Lebanon are fecked either way. At least the US' real heinous mask in the region has well and truly been unveiled and the world can see what they really stand for now.
The way I see it, both Harris and Trump pursue policies which blatantly endorse or call for the annihilation of Palestinians, Lebanese, or really anyone who doesn't wish to live, at best, as a slave to Israeli sadism. There's no functional difference between the two.
However, Trump is not an agent of the neoliberal ideology that would have ruled and directed Kamala Harris. He's also an idiot, and most of his supporters are as well. It's more likely that a Trump presidency undermines American power than a Harris presidency. Any erosion of American power is likely also an erosion of America's ability to exterminate poor people across the world.
Therefore, Trump > Harris. If I had the best interests of average Americans at heart I'd certainly say the opposite, but in my view the best thing that could ever happen for the world is an erosion of American/western dominance.
tl;dr - I enjoyed watching the neoliberal tears last night.
I have to say, I find it hard to disagree with all you've said there.
I preferred Harris namely out of concern for the decent folk who live there, many of whom post on this forum. But from a selfish perspective, the neolibs can indeed get fecked. Nothing but schadenfreude for the Dem establishment.
Yep. Hopefully accelerates the move to a multi polar world.
It's already a multi polar world to an extent IMO. Russia has some weight. China is a major power. India is increasingly being taken seriously as the next big fella around the block.
I agree, and I also worry for decent people in the States. My sister recently moved from Canada to Texas, and I fear more for her today than I did yesterday. Despite that I just can't get my mind away from the conclusion that the only way the horror propagated by the US across the world ends, is if the US is unable to propagate that horror.
It's probably worth noting that there really is no good choice, and no win, for any decent person when it comes to the US election yesterday. I don't like the thoughts I have to let my mind entertain today - it's a circumstance forced on us by watching the most barbaric display of cruelty in modern history every day for a year, endorsed almost without exception by the politicians we're talking about now. It's an impossible position to be put in.
One minor thing I am not looking forward to is Democrats going into this thread next year being all "omg, look at what Trump is doing" when the answer is: the same thing Biden was doing, with a more vicious rhetoric.
Yeah this will be insufferable. It'll also be from posters who were radio silent on this thread when Biden was green lighting kids being massacred over the last year.
At least they won't be rolling out Matt Miller's chuckle vision act of him pretending the US is a serious partner for peace in the region.
If trump was president this thread would have 10 times more posts.
something they announced multiple times and now they did. biden could never have seen this coming. well done, great legacy.
It was predictable because Israel always does something on Nov 5th US election years.
The responsibility is now on Europe and the rest of the world to finally speak to the horrors in a truthful way. With Biden and Harris out the way and the facade gone hopefully there'll be the recognition that the US isn't about to stop its support, and we can stop pretending that anyone is working tirelessly to prevent this Holocaust.
Trump likely makes things tougher, but the US assisted before and they will continue to do so. Everybody else's responsibilities haven't changed.
Trump likely makes things tougher, but the US assisted before and they will continue to do so. Everybody else's responsibilities haven't changed.
Great post, agreed.
This doesn’t make sense I have to say. It’s not better to deal with Hitler than the previous iterations of German antisemitism because one has their intentions out in the open.
As above though, seems as if the IDF has succeeded in the ethnic cleansing of northern Gaza. There was perhaps a minuscule chance of some kind of blowback with Harris. None with Trump.
What a disaster.
No chance, European leaders will be ensuring they say nothing that might piss of Trump. It'll be months of silence.
The previous iteration of German anti semitism lasted for decades if not centuries, Hitlers anti semitism lasted what, 12 years and then the Germans fell into lifelong shame.
In my continued quest to see if any Western press outlets will discuss Israel's actions in Gaza as a genocide the answer still remains no.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...parliament-condemns-israels-genocide-in-gaza/
Venezula adds itself to Turkey, Iran, and Saudi Arabia in the official state recognition of genocide in Israel.
https://www.vox.com/politics/378913/israel-gaza-genocide-icj
This is the only Western (I think it's Western?) outlet which has even framed the question in any proper manner. Well worth reading.
The Irish social democrats are to table a bill which asks the government to recognize that Genocide is occurring. Puts them in a spot. In a year or two no one will argue, I guarantee you, by about 90-10 (as per usual, there's always a tiny contingent of people who just will not recognize facts) that what is happening here, or has happened, by then, was/is genocide. It's about political convenience of declaration not whether the UN's own (the international gold standard) threshold for such a definition has been met (which it absolutely has: surpassed, even).
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41511455.html
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...parliament-condemns-israels-genocide-in-gaza/
Venezula adds itself to Turkey, Iran, and Saudi Arabia in the official state recognition of genocide in Israel.
https://www.vox.com/politics/378913/israel-gaza-genocide-icj
This is the only Western (I think it's Western?) outlet which has even framed the question in any proper manner. Well worth reading.
The Irish social democrats are to table a bill which asks the government to recognize that Genocide is occurring. Puts them in a spot. In a year or two no one will argue, I guarantee you, by about 90-10 (as per usual, there's always a tiny contingent of people who just will not recognize facts) that what is happening here, or has happened, by then, was/is genocide. It's about political convenience of declaration not whether the UN's own (the international gold standard) threshold for such a definition has been met (which it absolutely has: surpassed, even).
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41511455.html
I’m pretty sure if you asked Jews, they would have preferred the previous iteration. I can’t believe that is even up for debate.
The post with the photograph is by Hossam Shabat.
He is one of the six Al Jazeera Arabic correspondents that the Israeli army, in a post on X, described as “operatives” working for Hamas’s armed wing to promote the group’s “propaganda”.
Al Jazeera strongly rejects the claim.
Israel has killed 3 other Al Jazeera journalists in the last year.
Israel has also wounded the Al Jazeera bureau chief, Wael Dahdouh, in one of their attacks.
Earlier, Israel had killed Dahdouh's wife, son, daughter and grandson in an earlier attack, and killed his other son, another Al Jazeera journalist, in another attack.
According to the CPJ,
According to the RSF, Israel has killed at least 140 journalists and media workers in Gaza.
There are almost no experienced journalists north of Gaza City.
On Tuesday night, at about the same time that Donald Trump won the presidency, Brigadier General Itzik Cohen of the IDF released a statement.
Palestinians will not be allowed to return to homes in northern Gaza.
Less than a month ago, the UN estimated that there were about 400,000 civilians unable or unwilling to follow Israeli evacuation orders.
Brigadier General Itzik Cohen of the IDF said that "there were no more civilians left".
The General's Plan is reportedly an Israeli plan to give Palestinians in northern Gaza an ultimatum to leave, and then declaring the are a closed military zone.
Those who remain would be considered combatants and therefore legitimate targets.
Less than a month ago, the UN estimated that there were about 400,000 civilians unable or unwilling to follow Israeli evacuation orders.
I've been looking at that photograph for a while.
There are blindfolded men on their knees, hunched over in what looks like a small dirty storage room with dusty broken walls.
The blindfolds are made of what looks like satin ribbon band in some cases, or simple cotton cloth in others.
Most of the blindfolds are black in color, but not all of them. I count five in light gold, I count two in white.
All but one of the men are in white surgical jumpsuits. One is seemingly naked. There are comments on the post calling them them body bags, but I don't think they are body bags.
Body bags are not transclucent white uniforms with arms and legs and a hood.
I think all but one of the men are in white surgical jumpsuits.
I count about forty two men in that photograph, I could be wrong.
There are large numbers scribbled with what looks like a black marker on the white jumpsuits.
Not all the numbers are of the same font size. 37, 62, 60, 61 - all written by hand - are in smaller size.
But 83 is extra large, and in bold. As if 83 were written by a black paint brush.
Hossam Shabat, the journalist who posted that photograph has also left a comment on the post.
"Israeli occupation forces kidnapped men from north Gaza, blindfolded them, numbered them, executed many, and kidnapped the rest to unknown locations."
I wonder which ones of the jumpsuits were executed, and which ones were kidnapped to unknown locations.
I wonder how many of the remaining men were executed at the unknown locations.
Anyways, it is a small dirty room full of at least forty two blindfolded men in white jumpsuits with numbers on them, hunched over on their knees. I think some were executed there, some taken away.
I don't know if 83 was executed or if he survived. Or 37. Or 62.
I don't know if the photograph is real.
I work with generative models, and till a year or two ago, I would be confident this photograph is not artificially generated.
Diffusion models have traditionally struggled with hallucination when generating images of multiple human beings in a frame.
They would have weirdly morphed limbs, extra fingers or hands or ears.
But recently, generative models have scaled in data and compute during training, and their adversarial training methods have enhanced shape and pose markers. It is difficult to be factually certain.
I also don't know if the photograph is from Gaza.
There are comments on the post asking for proof.
Possible proofs are cross-verified sources from other reporters. More photographs or statements from reliable sources.
According to the RSF, Israel has killed at least 140 journalists and media workers in Gaza.
There are almost no experienced journalists north of Gaza City.
Brigadier General Itzik Cohen of the IDF said that "there were no more civilians left".
Those who remain would be considered combatants and therefore legitimate targets.
There are comments on the post asking for proof.
Here are some of the comments:
"Playback in kind. Enjoy."
"Send all complaints to hamas"
"If only that were true. They're taking up too much prison space"
"Who are these men? Are they Hamas ? Also how do you know they were executed?"
"Can you link to the relevant news story?"
"PROOF? LINKS?"
"Proof, give us proof to believe you.Without proof, your opinion is useless..."
"Worst reporter ever. Congrats"
"This so-called journalist is nothing more than a Hamas cheerleader. All he’s trying to do is spin the story, but he doesn’t have a clue who these people are because the IDF wouldn’t let these Hamas jokers near them. Kidnapped? Oh sure, they’re all doctors, pregnant nurses."
"As a terrorist man، you should stick with your gang's policy and not talk like a pussy cat."
Most of the men in the photograph are on their knees, hunched over, like I said.
But there is one man to the right of the picture - he has red hair. He is not hunched over.
There is also a silver haired man to his right in the row before him, who is not hunched over. Number 37 seems to be sitting upright, too.
But the red haired man stands out because there is space around him, and because you can see more of his face.
"Israeli occupation forces kidnapped men from north Gaza, blindfolded them, numbered them, executed many, and kidnapped the rest to unknown locations."
The red haired man is not hunched over.
I've been looking at that photograph for a while.
European leaders will be ensuring to say nothing because they are on board also, not because they are against but in fear.
Delighted these scumbags got pasted by Ajax.
Mind you its disgraceful them or any other Israeli team is still allowed to compete in European tournaments.
in lighter news
same vibes as "the court has made its decision, now let it enforce it" - they know france can't do a thing!
same vibes as "the court has made its decision, now let it enforce it" - they know france can't do a thing!
Long post, basically, they torture someone and make sure others hear it before they interrogate them
translated from:
I saw videos on WhatsApp. Maccabi fans were trying to remove a Palestinian flag flying from someone's window and were said to be chanting anti-Arab slogans. They then got chased, beaten up and thrown in the river.
Perfectly demonstrating the media issue. The Israeli government go hard on their accusations and the media absent a counter point quickly take a one sided view.
The Maccabi fans started it. The video of the guy trying to remove the flag shows him up there for a good while. It wasn't like a group of fans were walking through the city and one of them jokingly grabbed a flag. It was attached so well that he was hanging off it with his full body weight trying to wrench it off. All the while, dozens of fellow fans were chanting, cheering and egging him on.
More importantly there's video of groups signing pro-genocide chants. Those people deserve what they got, unfortunately I'm sure as per normal with football violence innocents got caught up in it all. Hopefully the police deal with all of them.
Israeli government are great at their media handling though, they know the media report absolutely anything they say. This whole sending military planes to rescue the fans was nothing more than sensationalist content.
They should've been banned from European and international football a year ago. That was also bound to happen after what they did in Greece earlier this year.
Very different framing by the media (and of course the Israelis themselves).
It is amazing though that they’re still allowed to compete in UEFA competitions.
It is amazing though that they’re still allowed to compete in UEFA competitions.