Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

The Corinthian said:
The audio that Israel presented sounds fabricated though, which is a pretty telling sign that someone isn't being transparent with the truth (for me anyways).
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Best not to use anything that the IDF or Gaza give you at this point if you’re actually wanting truthful output.
 
owlo said:
The actual strike itself doesn’t matter much. It’s 50ish civcas in a war that has produced thousands.

It matters insofar that it lit a powder keg on top of a volatile situation due to some terrible reporting and believing the Hamas and Gaza ecosystem. It was a sensational headline used to fuel rage and topple embassies as well as to sink diplomacy.

The frothing hatred spewed against Jews and the diplomatic repercussions of this absolutely matter. It’s what happens when media is more interested in point scoring than fact.
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50 civilians? It's 471 civilians that were killed. You play loose with the facts too much for my liking. A bit like Israel to be honest.

Gaza health ministry spokesman says Israeli ‘massacre’ at Gaza hospital killed 471
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The Corinthian said:
Well the Gazans said they have the warhead that proves it was Israel, although at the time of typing this they haven't presented it. Let's see what transpires.
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They’ve also said there’s 400+ dead and barred the site to international journalists.
The Corinthian said:
50 civilians? It's 471 civilians that were killed. You play loose with the facts too much for my liking. A bit like Israel to be honest.
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As I said, don’t trust anything coming out of the IDF or Gaza. It wasn’t 471 deaths.
 
owlo said:
Best not to use anything that the IDF or Gaza give you at this point if you’re actually wanting truthful output.
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It's Channel 4's analysis of the situation. The audio seems to be fabricated.
 
owlo said:
The actual strike itself doesn’t matter much. It’s 50ish civcas in a war that has produced thousands.

It matters insofar that it lit a powder keg on top of a volatile situation due to some terrible reporting and believing the Hamas and Gaza ecosystem. It was a sensational headline used to fuel rage and topple embassies as well as to sink diplomacy.

The frothing hatred spewed against Jews and the diplomatic repercussions of this absolutely matter. It’s what happens when media is more interested in point scoring than fact.
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They've got form for bombing hospitals, indeed bombing the exact same hospital in the week leading up to this atrocity. Why on earth would you believe they're above something like this, given all of the evidence to the contrary?
 
The Corinthian said:
It's Channel 4's analysis of the situation. The audio seems to be fabricated.
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Which is why you don’t use it for analysing. The source was the IDF.

Doesnt change the overwhelmingly probable fact that the strike on the hospital was a terrorist rocket breaking up, and it killed 50ish who were seeking shelter on the grassy patch 10 metres or so away.
 
Raven said:
They've got form for bombing hospitals, indeed bombing the exact same hospital in the week leading up to this atrocity. Why on earth would you believe they're above something like this, given all of the evidence to the contrary?
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Where can I read about the previous bombing?
 
owlo said:
They’ve also said there’s 400+ dead and barred the site to international journalists.
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Eh? Are you intentionally chatting bollocks? Most of the journalists there already work for international news organisations.

Reporting at Gaza City’s al-Shifa Hospital, BBC Arabic reporter Adnan Elbursh and his team discovered their own neighbors, relatives and friends among those injured and killed.
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Over the years, NPR has relied on Anas Baba to be its eyes and ears within Gaza. This past week was no exception.

“I was forced to leave my job … to go to my family in order to evacuate them,” he told NPR over a scratchy phone line last week, only to find that other neighborhoods were just as dangerous. “… Where am I going to hide them? Is there any safe place in Gaza?”
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owlo said:
Which is why you don’t use it for analysing. The source was the IDF.

Doesnt change the overwhelmingly probable fact that the strike on the hospital was a terrorist rocket breaking up, and it killed 50ish who were seeking shelter on the grassy patch 10 metres or so away.
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Did you post the source of 50 people before? I didn't see it skimming the thread too much if you did
 
owlo said:
The actual strike itself doesn’t matter much. It’s 50ish civcas in a war that has produced thousands.

It matters insofar that it lit a powder keg on top of a volatile situation due to some terrible reporting and believing the Hamas and Gaza ecosystem. It was a sensational headline used to fuel rage and topple embassies as well as to sink diplomacy.

The frothing hatred spewed against Jews and the diplomatic repercussions of this absolutely matter. It’s what happens when media is more interested in point scoring than fact.
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I think the several hundred dead matter more.
 
owlo said:
Which is why you don’t use it for analysing. The source was the IDF.

Doesnt change the overwhelmingly probable fact that the strike on the hospital was a terrorist rocket breaking up, and it killed 50ish who were seeking shelter on the grassy patch 10 metres or so away.
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The irony. You're literally basing that on what the IDF have presented you.
 
Raven said:
They've got form for bombing hospitals, indeed bombing the exact same hospital in the week leading up to this atrocity. Why on earth would you believe they're above something like this, given all of the evidence to the contrary?
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You want to check twitter or bellingcat for that. I’ve consistently said I’m not a damage analysis expert or whatever, so my words are worthless on it. That said there’s been some reliable sources posted, and anybody who has been bombed knows that’s not an impact crater consistent with it. All the evidence points towards what the expert I posted last night said ; fire damage from rope plant after a rocket breakup.
 
The Corinthian said:
The irony. You're literally basing that on what the IDF have presented you.
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No, I’m basing that on analysis of the situation from people who actually know what they are talking about and the crater posted by bellingcat.

The Corinthian said:
Based on what?
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The evidence on the ground from the damage the bomb did. Again, not my analysis but that of experts, and noted by bellingcat too.
 
I'm sorry if I've got this wrong @owlo But are you trying to say that demonstrators chanting anti semitic slogans is actually much worse than civilians being killed?
 
owlo said:
No, I’m basing that on analysis of the situation from people who actually know what they are talking about and the crater posted by bellingcat.



The evidence on the ground from the damage the bomb did. Again, not my analysis but that of experts, and noted by bellingcat too.
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Post your source at least.
 
owlo said:
They’ve also said there’s 400+ dead and barred the site to international journalists.


As I said, don’t trust anything coming out of the IDF or Gaza. It wasn’t 471 deaths.
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If there are no reliable sources how are you so certain that it wasn't 471 deaths? What's your source? How can the size of the crater tell you how many people died? One death is too many.
 
Superden said:
I'm sorry if I've got this wrong @owlo But are you trying to say that demonstrators chanting anti semitic slogans is actually much worse than civilians being killed?
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No. Though it’s a thorny nuanced point you’re not ready to process, so I wont attempt to explain it.

And the anti semitic slogans annd peaceful yet anti semitic aren’t the issue. They are rational responses
 
Also @owlo bellingcat arent saying any more than this..(which kind of undermines you regurgitating IDF info)

In a press conference Wednesday, Israel Defense Forces (IDF) spokesperson Daniel Hagari outlined their analysis of the blast and why they believe it came from inside Gaza. He also stated that “no craters can be identified” at the site.

An image supplied to media along with a press release by the Israel Defense Forces, Bellingcat has appended the location of a possible crater with a yellow square.
One of the images that Hagari held up during the press conference to support the claim that there were no craters at the site shows what appears to be a crater in a location corresponding with the Instagram video. The IDF did not immediately reply to a request for comment.
 
owlo said:
No. Though it’s a thorny nuanced point you’re not ready to process, so I wont attempt to explain it.

And the anti semitic slogans annd peaceful yet anti semitic aren’t the issue. They are rational responses
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Right, so you can't make your argument as we won't understand it. That's classic hasbara thinking.
 
owlo said:
The actual strike itself doesn’t matter much. It’s 50ish civcas in a war that has produced thousands.

It matters insofar that it lit a powder keg on top of a volatile situation due to some terrible reporting and believing the Hamas and Gaza ecosystem. It was a sensational headline used to fuel rage and topple embassies as well as to sink diplomacy.

The frothing hatred spewed against Jews and the diplomatic repercussions of this absolutely matter. It’s what happens when media is more interested in point scoring than fact.
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''50ish'' Way to place value on human lives.

'The frothing hatred against Jews' not that a 6 year old Palestinian kid was stabbed 26 times to death.

It was the terrible reporting claiming that babies were beheaded that fueled the Israeli response.

The circle of violence has to be broken and a diplomatic solution must be sought after
 
The Corinthian said:
Post your source at least.
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https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2023/10/18/identifying-possible-crater-from-gaza-hospital-blast/

They link to Marc Garlasco, a Military Advisor at PAX for Peace’s Protection of Civilians team, and a war crimes investigator. He says:

Pretty definitive. He also confirms it was a war crime from hamas/Islamic jihad and that it wasn’t an Israeli missile. https://twitter.com/marcgarlasco

And this is Justin Bronks opinion from before we had the crater or daytime images. He’s posted more since.
 


Again from the Nuseirat camp from the day before - Israelis struck it over 2 days.

Today's strike killed 30, many of them women and kids.

 
Superden said:
Right, so you can't make your argument as we won't understand it. That's classic hasbara thinking.
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What’s hasbara thinking? It’s simply the juvenile approach to discussing war combined with a content cannon of more and more gruesome stuff to feed a political view. “Here have information about beheaded babies or a hospital.have this information NOW. And don’t forget, the other side is evil and non rational, and this is the most important information”
 


IDF bombed 19 clinics & hospitals in the last 10 days. They target civilians all the time. They aren't "the good guys".

 
And israel has frequently bombed the Gaza refugee camps. The very families whose homes were stolen during the nakba and given to the settlers.
 


Of the "expert" opinions I've seen on twitter so far, this is the one I would place the most stock in. Primarily because he is the author of a previous report that found that Israel had violated international humanitarian law in drone strikes on civillians, so I don't believe there's any question of bias at play.

 
4bars said:
As surprised as Israel state lying
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Truth is a victim in this conflict. Both sides are capable of the unthinkable as well as exploiting our emotions.

Meanwhile, people die. And how each individual atrocity is painted carries the very real possibility of leading to more deaths.
 
moses said:
On national television, to reduce everyone to being in terrorist circles, yes I feel it was reductive, racist and quite outrageous given the scale of the audience.
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But you are bound to say that Moses. Being Irish and therefore by definition either a terrorist or at the very least you have an intimate knowledge of paramilitary planning and future attacks.
 
owlo said:
It’s figured out to a large degree of confidence. Certainty no, but as of this morning it was pretty much mystery solved. Not sure why anybody still thinks it was an air strike.
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I think it looks far more likely than not that it was a misfiring Islamic Jihad missile, but given that on the ground forensic examination isn't possible, I think that it is almost impossible to be as certain as you are saying.
 
Hospital explosion explanation
I don't know why I'm so caught up with this specific thing. Israel have now made countless airstrikes, blown up countless families and children, destroyed thousands of homes, forced over a million to flee and denied the whole Gazan population basic supplies for going on a fortnight. Nontheless for some reason I feel obliged to reassert just why the evidence this was a malfunctioning rocket is so compelling to me.

1. Least compelling. Here's video footage from Netiv Haasara. One of the rocket seems to veer to the left. You can see the divergence best around 7 seconds. All other rockets proceed in a fairly straight line. A short time later an explosion takes place on the other side of a hillock. Unfortunately there is no clock on this footage:


2. Here's a fixed camera from Netivot. Again this shows what very much looks like the same barrage of rockets as (1) emanating from the Gaza Strip, one of which we witness exploding on the ground (at 18.59):


3. That explosion looks very much like another angle of the explosion that occurred in the Al Jazeera clip at the same time (again, at 18.59). This time we see the rocket malfunction, change direction and fall apart. The explosion at the hospital appears to take place some moments later right below its last position:


4. That explosion looks very much like the first angle that came to light:


Taken all together I feel these clips tell quite the compelling story. We see a bunch of missiles being fired around the time of the explosion. We potentially see a missile diverge from the pack. We certainly see a missile malfunction and fall apart in mid air. We then see an explosion on the ground below it moments later. I find it bizarre for the channel 4 reporter to maintain that there is no evidence to suggest a link between a missile that clearly malfunctioned, changed direction and fell apart and the explosion that occurred right below it seconds later. It's just inexplicable that someone could say that with a straight face.

Then, the next day instead of the expected destroyed hospital and rubble we are shown what is actually a fairly localised blast area with huge fire damage but little in the way of actual destruction.

Here's 3 Osint evaluations of that damage. These accounts are often cited in broadsheets so I guess they're at least somewhat legit. There are many more accounts saying the same thing:


https://rusi.org/people/bronk


Thread:

https://www.aspi.org.au/bio/nathan-ruser



No idea, dude has a substack and is cited by broadsheets


All in all we see a very coherent picture. From the night before we witness rockets being fired from Gaza around the time of the explosion. We witness a missile malfunctioning and disintegrating at precisely the moment and in precisely the vicinity that the hospital was struck. We witness the explosion and huge fireball. The next day we have pictures straight from the site. Cited experts all seem to claim that the scene they're witnessing would be unusual for regular Israeli munitions but somewhat in keeping with a malfunctioning rocket igniting its unused propellant. This fits in very neatly with the story our eyes told us happened the night before.

It's not conclusive, but (to me at least) it is very, very persuasive.
 
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4bars said:
As surprised as Israel state lying
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US lied pretty consistently with the same lie about civilian bombings in Afghanistan. Seems to be a common gameplan for powerful nations when they want to take something by force and have no qualms about the collateral of innocent lives
 
All this unfolds is that all of them are liars.

Including Western Government, UN, Israel, Hamas, Palestinian, BBC, Al Jazeera, there's nobody that we can uphold for their words anymore.

If they're not directly lying and fabricating total lies, they're weaponizing the lies, they are to at the very best weaponizing statement with careful wording which only aims is to defend the indefensible. Nothing is even beneath them.

There's a saying in my country that "Fitnah Lebih Kejam Dari Pembunuhan" which means "Slander is more cruel than murder"

Anyone who perpetrated such a misinformation should be traced and put into justice, there's so many times parties just lie their teeth out without any repercusions. One false tweet could lead to people getting killed in some parts of the world.
 
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