I don't really understand the point that you're trying to make to be honest - that Hezbollah don't pose a threat because the IDF prevents them from doing so?
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
- Thread starter esmufc07
- Start date
I don't really understand the point that you're trying to make to be honest - that Hezbollah don't pose a threat because the IDF prevents them from doing so?
I don’t understand what you are asking either to be fair. Wires have been crossed somewhere as this wasn’t the point I was making.
Turkey adds its voice to Saudi Arabia and declares Genocide:
I'm not going to view a terrorist organization with any nuance, no. People in Lebanon who want to defend their country can join the Lebanese military. If they chose Hezbollah - that's their problem.
Just like any Israeli who instead of joining the army chooses another method - like the violent settlers who attack Palestenians - can feck off as far as I am concerned.
Look, I'm not here to defend Israel or the IDF. I'm just saying not every Israeli soldier is an evil person who commits war crimes. If you can't accept even that, then whatever, I don't care.
Problem is that I feel that for many people, it's all or nothing.
Its a perfectly valid position given that all of this is a lived experience for you, just as it would be if someone in Gaza or Lebanon gave their views about Hamas, Hezbollah, or the Lebanese Army.
And I accept that, truthfully. What I don't agree with is putting the IDF holistically on a moral pedestal above the likes of Hezbollah.
I hold a strong dislike of the PMF in Iraq as well as all Iranian proxies, but I don't consider the US and its allies operating in the region as moral superiors.
I agree with you fwi.w. It isn't that Israelis are devils or anything, it's that this particular regime (and some past) has Israelis (in the armed forces) doing literally devilish things. It's a nuance.
Nice soldiers who only steal the underwear of women they killed or displaced, that's if they aren't busy attacking hospitals and sniping children in the head or the chest.
Err, last I checked the US + Coalition aren't going around committing sectarian atrocities as a nice relaxing vacation from fighting ISIS.
Sanctions that led to my family members almost starving to death, and an illegal war that led to a million dead. Yeah forgive me for not buying that. The 42000+ dead in Gaza too? That's also on them.
Fair enough. I'm just giving my view from Israel (a view that has barely existed here in recent months). I can feel for people in Gaza and Lebanon - and I do - but I can't speak for them.
Ah, you're talking about the non-localized activities of the US as opposed to comparing the Militia coalition actions in Iraq vs the current iteration of the US forces there. Fair enough.
I think a have a pretty moderate view, considering the fact that the IDF is essensially protecting my life and allows me to live my life almost normally in the past year. I can - and do - condemn some of the thing it does, but also see its virtues compared with terrorist groups.
Yep. I agree.
This regime is literally evil and the IDF has and is doing some terrible things. And they are doing it in my name, and inthe name of everyone in Israel. Does it make me a culprit?
Some of the soldiers who died are reserve soldiers, some in their thirties, fourties and even fifties, who have been called up three-four times in this past year, away from families, children, businesses, for months. They sacrificed a lot, and most of them didn't do as blood thirsty animals hell bent on killing everyone in Gaza or Lebanon. So yeah, I can appreciate what they did. Especially as it protects me.
People who can't understand it, well, that's fine.
Someone recently had raised the topic of "Hamas human shields" in respect to Israel destroying every hospital and school, and I'd argued back.
This is what using a human shield looks like:
(Would also note that the Indian Army did the same in Kashmir, typing up a suspected stone-pelter to the front of a jeep; the major in charge of that jeep got an award from the army chief)
And to reiterate: they aren't human shields if Israel will simply kill them, and, over 4 large-scale bombings of Gaza over the past 20 years, we know that's what Israel does. So I hope this persistent terminology (which is to be expected from US-Israeli leadership) should at least be challenged by those without a vested interest.
This is what using a human shield looks like:
(Would also note that the Indian Army did the same in Kashmir, typing up a suspected stone-pelter to the front of a jeep; the major in charge of that jeep got an award from the army chief)
And to reiterate: they aren't human shields if Israel will simply kill them, and, over 4 large-scale bombings of Gaza over the past 20 years, we know that's what Israel does. So I hope this persistent terminology (which is to be expected from US-Israeli leadership) should at least be challenged by those without a vested interest.
Do you not think that the actions of the govt and IDF, which have the support of overwhelming supermajorities of Jewish Israeli citizens, reflect the nature of the Israeli state project from its foundation itself? It is a settler-colony which has still not finished clearing the natives out of its claimed territory, and it hasn't yet extinguished their hopes of winning back their homes. And so violence is needed to keep the state intact and flourishing.
The original point was that people in the IDF were seen as just war criminals, but they are young guys whose lives are cut short, people who have family and loved ones who are torn apart by their deaths, etc.
That is true, but largely trivial. The majority of people have families and loved ones who will miss them when they are gone. People have the capacity to do evil without being predestined to evil. Members of armed groups often join for what they believe is a good cause, and often die young. Here is an article about Clint Lorance. He was convicted of war crimes and pardoned by Donald Trump. In the article you can see video and images of him reuniting with his family. I'm sure for them it was a joyful day.
That is true, but largely trivial. The majority of people have families and loved ones who will miss them when they are gone. People have the capacity to do evil without being predestined to evil. Members of armed groups often join for what they believe is a good cause, and often die young. Here is an article about Clint Lorance. He was convicted of war crimes and pardoned by Donald Trump. In the article you can see video and images of him reuniting with his family. I'm sure for them it was a joyful day.
The human shields angle has always been bizarre - Like, "Oh they put their military regional command in a civilian area, this gives us the right to bomb it."
feck me, almost all the CENTCOM command in Iraq were slap bang in the middle of Baghdad - the UK MoD is literally in whitehall and it's largest London garrison barracks is located 10m away from St James Park Tube Station 5 minutes walk from Buckingham Palace. Guess the houses and apartment in St James Park are now all viable military targets eh?
If Hamas were using human shields, so is quite literally every single military organization on earth.
feck me, almost all the CENTCOM command in Iraq were slap bang in the middle of Baghdad - the UK MoD is literally in whitehall and it's largest London garrison barracks is located 10m away from St James Park Tube Station 5 minutes walk from Buckingham Palace. Guess the houses and apartment in St James Park are now all viable military targets eh?
If Hamas were using human shields, so is quite literally every single military organization on earth.
Just realised that, since Starmer's election, there have been centre-left parties leading most of the key countries that support Israel diplomatically and with weapons - the US, UK, Canada, and Germany. (Also true of Australia).
The only supplier that has announced a ban on weapons sales is far-right Italy.
The only supplier that has announced a ban on weapons sales is far-right Italy.
Pot calling a kettle, 100 years after theur non recognized genocide
That is a question for you internally.
I am a foreigner who moved to the US for work. I pay taxes, and so, I pay for the bombs killing Palestinians and Lebanese. And yes, that makes me culpable. The moral action for me is to leave the US and find another job. For selfish reasons, I have not done that.
According to the standards of Israel, I am not just culpable, I should be killed:
> completely destroy their financial supporters
Funnily enough, while it's still in very early stages, I have started working on getting a foreign citizenship that will make it easier for me to get out of here one day... But that will still take years.
But I don't consider myself culpable in any way.
I wish you the best of luck.
Selfish of me to say that Israel could do with more level-headed citizens such as yourself, but of course you and your family's future and wellbeing take precedence.
Cheers mate.
Of course, I condemn it outright, This version of the Israeli state and almost all, if not all, in my lifetime, have advanced policies purposefully designed to ethnic cleanse (apartheid conditions to drive people from the West Bank being the most obvious and then the Gaza situation which is now an outright genocide). The difference is this: they, the majority of Israeli citizens, are just people (heavily indoctrinated). I.e., I understand the difference between an evil apparatus which turns even the "good" evil on contact and the people beyond that apparatus.
Israel ought to satisfy itself with post-67 borders and leave it at that and then manage its state affairs accordingly whether one or two states.
What is disgusting is that Chomsky's model designed (a predictive model) for East TImor's genocide (under Suharto) holds entirely with respect to the Western press and their complete inability, in the legacy newspapers, to cite this as genocide and/or ethnic cleansing. Any detractors of Chomsky's (and Herman's) famous work owe those scholars an immense apology.
Anyone seen the interview of Mehdi and Piers in full floating around anywhere? The most recent one on Zeteo
But then this is a general statement true of almost all people, right? Circumstances (state ideology or something else) is basically what moulds views. The end result of it is that vast (and increasing) majorities of Jewish Israelis do have those views, views I would call evil. Which in itself is not such an exceptional thing, a lot of groups hold evil views towards others, but Jewish Israelis do have the power to enact their views on their enemy race.
...
I;m hoping, maybe against hope, that this isn't true. But if it is, it's more dire than you'd expect.
Well i changed my views on the conflict after reading two pro-Israel people who used to post here, when i realised how representative their views are.
https://social-sciences.tau.ac.il/s...ver/social/2023/Findings-November-2023-EN.pdf
2% think the military is using too much firepower in Gaza. 58% want more.
Also -
fair point. a complete disgrace.
The gaps in opinion between Israeli Jews and Arabs in these type of poll results are also good evidence against the idea that Israelis simply don't know what's going on.
I find Netanyahu's office scandal mostly noise. An interesting bit is they sent those fake documents about the hostages to some German newspaper to publish. How many falsified documents and stories have the IOF and Netanyahu sent to the Western press only for them to oblige and publish without any question?
"Israel expects the UN to contribute to and cooperate in this effort"
There are so many mind bending aspects to the hypocrisy from UK and other Western media but this right here is just state sponsored terrorism.
I just can't comprehend how it's allowed to pass without comment or sanction. There's no 'its complicated' here it's just pure terrorism, not only ignored but supported.
That's not quite correct. Those documents were not fake. They were real. But they were portrayed by Netanyahu's people as if they belonged or were written by Sinwar. They were Hamas documents, but not his.