Laurencio
Full Member
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2017
- Messages
- 3,967
I will start of by saying, this is a great response and a great post. So thank you for that. I also largely agree with everything you are saying here, with a few exceptions.You can't "remove" Hamas from Gaza unless you kill everybody in the West Bank and Gaza. Israel has been regularly bombing Gaza to smithereens for decades.
Hamas is first and foremost a resistance movement born from the Israeli occupation, just like Hezbollah. It was until 10/7 financed by Qatar, with Israel's blessing which used it as an excuse to torpedo the Palestinian Authroity and any peace talk. We can discuss about its methods, some of which are thoroughly condemnable and constitute war crimes, but a "terrorist organization" is an oversimplified and quite convenient explanation to delegitimize the Palestinian side and justify anything Israel does.
Colonization and occupation tend to have this effect on people. They're generally not okay with their land being stolen, constantly treated like dirt and killed like dogs. You can kill all of Hamas leaders, decimate its forces, destroy its equipment without ever getting rid of it. It will always reappear in one form or another.
That's the mistake every single colonial power makes: they think that they can kill their way to victory. That's why they always win battles but end up losing the war in the long run. Resistance movements don't need to win, they just need to survive.
It's never been a war. Hamas has no tanks, no air force, no artillery, no navy. It's not even a country. There are no battles. It's a one-sided massacre carried out by the most powerful country in the region with the civilian population as the primary target. With the full support of the US and the West who would never let it happen if it was any other country.
It's a 75 years long struggle for independence against an occupier who denied Palestinians any right to self-determination and has been stealing their land for decades, wih the firm intention of getting rid of them one way or another. The illegal settlement policy has never stopped since Israel was founded in 1948. Last July, the Israeli Knesset overwhelmingly voted a resolution against a two state solution, officialising what everybody knew for decades.
You can't "remove" Hamas from Gaza unless you kill everybody in the West Bank and Gaza. Israel has been regularly bombing Gaza to smithereens for decades.
I agree - another "Hamas" will replace the current one, that is inevitable. The strategy of "trimming the grass" unsurprisingly failed miserably. Israel took their eye of the situation and wound up in a security situation that allowed Hamas to complete the October7th attacks. It was almost inevitable that something like that would happen - and Hamas probably went a little further than they had planned. This is also why I don't think Netanyahu just stops because Sinwar is dead, and as long as he can hold the threat of "Hamas" as a rallying-banner, I don't think the west gets involved to the point they should to help Gazans.
And Hamas has every interest to stop this massacre. It's main intent was to destroy the Abrahma Accords, bring Palestine on the map and get as many hostages as possible to exchange against the Palestinian ones detained without judgment (you should read about administrative detention) in Israeli prison. Netanyahu has been the one constantly sabotaging any cease-fire deal.
I mostly agree. Netanyahu is unquestionably the biggest obstacle to peace. There was a proposal on the table where Hamas leadership was exiled from Gaza, but that was - rather naturally - rejected as fantasy. Unfortunately, I think that is what has to happen for Netanyahu to stop. I don't see a situation where an emboldened Netanyahu stops without total victory in some shape or form. "Hamas" as an organization is probably done. It feels like it's just a question of how long does the war have to last for him to get what he wants at this point.
There can be no surrender because it would change absolutely nothing to Israel's colonization policy and handling of the Palestinians. On the contrary, it would only make it easier as the world would sigh in relief and Palestine would disappear from the center of attention once again, and Israel resume what it's been doing in the last 75 years with the complicty and support of the West.
I think this is the point where we mostly differ actually. Because I agree it wouldn't change Isreal's colonization policy, but it would give breathing room for political opportunities and dissenting voices. The US was very close in getting the Saudis involved in negotiations for Palestinian independence in 2023 - that project was basically torpedoed by the aftermath of October 7th, and will take a long time to rebuild. I think it was the best plan for peace we have seen in 20 years, but of course it would have brought the Saudis closer to Israel too - which the Iranians aren't too keen on. Before this conflict, the "Biden policy (not actually his, but w/e)" to Palestine was considered a possible pathway to a two-state solution. Now however, after October 7th his handling of the Middle East has been an unmitigated disaster.
In an effort to avoid igniting the region and being forced into a war with Iran he has given far too much support to Netanyahu in hopes that this would somehow make Netanyahu listen to calls for restraints. It was a strategy a lot of foreign policy experts and many of his own advisors were strongly against. I have no idea why he thought that would work - especially not in an election year with Trump breathing down his neck. He painted himself into a corner, and now he can't make any moves because Israel are basically threatening him with a war against Iran.
I get that surrender is "meaningless", I don't necessarily disagree in a larger strategic sense, but I think we are at a point where the needs of the population right now is more important. The number one priority right now should be to end the conflict so that Gaza can receive humanitarian aid. It won't "solve" anything, that isn't the point either, but when that happens a handful of political opportunities will open up - and some of them will be taken. A huge issue when dealing with extremism - in all forms - is that extremists tend to immanentize the eschaton. The idea that nothing matters other than the ultimate goal, it is a common theme in both jewish and islamic extremism. The idea that we are on a set path towards an inevitable result. Jurgensmeyer writes extensively about this in "Terror in the mind of God". The problem is, that it isn't true. Change and progress can happen, but it always next to impossible to see it while in the midst of conflict and unfortunately extremists tend to be born in conflict.
Last edited: