Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

You can't "remove" Hamas from Gaza unless you kill everybody in the West Bank and Gaza. Israel has been regularly bombing Gaza to smithereens for decades.

Hamas is first and foremost a resistance movement born from the Israeli occupation, just like Hezbollah. It was until 10/7 financed by Qatar, with Israel's blessing which used it as an excuse to torpedo the Palestinian Authroity and any peace talk. We can discuss about its methods, some of which are thoroughly condemnable and constitute war crimes, but a "terrorist organization" is an oversimplified and quite convenient explanation to delegitimize the Palestinian side and justify anything Israel does.

Colonization and occupation tend to have this effect on people. They're generally not okay with their land being stolen, constantly treated like dirt and killed like dogs. You can kill all of Hamas leaders, decimate its forces, destroy its equipment without ever getting rid of it. It will always reappear in one form or another.

That's the mistake every single colonial power makes: they think that they can kill their way to victory. That's why they always win battles but end up losing the war in the long run. Resistance movements don't need to win, they just need to survive.

It's never been a war. Hamas has no tanks, no air force, no artillery, no navy. It's not even a country. There are no battles. It's a one-sided massacre carried out by the most powerful country in the region with the civilian population as the primary target. With the full support of the US and the West who would never let it happen if it was any other country.

It's a 75 years long struggle for independence against an occupier who denied Palestinians any right to self-determination and has been stealing their land for decades, wih the firm intention of getting rid of them one way or another. The illegal settlement policy has never stopped since Israel was founded in 1948. Last July, the Israeli Knesset overwhelmingly voted a resolution against a two state solution, officialising what everybody knew for decades.
I will start of by saying, this is a great response and a great post. So thank you for that. I also largely agree with everything you are saying here, with a few exceptions.

You can't "remove" Hamas from Gaza unless you kill everybody in the West Bank and Gaza. Israel has been regularly bombing Gaza to smithereens for decades.

I agree - another "Hamas" will replace the current one, that is inevitable. The strategy of "trimming the grass" unsurprisingly failed miserably. Israel took their eye of the situation and wound up in a security situation that allowed Hamas to complete the October7th attacks. It was almost inevitable that something like that would happen - and Hamas probably went a little further than they had planned. This is also why I don't think Netanyahu just stops because Sinwar is dead, and as long as he can hold the threat of "Hamas" as a rallying-banner, I don't think the west gets involved to the point they should to help Gazans.

And Hamas has every interest to stop this massacre. It's main intent was to destroy the Abrahma Accords, bring Palestine on the map and get as many hostages as possible to exchange against the Palestinian ones detained without judgment (you should read about administrative detention) in Israeli prison. Netanyahu has been the one constantly sabotaging any cease-fire deal.

I mostly agree. Netanyahu is unquestionably the biggest obstacle to peace. There was a proposal on the table where Hamas leadership was exiled from Gaza, but that was - rather naturally - rejected as fantasy. Unfortunately, I think that is what has to happen for Netanyahu to stop. I don't see a situation where an emboldened Netanyahu stops without total victory in some shape or form. "Hamas" as an organization is probably done. It feels like it's just a question of how long does the war have to last for him to get what he wants at this point.

There can be no surrender because it would change absolutely nothing to Israel's colonization policy and handling of the Palestinians. On the contrary, it would only make it easier as the world would sigh in relief and Palestine would disappear from the center of attention once again, and Israel resume what it's been doing in the last 75 years with the complicty and support of the West.

I think this is the point where we mostly differ actually. Because I agree it wouldn't change Isreal's colonization policy, but it would give breathing room for political opportunities and dissenting voices. The US was very close in getting the Saudis involved in negotiations for Palestinian independence in 2023 - that project was basically torpedoed by the aftermath of October 7th, and will take a long time to rebuild. I think it was the best plan for peace we have seen in 20 years, but of course it would have brought the Saudis closer to Israel too - which the Iranians aren't too keen on. Before this conflict, the "Biden policy (not actually his, but w/e)" to Palestine was considered a possible pathway to a two-state solution. Now however, after October 7th his handling of the Middle East has been an unmitigated disaster.

In an effort to avoid igniting the region and being forced into a war with Iran he has given far too much support to Netanyahu in hopes that this would somehow make Netanyahu listen to calls for restraints. It was a strategy a lot of foreign policy experts and many of his own advisors were strongly against. I have no idea why he thought that would work - especially not in an election year with Trump breathing down his neck. He painted himself into a corner, and now he can't make any moves because Israel are basically threatening him with a war against Iran.

I get that surrender is "meaningless", I don't necessarily disagree in a larger strategic sense, but I think we are at a point where the needs of the population right now is more important. The number one priority right now should be to end the conflict so that Gaza can receive humanitarian aid. It won't "solve" anything, that isn't the point either, but when that happens a handful of political opportunities will open up - and some of them will be taken. A huge issue when dealing with extremism - in all forms - is that extremists tend to immanentize the eschaton. The idea that nothing matters other than the ultimate goal, it is a common theme in both jewish and islamic extremism. The idea that we are on a set path towards an inevitable result. Jurgensmeyer writes extensively about this in "Terror in the mind of God". The problem is, that it isn't true. Change and progress can happen, but it always next to impossible to see it while in the midst of conflict and unfortunately extremists tend to be born in conflict.
 
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Sending them to Egypt is a great plan because as history has shown, once a people are expelled from a land they always cut their ties and forget about the old country.
Of course, but with the annexation and ethnic cleansing of North Gaza, how are 1.8 million people going to live on half of a territory that already was the most densely populated in the word, without even taking into account the resources the Gazans will lose?

It's impossible.

If Israel has it its way and it pretty much looks like it, that's what will happen. What I've seen from Kamala Harris, let alone Trump, makes me strongly doubt that either of them would stand against it. The US will take note, tacitely acknowledge the fact, keep pumping billions and weapons, and the West will follow.
 
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Growing up they use to tell me ‘’ ‘’ is the devil and I did not believe it, guess I was wrong.

What a world we live in now, no remorse, no anger for the innocent folks in Palestine
 
This has to be the plan, given the destruction and death. I wouldn't put it past the US to throw billions at Egypt to get it to happen.
I’ve thought that since last December - the goal is ethnic cleansing. Most Israelis are descendants of Europeans and we all know how the modern, peaceful European borders were arrived at. The inconvenient “minority” (although 50% in this case) will be driven into Sinai and Jordan.
 
I will start of by saying, this is a great response and a great post. So thank you for that. I also largely agree with everything you are saying here, with a few exceptions.

Thank you.

I mostly agree. Netanyahu is unquestionably the biggest obstacle to peace. There was a proposal on the table where Hamas leadership was exiled from Gaza, but that was - rather naturally - rejected as fantasy. Unfortunately, I think that is what has to happen for Netanyahu to stop. I don't see a situation where an emboldened Netanyahu stops without total victory in some shape or form. "Hamas" as an organization is probably done. It feels like it's just a question of how long does the war have to last for him to get what he wants at this point.

Most of the Hamas political leadership is already exiled in Qatar.

He won't. He wants them all dead, and it's just an excuse anyway.

No total victory can be achieved, unless you consider ethnic cleansing and genocide as a total victory.

I think this is the point where we mostly differ actually. Because I agree it wouldn't change Isreal's colonization policy, but it would give breathing room for political opportunities and dissenting voices. The US was very close in getting the Saudis involved in negotiations for Palestinian independence in 2023 - that project was basically torpedoed by the aftermath of October 7th, and will take a long time to rebuild. I think it was the best plan for peace we have seen in 20 years, but of course it would have brought the Saudis closer to Israel too - which the Iranians aren't too keen on. Before this conflict, the "Biden policy (not actually his, but w/e)" to Palestine was considered a possible pathway to a two-state solution. Now however, after October 7th his handling of the Middle East has been an unmitigated disaster.

Where are those dissenting voices and which political opportunities are you talking about?

What plan are you referring to and where did you get that from?

In an effort to avoid igniting the region and being forced into a war with Iran he has given far too much support to Netanyahu in hopes that this would somehow make Netanyahu listen to calls for restraints. It was a strategy a lot of foreign policy experts and many of his own advisors were strongly against. I have no idea why he thought that would work - especially not in an election year with Trump breathing down his neck. He painted himself into a corner, and now he can't make any moves because Israel are basically threatening him with a war against Iran.

Biden is a racist and a lifelong zionist. His handling of the Middle-East comes as no surprise to anyone familiar with his ideology. All of his talks about cease-fire were just that, words. He never intended to set any red line to Netanyahu.

I get that surrender is "meaningless", I don't necessarily disagree in a larger strategic sense, but I think we are at a point where the needs of the population right now is more important. The number one priority right now should be to end the conflict so that Gaza can receive humanitarian aid. It won't "solve" anything, that isn't the point either, but when that happens a handful of political opportunities will open up - and some of them will be taken. A huge issue when dealing with extremism - in all forms - is that extremists tend to immanentize the eschaton. The idea that nothing matters other than the ultimate goal, it is a common theme in both jewish and islamic extremism. The idea that we are on a set path towards an inevitable result. Jurgensmeyer writes extensively about this in "Terror in the mind of God". The problem is, that it isn't true. Change and progress can happen, but it always next to impossible to see it while in the midst of conflict and unfortunately extremists tend to be born in conflict.

I don't know if you realize that the Palestinians truly are under existential threat. They're dealing with a supremacist ethno-state which final solution to the Palestinian question is to get rid of all of them. By any means necessary.

"The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria (the actual West Bank) will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan (River) there will only be Israeli sovereignty." (Art. 1 of the Likud Charter)

Religion plays its part but one must never lose sight from the fact that it's a struggle for independence above all else. And do you know how resistance in occupied territories and wars of independence unfold? You win or you disappear. There's no surrender, no in-between.

I understand where you're coming from and appreciate your thoughts, but they're not grounded in the reality of the situation.
 
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Tamil Tigers comparison doesn't really hold since Tamils in Lanka were always going to be a minority. In this case, Israel would have to massacre or drive away ~80% Palestinians in Gaza & West Bank to avoid them taking over as majority in few decades. The scale is on a different level.
 
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All communications and networks in the northern Gaza Strip have been cut off due to a brutal military operation that the occupation is conducting on the Jabalia camp from all directions. In the past two weeks, Israeli occupation forces have killed 450 people in northern Gaza—that’s the number we have been able to count. There are many more bodies lying in the streets and under the rubble; we haven't been able to reach them, and the actual number is likely hundreds more .
 
Tamil Tigers comparison doesn't really hold since Tamils in Lanka were always going to be a minority. In this case, Israel would have to massacre or drive away ~80% Palestinians in Gaza & West Bank to avoid them taking over as majority in few decades. The scale is on a different level.

According to wiki, they killed about 150-250k Tamils over 50 years, including between 50-150k in the last 6 months. There are still Tamils in Sri Lanka (with citizenship, unlike Palestinians) but their autonomy movement is over. The Palestinian numbers would be an issue if Israel was ever going to give them citizenship, but it won't, and most don't want it.

The point he made was in response to "you can't kill an idea" after Sinwar's killing, saying that basically if you kill enough people, you can kill the idea. Yes, the scale is different, but I think Israel has the time (decades more) and resources to end Palestinian identity as a living thing, and make them like Native Americans.
 
I don’t think anything has changed, really. My point still stands. The issue is that the very same principle isn’t extended to Palestinians, who sadly and for reasons both racist and due to political pressure, don’t seem to matter at all in our political landscape.
Painting the cruel murder of Jewish civilians as something without alternative is and always will be wrong. That doesn’t change that the same should count for Palestinians. So attacking schools or hospitals in Gaza is obviously just as wrong and horrible.
It is another great failure of our nation, that we once again are complicit in genocide. Same shit we did with the Armenians, really.

Well, the issue with the old post of yours I quoted is that you made it seem like a universal principle when it clearly isn't (and this post seems to agree).



This is what it looks like when Hamas are defeated - it gives Israelis the chance to run their bulldozers through living families.
 
According to wiki, they killed about 150-250k Tamils over 50 years, including between 50-150k in the last 6 months. There are still Tamils in Sri Lanka (with citizenship, unlike Palestinians) but their autonomy movement is over. The Palestinian numbers would be an issue if Israel was ever going to give them citizenship, but it won't, and most don't want it.

The point he made was in response to "you can't kill an idea" after Sinwar's killing, saying that basically if you kill enough people, you can kill the idea. Yes, the scale is different, but I think Israel has the time (decades more) and resources to end Palestinian identity as a living thing, and make them like Native Americans.

I wasn't aware of those numbers for Tamils in Lanka. Again we are talking about Israel killing vast majority of current Palestinians living there to achieve any parity with Native Americans. I believe if you count all the Arabs against Jews in Israel+Palestine it is something like 4 to 5 ratio. I do think they want to make Gaza/WB inhabitable for them and drive them out as refugees to other countries and achieve the same end result.


@crappycraperson this would be the end of palestinian as an identity as distinct from any other arab, and wouldn't need more than a few hundred thousand additional deaths

After Israel Kills Hamas Leader, D.C. Pushes to Hand Palestine to Saudi Arabia
Bent on a “mega-deal” security pact with Saudi Arabia, Congress and the Biden administration see their chance.

https://theintercept.com/2024/10/18/israel-hamas-yahya-sinwar-killed-congress/

Do you think even if this goes through, SA would resettling more Arabs in that region? It doesn't matter who is governing the piece of land as long as Palestines keep the movement alive.
 
I wasn't aware of those numbers for Tamils in Lanka. Again we are talking about Israel killing vast majority of current Palestinians living there to achieve any parity with Native Americans. I believe if you count all the Arabs against Jews in Israel+Palestine it is something like 4 to 5 ratio. I do think they want to make Gaza/WB inhabitable for them and drive them out as refugees to other countries and achieve the same end result.




Do you think even if this goes through, SA would resettling more Arabs in that region? It doesn't matter who is governing the piece of land as long as Palestines keep the movement alive.
As someone said on Twitter, the Saudis and Emiratis would be fleeing from there quicker than you can say "Sykes-Picot". An absolute non-starter, not because the Saudis or MBS wouldn't do it, but moreso that the Palestinians, and arguably the Arab street, would be in uproar.

The one thing these dynasties don't want is a reprise of the Arab Spring...
 
As someone said on Twitter, the Saudis and Emiratis would be fleeing from there quicker than you can say "Sykes-Picot". An absolute non-starter, not because the Saudis or MBS wouldn't do it, but moreso that the Palestinians, and arguably the Arab street, would be in uproar.

The one thing these dynasties don't want is a reprise of the Arab Spring...

Honestly I don't see where Palestinians will get the will to continue struggling after this. They have tried every avenue over 80 years and each one has been slammed shut by US-Israel. If the gulf states throw money at them, I'm sure some will take the deal (and it's impossible to blame them).
 




Last year around the same date there were countless debates here and elsewhere about whether Israel had bombed a single hospital. Now, all hospitals have been attacked, the remaining ones is under fire and a full refugee camp is getting exterminated with tens of thousands of people inside and no one cares.
 
I’m absolutely sickened by the west’s lack of condemnation for the shit Israel is doing. Completely double standards.

US and UK need to discipline their little brat of a child Israel and call them out. Absolutely abhorrent situation.
 
I’m absolutely sickened by the west’s lack of condemnation for the shit Israel is doing. Completely double standards.

US and UK need to discipline their little brat of a child Israel and call them out. Absolutely abhorrent situation.

For the 100th times. US is fully on board. Why they should discipline israel?
 
For the 100th times. US is fully on board. Why they should discipline israel?
I think this is bringing to the psyche of the Everyman that the US and its allies are fuelling this. This has gone on for years, but its vastly more apparent now to lay persons that US, UK and other western powers are complicit in the genocide and war crimes that the IDF and Israel are committing.

Silence from them is just indicative of their involvement and it’s quite frankly disgusting.

BBC barely reported that Gazan hospital fire where innocent civilians were set alight whilst attached to drips and quickly moved onto Liam fecking Payne who dominated the headlines for over 2 days before Sinwar was killed.

Of course Israel won’t be disciplined or face any action (even when they fecking fire tank rounds at UN peacekeepers). They’re the sweethearts of the western world. So hard done by in the past that they can get away, apparently, with any old shit they want to.

Absolutely sick of this shit.

Western leaders and the UN are weak as piss.
 
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Despite their movements being coordinated with the Israeli authorities by the CMWU and the Palestinian Water Authority, to ensure their safety, they were still targeted. 
 
The UK prime minister, Keir Starmer, spoke to Benjamin Netanyahu after reports of an attempted drone attack on the Israeli prime minister’s holiday home in Saturday.

According to a Downing Street spokesperson, Starmer told Netanyahu that he was alarmed to hear about what Netanyahu called an “assassination attempt” on his life.

The statement reads:

The Prime Minister spoke to the prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, this afternoon.

The prime minister said he was alarmed to hear about the drone launched towards Prime Minister Netanyahu’s home this morning.

They discussed the situation in the Middle East following the death of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar, who the prime minister said was a brutal terrorist and that the world is a better place without him.

He also discussed with Prime Minister Netanyahu the opportunity presented by Sinwar’s death to halt the fighting and get the hostages out. The prime minister [Starmer] also stressed the importance of getting much more aid into Gaza.

Finally, the leaders also discussed Lebanon and the importance of making progress on a political solution.

---

True leadership there. Feck's sake...
 
The UK prime minister, Keir Starmer, spoke to Benjamin Netanyahu after reports of an attempted drone attack on the Israeli prime minister’s holiday home in Saturday.

According to a Downing Street spokesperson, Starmer told Netanyahu that he was alarmed to hear about what Netanyahu called an “assassination attempt” on his life.

The statement reads:

The Prime Minister spoke to the prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, this afternoon.

The prime minister said he was alarmed to hear about the drone launched towards Prime Minister Netanyahu’s home this morning.

They discussed the situation in the Middle East following the death of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar, who the prime minister said was a brutal terrorist and that the world is a better place without him.

He also discussed with Prime Minister Netanyahu the opportunity presented by Sinwar’s death to halt the fighting and get the hostages out. The prime minister [Starmer] also stressed the importance of getting much more aid into Gaza.

Finally, the leaders also discussed Lebanon and the importance of making progress on a political solution.

---

True leadership there. Feck's sake...
Starmer may as well have asked him if we could come over, cook him a nice meal and give him a footrub, the spineless ghoul.
 
I don’t think anything has changed, really. My point still stands. The issue is that the very same principle isn’t extended to Palestinians, who sadly and for reasons both racist and due to political pressure, don’t seem to matter at all in our political landscape.
Painting the cruel murder of Jewish civilians as something without alternative is and always will be wrong. That doesn’t change that the same should count for Palestinians. So attacking schools or hospitals in Gaza is obviously just as wrong and horrible.
It is another great failure of our nation, that we once again are complicit in genocide. Same shit we did with the Armenians, really.

Well, that was the issue when the original post was made to. Me (and I think others criticising his being fired) were saying he was fired not for justifying civilian deaths, but justifying Israeli (or Jewish) civilian deaths. I think that is wrong, but you defended him being fired despite this double standard.
From your own response here and Baerbock's statement, it's apparent that for official Germany, Palestinians are not human enough to earn the category of "civilian".

To be crystal clear about what I mean, it is that since Baerbock doesn't have to resign for her statement, then his firing is pure racism and has nothing to do with "civilians".
 
A lot of stories on Palestinian twitter accounts that American soldiers are operating in the death camp in the north of Gaza.