Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
- Thread starter esmufc07
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the amount of speech repression done to serve israel - and no other ally, and not even the US itself - makes the whole "israel is a US client state" framing really laughable. that little fascist shithole is the most corrosive thing to the US 1st amendment.
What a sick, perverse country
"Western values".
As it has been said before here, they support and accept them because they feel culturally close with them.
More and more babies and children are dying of from starvation.
https://www.lemonde.fr/internationa...soutenable-famine-infantile_6296133_3210.html
https://www.lemonde.fr/internationa...soutenable-famine-infantile_6296133_3210.html
Quick Biden, have another "tough talk" with Netanyahu.
I've rarely hated people in my life and always thought it was a pointless waste of time and energy.
The whole Biden administration and Israel's current government are the ones for whom I gladly make an exception, as meaningless as it is.
So about that Rafah red line.
The "client state" that decides what US universities teach and what their students can say.
I got a telling off from a mod for calling the IDF/Israeli Government, modern day Nazi's, a few months ago...I'm owed an apology.
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What will it take for the US to stop backing the terrorist state?
When palestine will be completely elimnated and israel "compelted" and then they will organize remembrance days for the indigenous and their meanningless unceded land "thank yous" like in canada in 50 years
not religious, but not sure what word other than devils can be used to describe that country
Bruh.
10 seconds into the clip: Hmmmm
20 seconds into the clip: Grandparents kicked out...okay I can see her point of view and can understand
40-50 seconds into the clip: ....Yikes
1:20 into the clip: ....999? Yes I would like a recommendation for a mental asylum patient please
Imagine how indoctrinated those kids are going to turn out...christ this is grim.
"Spain is willing to take a couple of million".
So that would be the entire population of Gaza then. Great - thanks Spain!
Don't forget 'Russia said they would take a couple of thousand'
It's the lack of empathy and understanding that gets me as much as the ignorance and believing they are not only superior but also right in their actions.
The typical US attitude to the rest of the world, an attitude not shared by everyone for the US obviously, but definitely by many. It's an attitude that has been evident for decades despite people on here protesting or claiming otherwise.
It's ingrained in the upbringing of many, from having to declare allegiance to the flag each morning, IS flags outside of houses, the constant chanting of USA, USA at political events, politicians and citizens continuously declaring the US is the greatest and the most free country in the world. It's especially prevalent throughout the military or the opinion of the military by many US citizens. It's present everywhere, even sports where the NFL's Superbowl, Major League Baseball's Commisoners Cup and Ice Hockey Stanley Cup winners declare themselves World Champions.
I don't think many realise or care not only how offensive, but ridiculous all that seems to the rest of the world. The problem is, as we have seen time and time again, and as highlighted in the girl being interviewed in the clip you quoted, it's fecking dangerous.
It's definitely not something we are likely to see anytime soon, especially not in the current administration or from either one of the two that could replace it. Trump taking $100 Million from Miriam Adelson and her speech urging Trump to allow the West Bank to be annexed and for him to help ensure Palestine will never achieve its own statehood, tell you everything you need to know about where he stands on the issue. Harris so far has just backed up Bidens stance and the Dems refused to allow pro Palestinian speakers at their recent party conference so that tells you everything too.
My biggest concern is where will it stop? After Palestine, will they try the same in Lebanon or Syria? Or even Iran? As much as anyone wants to claim otherwise, at the root of all of this it's still a clear war between Christians and Jews and Muslims. That was only highlighted during the recent events in the UK and France too.
They don't consider them people worthy of the same rights as themselves. It's that simple, and it defines much of the Wests attitude to Palestine.
The Israeli regime launched its largest scale military invasion of the West Bank since 2002 last night.
The invasions are predominantly focused on areas around Jenin and Tulkarem.
But it is clear that this is a prelude to something much bigger- the Israeli FM stated that this is a "war for everything" and it would include the "temporary evacuation of Palestinian residents".
Operation Summer Camps....r-r-really?
We must deal with the threat just as we deal with the terrorist infrastructure in Gaza, including the temporary evacuation of Palestinian residents and whatever steps are required. This is a war for everything and we must win it.
When a US administration thinks that unconditional support to Israel will cost them an election.
I know that the counter-argument is that Biden has jeopardized the Democrats chances in November yet seemed still willing to go all the way in supporting Israel. But I'm not yet convinced that the Democrats are really alarmed about it. Seems like they still think they can get away with the current situation. Maybe they are wrong in their assessment or maybe I am wrong about the risk tolerance of the Biden administration and the Harris presidential campaign.
But by and large, my impression of US administrations and presidential candidates is that they are extremely horny on winning the next elections and would even adjust foreign policy if necessary.
There's two high-quality polls showing that this election would be safer with a less pro-Israel line. Harris won't take it at all, maybe because she's already doing well, or maybe because...(see the last point below)
I also don't think you're right overall though, for several reasons.
One, there will never be a big enough pro-Palestine voter bloc. As people - actual American voters - have discussed at length in other threads, domestic issues are more important than foreign genocides, and so they will continue to vote for the pro-genocide party, even if in their minds, they are opposed to that genocide. That cannot change, unless the median human being changes overnight.
Second, a lot of American voters - many Jews, evangelicals, and natsec types - would strongly dislike anything less than total servility to Israel, and have a ready-made party to defect to for that purpose.
Third, and most importantly, if Biden was still the nominee, and the polling looked as dire as it did before the switch, and the polls showed (like they did earlier too) that a less pro-Israel stance might bring rewards... do you see him doing even a little bit of a policy change? Some things, like national security, honour, and Israel, are above partisan politics.
The second reason (bolded) is kind of in line with my point though, no? If taking a less pro-Israel stance results in those groups flocking to the Republicans and the Dems calculate that that will outweigh other factors and thereby lose them an election, then they'll just continue the status quo. But if that pro-Israel crowd is outweighed by the pro-Palestinian vote, I do believe the Dems would take that into their calculations.
I'm not convinced about the first reason. If domestic issues are so much more important, then why care about the Jew/evangelical vote on foreign policy? Let me reframe it: yes, domestic issues will remain top priority but I think the momentum is shifting against the pro-Israeli voter bloc who have Israel/Palestine as a top issue and demand unconditional support. Time will tell.
As for the 3rd, I think Biden would put up a huge fight but eventually succumb to the Pelosi's within the Democratic Party who prefer winning in November over unconditional support to Israel. With the sidenote that they'd just angle to go back to the pre-October 7th status quo and not go further (like demanding Israel to withdraw from occupied territories).
The "pro-Palestinian" vote only exists if it threatens to withdraw or defect, and the vast majority of it, outside Arabs (a small group) isn't.
American Zionists won Democratic support for the UN partition plan and everything that followed by defecting and costing them a very important midterm (which permanently crippled unions after the Taft-Hartley Act, but won them the Holy Land). After understanding the pressure and consequences, the Truman admin changed not only its own stance, it also bribed and pressured other countries at the UN into accepting the plan.
For the 3rd, well, I think the past few weeks have shown it is a hundred times easier to coup the president than to change Israel policy! Pelosi wanted Biden out, and she supports a halt in arms shipments... Guess which happened!
For example, the Cuban vote in Florida is one that's taken into account in electoral calculus. When the pro-Palestinian vote achieves the same electoral leverage, I think that will influence the US' stance on Israel/Palestine.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/04/biden-miami-cubans-election-2020-433999
Like with American Zionists in the 40s, the Cuban vote vote matters because it's a floating vote, and it is geographically concentrated, and it works towards its primary goal without being swayed by other issues. Arabs don't match those characteristics (maybe they will match the 3rd this time?). Do you think "progressives" will vote against their Momala for genocide?
Progressives may or may not vote against their Momala. The point is that the presidential campaigns will analyze states, individual diasporas and so forth and take all that into account. Sometimes the calculation goes wrong, sometimes right. What does your post change about my point about the Cuban vote? You seem to acknowledge they have electoral influence.
The question was asked what does it take for the US to stop backing Israel. My guess is that the US' stance on Israel will change if there is a long-term continous threat to electoral chances by having a stance of unconditional support.
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Another example is the Polish-American vote and to what extent US presidential candidates seemed to focus more on winning that vote than genuine foreign policy calculations.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/1996/05/20/clinton-and-dole-and-the-polish-vote/
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That's a narrative worth being skeptical about. The people who were loudly proclaiming that the election would hinge on 'domestic issues' and 'the economy' were pretty badly wrong in their assessment of this election so far. You would know, since you were debating them on this (and were correct).
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In the long term, it's not easy for a party to support for a position that its voters disagree with, especially if that disagreement is natural. Israel is a very right-wing country whose "values" don't align with those that the Democratic party claims to hold. Support within the Democratic party is grandfathered in, but grandpas die.
Once again, this isn't the same: no major opposing votebase, looking for support from both parties, and something that appeals to the MIC.
Because Cubans are numerically concentrated, can be wooed by both parties (anti-Communism), and are united in their actions. Pro-Palestine people will never meet the 2nd criteria unless the groypers take over the GOP, and are currently not meeting the first and third.