Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Super Hans said:
Surprised there is barely any chat here about the Guardian article today. It is quite long but completely insane.
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It's absolutely not surprising for anyone who followed the conflict prior to 10/7.

You also noted how the US administration gave a helping hand (albeit for their own motives) and you can imagine how much pressure Israel and the US are putting on Karim Khan at the moment.

There's a reason why Israel never recognized the ICC and the ICJ. The amount of (well documented) crimes it commited in Gaza and the West Bank are enough to send any PM to prison for a few decades if not for life. This goes for a good number of ministers, IDF commanders, soldiers as well as illegal settlers.

It is a rogue state. Always was. It considers itself above the law, acts like a mafia and has practiced state terrorism for decades. All of it enabled, supported and covered by the US and the EU.
 
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Fergies Gum said:
I think its worth revisiting that missile strike on the hospital last year. After all that has happened since then, does anyone on here now actually believe that it was a misfired Hamas rocket?
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That one is genuinely contentious.

The farce about a few AK-47s placed found behind a scanner as proof of existence of a Khamas Command center beneath the hospital though...
 
Fergies Gum said:
I think its worth revisiting that missile strike on the hospital last year. After all that has happened since then, does anyone on here now actually believe that it was a misfired Hamas rocket?
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Berbatrick summarized it well a few pages ago:

berbatrick said:
When the 1st hospital attack happened, it led to weeks of discourse: "Palestinians can't shoot straight", death toll is actually much lower, accidentally hit fuel storage, etc. When they first raided a hospital, there was a lot of discourse: MRI machine armoury, tunnels underneath, etc. When they first mowed down people surrounding an aid truck, there was tons of dicsourse: Hamas did it, these were terrorists, etc.

Since then they have attacked almost every hospital using both air and ground forces, have massacred people lining up for aid multiple times, and there has been no discourse and no need for a cover story since it becomes an accepted part of this war.
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I assume Israel did it. But hey maybe it was a misfired Hamas rocket, who knows. What I do know is that 1) many insisted that it had to be an accident because Israel would never do something like that, and 2) Israel went and did something like that many times over.
 
Sigh someone here needs to do math. You take out the women and children killed, and you’re left with the exact number of “Hamas” operatives Israel claims to have killed
 
e.cantona said:
I mean...what else do you want to know about me? PM me, we'll have a lengthy conversation


I suspect you know literally feck all about much
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Think this is probably the first time I've ever interacted with you in any way so no more than I already know is more than sufficient.

Just find it funny that someone who is pretending to engage in good faith, won't watch a 3 minute video about the topic they're discussing.

This of course assumes you're engaging in good faith yourself.....
 
africanspur said:
Think this is probably the first time I've ever interacted with you in any way so no more than I already know is more than sufficient.

Just find it funny that someone who is pretending to engage in good faith, won't watch a 3 minute video about the topic they're discussing.

This of course assumes you're engaging in good faith yourself.....
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Yeah, you assume too much, unfortunately
 
Atheist said:
Does the Biden Administration have any leg to stand on when it preaches to other countries about human rights in various avenues when it continues to support these unrelenting attacks by Israel on civilians?
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It does not, although that has been the case with regard to the United States for decades anyways.
 
e.cantona said:
How so many people can be confused on this is beyond me. Hamas targets civilians of Israel. They want to kill civilians. Woman and children. That is their goal. They use their own population, women and children, as human shields. They want their own population to get killed, so it reflects badly on Israel. This is their strategy. The numbers Hamas have provided may be correct or even too low, but UN recently revised it's estimate of women and children killed by about half, based on Hamas not being a reliable source. It is impossible to know what is the correct numbers. People taking Hamas' word regarding this as fact, is ludicrous. One shows oneself to be willing to belive just about anything, on very little evidence.
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The irony would be hilarious if it weren't so utterly evil.
 
That_Bloke said:
There's a reason why Israel never recognized the ICC and the ICJ.
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Israel is by default of being member of the UN is signatory to the ICJ. So they recognise it.

Israel is not signatory to the ICC, but still the ICC warrants are binding to the countries signatory to it, meaning these countries are obliged to arrest Israelis if they land on their soil.
 
Adisa said:
The US have chosen to die on this hill.
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It is a sign of how much influence they have lost. They know that even if they were to follow through, Israel would not listen to them now. They are finding excuses to change their definitions so that they can still appear to have some level of control and for there to be some doubts as to whether they are ignored by or are ignoring Israel.

The last thing they want is to say "stop" and for Israel to go "Nah, thanks - cut your funding, we don't care". The region would explode. Republicans would take advantage of it and block everything. The president would appear weak domestically and internationally. The big question would be what Iran, Russia and China would do about it. Israel is playing with fire, and the US is too weak and fractured to do anything about it.
 
Beachryan said:
There are very serious, well-intentioned people in the Biden administration trying to improve the lives of Gazans. There are people that have lived in that part of the world since October 8th whose only role is to try and limit the suffering.
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Adisa said:
The US have chosen to die on this hill.
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This whole fiasco has just cemented that the West (with the US as the leader) aren't really the good guys of the world. A lot of people like to believe that we have some moral superiority over China and Russia, but when we actively support what's happening in Gaza, I don't really see how we can say that.
 
Giggsyking said:
Israel is by default of being member of the UN is signatory to the ICJ. So they recognise it.

Israel is not signatory to the ICC, but still the ICC warrants are binding to the countries signatory to it, meaning these countries are obliged to arrest Israelis if they land on their soil.
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Ah, I stand corrected.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Yes, you said that. You also said a bunch of other things, which I addressed. Do you need me to quote the things you said, have you forgot? You did say things about the estimates, you did say things about what you think the reasons for them are. It makes no sense to put up a performance.

You are not beating the troll allegations when you act like this. I know you probably don't care, because this is how you always act, but sometimes you write things that makes it seem like you want to come across as someone who is not a joke. It's extremely weird behaviour, I don't get why you don't choose one or the other.
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Yes, please quote what I said

africanspur said:
Think this is probably the first time I've ever interacted with you in any way so no more than I already know is more than sufficient.

Just find it funny that someone who is pretending to engage in good faith, won't watch a 3 minute video about the topic they're discussing.

This of course assumes you're engaging in good faith yourself.....
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Well, I'm not gonna. For obvious reasons. Tell me what it's about

Bebe said:
The irony would be hilarious if it weren't so utterly evil.
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Explain
 
Mike Smalling said:
This whole fiasco has just cemented that the West (with the US as the leader) aren't really the good guys of the world. A lot of people like to believe that we have some moral superiority over China and Russia, but when we actively support what's happening in Gaza, I don't really see how we can say that.
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They never were and never had it. Anyone believing this fairy tale either drank too much kool-aid or is badly informed.

The West, especially the US, has a long history of siding with the worst dictators, overthrowing democratically elected governments, and invading countries that don't play ball and more importantly, can't defend themselves. It still does it to this day. The international rules only apply when it suits them, and the West in many ways is just like, if not worse than China and Russia.

Gaza is just another example of its duplicity. It might've opened some eyes in western countries, but the rest of the world has always seen the West essentially for what it is, a two-faced bully.
 
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e.cantona said:
How so many people can be confused on this is beyond me. Hamas targets civilians of Israel. They want to kill civilians. Woman and children. That is their goal. They use their own population, women and children, as human shields. They want their own population to get killed, so it reflects badly on Israel. This is their strategy. The numbers Hamas have provided may be correct or even too low, but UN recently revised it's estimate of women and children killed by about half, based on Hamas not being a reliable source. It is impossible to know what is the correct numbers. People taking Hamas' word regarding this as fact, is ludicrous. One shows oneself to be willing to belive just about anything, on very little evidence.
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I just sat and watched an interview with a medical nurse that was in Gaza as a volunteer that just recently returned. I will take her word for what she has seen and experienced. Trust me she had some grim stories about what Israel are doing there and how they even targetted her and her colleagues. This is something that has been repeated by many aid workers and even the Secretery General of Doctors Without Borders who testified how he feared Israeli retaliation for speaking the truth in court.

Israel is supposed to be a democracy that abides by international law. Hamas are terrorists. Interestingly, I keep seeing this comparison being made between the two by the people defending this genocide conducted by Israel. And you are right, Israel can only be compared to a terrorist organisation, because they are terrorists themselves. Israel, like Hamas intentionally target civilians and organisations, only difference is that they have the weapons to do it on a mass scale and level cities doing it.

But as long as they have the US having their backs little will change but now the world atleast gets to see what monsters the Israeli truly are and the hypocrisy of the US and it's lap dogs.
 
Laurencio said:
It is a sign of how much influence they have lost. They know that even if they were to follow through, Israel would not listen to them now. They are finding excuses to change their definitions so that they can still appear to have some level of control and for there to be some doubts as to whether they are ignored by or are ignoring Israel.

The last thing they want is to say "stop" and for Israel to go "Nah, thanks - cut your funding, we don't care". The region would explode. Republicans would take advantage of it and block everything. The president would appear weak domestically and internationally. The big question would be what Iran, Russia and China would do about it. Israel is playing with fire, and the US is too weak and fractured to do anything about it.
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The US is not weak. They just dont give a feck about some middle easter Palestinian

You really think there's nothing the US cant do? Sanctions, embargo, blocking arms sale, to the very least a stern talking to Bibi to tone it down. Not even theatrics to at least pretend.

I dont know what the Israel has on the US politicians but they got the by their balls. I hope it's some damning pee video or worse, at this rate they're aiding genocide just for a few chump "campaign donation", that's how much the whole Palestinians worth. Just election fund
 
That_Bloke said:
They never were and never had it. Anyone believing this fairy tale either drank too much kool-aid or is badly informed.

The West, especially the US, has a long history of siding with the worst dictators, overthrowing democratically elected governments and invading countries, all of them being the ones that can't defend themselves. It still does it to this day. The international rules only apply when it suits them, and in many ways it as much as if not worse than China and Russia.

Gaza is just another example of its duplicity. It might've opened some eyes in the West, but the rest of the world has always seen the West essentially for what it is, a two-faced bully.
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I honestly think the majority of people in Western countries believe it. Most people aren't engaged enough to debate a topic like this online - broadly they don't care. They've grown up on Western media diets and also simply want to believe we are better. I think this might be the first big "Are we the baddies?" moment for the West in a long time. Possibly since it became publicly accepted that the Iraq war a complete scam.
 
Mike Smalling said:
I honestly think the majority of people in Western countries believe it. Most people aren't engaged enough to debate a topic like this online - broadly they don't care. They've grown up on Western media diets and also simply want to believe we are better. I think this might be the first big "Are we the baddies?" moment for the West in a long time. Possibly since it became publicly accepted that the Iraq war a complete scam.
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I think in europe most will rationalize it as "well, it's america, they're in charge. if we were in charge it would be different". Our migrant policy shows we probably would be no different.
 
maniak said:
I think in europe most will rationalize it as "well, it's america, they're in charge. if we were in charge it would be different". Our migrant policy shows we probably would be no different.
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At least European elected leaders are a lot more diverse in thought, when it comes to Israel/Palestine. We have both governments that basically take the US line and would probably enact the same policies, but we also do have politicians in power that are willing to stand up and speak out. That does provide a little bit of hope. One big difference between the US and Europe on this topic seems to be that Europe doesn't have anywhere near as much of the religious fundamentalism that leads to dogmatic support of Israel.
 
The U.S. has rarely been the good guy but there's such a thing as plausible deniability.

With some things, it's like your wife is looking through the laundry and she notices there's some red lipstick on the collar of one of your shirts. The lipstick doesn't look like any of the ones she owns. Suspicious.

This Israel/Gaza war is more like your wife is looking through the laundry and finds a tshirt with a big screenprint of you pounding her mother from behind and a caption that says "BEST NIGHT EVER."
 
Mike Smalling said:
At least European elected leaders are a lot more diverse in thought, when it comes to Israel/Palestine. We have both governments that basically take the US line and would probably enact the same policies, but we also do have politicians in power that are willing to stand up and speak out. That does provide a little bit of hope. One big difference between the US and Europe on this topic seems to be that Europe doesn't have anywhere near as much of the religious fundamentalism that leads to dogmatic support of Israel.
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That might change as Europe continues to drift towards right wing populism. You know things are taking a turn towards the worst when even in Portugal they are consistently growing.
 
Denis79 said:
I just sat and watched an interview with a medical nurse that was in Gaza as a volunteer that just recently returned. I will take her word for what she has seen and experienced. Trust me she had some grim stories about what Israel are doing there and how they even targetted her and her colleagues. This is something that has been repeated by many aid workers and even the Secretery General of Doctors Without Borders who testified how he feared Israeli retaliation for speaking the truth in court.

Israel is supposed to be a democracy that abides by international law. Hamas are terrorists. Interestingly, I keep seeing this comparison being made between the two by the people defending this genocide conducted by Israel. And you are right, Israel can only be compared to a terrorist organisation, because they are terrorists themselves. Israel, like Hamas intentionally target civilians and organisations, only difference is that they have the weapons to do it on a mass scale and level cities doing it.

But as long as they have the US having their backs little will change but now the world atleast gets to see what monsters the Israeli truly are and the hypocrisy of the US and it's lap dogs.
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It is horrible. Sufferings of other people. Stories told by people, children, etc, who have had horrible experiences, are heartbreaking. Will bring tears to your eyes. It is important to know what happens in a war. In Gaza and to the Palestinians. The cost of this war and the suffering it brings will be too much, as in all wars.

But, to judge who is in the “right”, intentions matter. What you do in the now will inform everyone watching on what you will likely do in the future. Hamas has shown, and told us, what their intentions are. They don’t care about life. Their own, their people, and least of all the Israelis. They want to kill as many Israelis as they can. They will do October 7, again, and again, and again, till there are no more Israel. This is their expressed intention, backed up by action and by using their own children as human shields.

Israel, for all its faults, do not seek to destroy the Palestinians. They do more than anyone before them in war, to spare the lives of noncombatants. Their intentions are clear. They seek to defend themselves against Hamas and other entities who try to kill them. If Hamas stopped, laid down their arms, there would be peace. If Israel did the same, there would be a bloodbath.

Horrible things will happen in a war. Hopefully those who have committed crimes will be held accountable in the end.
 
e.cantona said:
Israel, for all its faults, do not seek to destroy the Palestinians. They do more than anyone before them in war, to spare the lives of noncombatants. Their intentions are clear. They seek to defend themselves against Hamas and other entities who try to kill them. If Hamas stopped, laid down their arms, there would be peace. If Israel did the same, there would be a bloodbath.
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Absolute garbage. Just plain wrong all around.
 
Stop replying to this guy, he is the same in any thread related to Muslims.
 
e.cantona said:
Israel, for all its faults, do not seek to destroy the Palestinians. They do more than anyone before them in war, to spare the lives of noncombatants. Their intentions are clear. They seek to defend themselves against Hamas and other entities who try to kill them. If Hamas stopped, laid down their arms, there would be peace. If Israel did the same, there would be a bloodbath.
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Mate you can't truly believe that. I probably more than anyone on here supported their right to retaliate post October 7th but this has now gone well beyond any attempts to remove Hamas. They know they can't do that so they want to turn the whole place into a wasteland.
 
Mike Smalling said:
At least European elected leaders are a lot more diverse in thought, when it comes to Israel/Palestine. We have both governments that basically take the US line and would probably enact the same policies, but we also do have politicians in power that are willing to stand up and speak out. That does provide a little bit of hope. One big difference between the US and Europe on this topic seems to be that Europe doesn't have anywhere near as much of the religious fundamentalism that leads to dogmatic support of Israel.
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Europe is taking a hard turn to the far-right with the muslims being the main target.

They don't need religious fundamentalism, 9/11 and the terrorist attacks on european soil radically changed the game. Aside from guilt tripping and cultural affinities, Europe also views the support for Israel through the War on Terror lense. To make it worse, in many right-wing and far-right discourses, islamo-leftism has replaced what was once called judeo-bolchevism, as the root of all evil. European far-right parties with notorious anti-semites among them ostensibly display their support for Israel for very obvious reasons and they're welcomed.

I personally think that the most disastrous consequence of the Trump election in 2016 is that it worldwide broke the last shackles of the far-right and completely normalized (ultra-)nationalist, racist and extremist discourses. The seeds were already there of course, but the so-called champion of freedom and democracy electing that racist lunatic (and might do it again) basically anointed every far-right movement in the world and gave them a fair shot at the highest positions in a government.

In my opinion, a second Trump mandate will not only be the ruin of the US, but also all western democracies. I still utterly despise his alternative and do not believe the charade about Biden's hands being tied about Gaza, that ship has sailed long ago. Joe Biden is a true of believer of Zionism, stuck in a vision of the world that is completely obsolete, which will bring its own share of problems with the other major players if/when he's re-elected.
 
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