Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Pav1878 said:
To those denouncing Hamas and not Israel. Let me tell you this.

Hamas is a resistance movement. Their aim is to establish a Palestinian state.

Their methods are at times unacceptable, but what are their options realistically? Diplomacy? With Israel? The Israelis have time and again announced they will not negotiate on a Palestinian state.

if you were faced with the same conditions as the Palestinians in your own country and oppressed by an occupation force which implement a system of apartheid, I guarantee you an organisation akin to Hamas would arise from that dire situation.

To those questioning death tolls, what does it really matter if it is 35,000 civilian deaths or 34,564? They are still civilian deaths and they are still atrocities. They are still war crimes. So what is your point? That a lower number somehow makes it ok?

apologists for genocide need to look themselves in the mirror and ask where their support for Israel comes from.

Hint: racism and Islamophobia.
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If you can get your mind to a place where the actions of October 7th are justifiable, then you can get your mind to a place where the actions in response are. The only difference is which team you support, and how honest you are with your own prejudices.

Any chat that begins with 'listen sometimes Hamas goes a little too far but...' is not a position that you're going to advance any progress with. At least not with the parties that matter.
 
Beachryan said:
Not that there should be anyone on Earth expecting a Biden loss to improve this massacre, but here's some more evidence that you're wrong.
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Don’t know who you are talking about here as I don’t think I’ve ever argued Trump will make anything better.

Tbh if your takeaway from this picture is about voting and Biden then I’m not interested in a discussion.
 
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maniak said:
It's hard to imagine how it could be worse, tough.
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Than you're not thinking hard enough.

There are very serious, well-intentioned people in the Biden administration trying to improve the lives of Gazans. There are people that have lived in that part of the world since October 8th whose only role is to try and limit the suffering. They're not succeeding how we'd all hope, but they are there. The pressure in the US to stop supporting Israel is coming almost exclusively from the side that vote blue.

I absolutely promise you on day 1 of the upcoming Trump term, this issue will go away in America. There will be no more holdups of weapons, there will be no more aid attempts, there will be no more negotiations at a ceasefire. Trump doesn't believe in foreign activity, he will just withdraw the US entirely, and support Israel because he thinks Jews get him good returns with his investment funds. He'll also authorise force to stop any protests, and has suggested deporting any students (on visas) that take part.
 
Sweet Square said:
Don’t know who you are talking about here as I don’t think I’ve ever argued Trump will be make anything better.

Tbh if your takeaway from this picture is about voting and Biden then I’m not interested in a discussion.
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If you don't care about US politics and the impact on the situation, than why the tweet? Is Nikki Haley relevant in some other way?
 
Beachryan said:
It does seem like she is indeed in Israel. Obviously he means Haley, but yes. The picture looks real as far as I can tell.

Not that there should be anyone on Earth expecting a Biden loss to improve this massacre, but here's some more evidence that you're wrong.
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Just wait til Trump picks her as VP.
 
JPRouve said:
@Amir is there any truth to that?
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Well, yes, I zoomed in to check.

You didn't actually need me for that as she wrote it in English, I'm sure she doesn't know Hebrew...

(Unless if you were asking if she's in Israel and you already got an answer to that. She is).
 
A
Beachryan said:
Than you're not thinking hard enough.

There are very serious, well-intentioned people in the Biden administration trying to improve the lives of Gazans. There are people that have lived in that part of the world since October 8th whose only role is to try and limit the suffering. They're not succeeding how we'd all hope, but they are there. The pressure in the US to stop supporting Israel is coming almost exclusively from the side that vote blue.

I absolutely promise you on day 1 of the upcoming Trump term, this issue will go away in America. There will be no more holdups of weapons, there will be no more aid attempts, there will be no more negotiations at a ceasefire. Trump doesn't believe in foreign activity, he will just withdraw the US entirely, and support Israel because he thinks Jews get him good returns with his investment funds. He'll also authorise force to stop any protests, and has suggested deporting any students (on visas) that take part.
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At least if Trump gets in there won't be any more pretensions as to what the American position is in regards to their little pet project.
 
Beachryan said:
If you can get your mind to a place where the actions of October 7th are justifiable, then you can get your mind to a place where the actions in response are. The only difference is which team you support, and how honest you are with your own prejudices.

Any chat that begins with 'listen sometimes Hamas goes a little too far but...' is not a position that you're going to advance any progress with. At least not with the parties that matter.
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You misunderstand me. My mind is not in a place where October 7th is justified. Neither is it in a place where the atrocities committed since by Israel is justified.

I also feel there is a lot of focus on October 7th when there have been countless massacres of Palestinians up to October 7th. So I ask the question, is October 7th the catalyst of the current violence or isn76 years of oppression and massacres the catalyst for October 7th?

Get your mind in a place where you can ask such questions without your own prejudices
 
That_Bloke said:
Varoufakis, a known terrorist and Hamas supporter, has been banned from entering Germany which also barred him from engaging in any political activities in the country or from participating in similar exchanges on online platforms.
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This is BS. Known terrorist? Because he dares to question Israeli or US policy?

Whatever you think of Varoufakis, the sight of Nikki Haley scrawling Finish Them on a bomb about to be dropped on Rafah is so abhorrent and disgusting that you cannot possibly do anything other than condemn it.

the fact you are callling out Varoufakis for doing that means you agree with Haleys actions and with dropping bombs on displaced children living in in tents ?
 
Beachryan said:
If you don't care about US politics and the impact on the situation, than why the tweet? Is Nikki Haley relevant in some other way?
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I’m not interested in “debating” lesser of two evils shtick with someone who just makes stuff up. The tweet is a good example of how rotten the US system is that’s why I posted it.
 
Pav1878 said:
This is BS. Known terrorist? Because he dares to question Israeli or US policy?

Whatever you think of Varoufakis, the sight of Nikki Haley scrawling Finish Them on a bomb about to be dropped on Rafah is so abhorrent and disgusting that you cannot possibly do anything other than condemn it.

the fact you are callling out Varoufakis for doing that means you agree with Haleys actions and with dropping bombs on displaced children living in in tents ?
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That was sarcasm.
 
Beachryan said:
Thanks for this, I think it's quite good. I'm not 100% on board, but I do like the framing and the virtually irrefutable claims that this has massively diminished the prospect of peace for Israel in the future. That's the bit that is so obvious and I assume must just not be getting through to the Israelis in Israel. Netanyahu and these far right morons are jeapordising the future of the entire Israeli project, for their own selfish reasons.

I think the single most glaring issue at the moment is simply that no one is coming up with answers anymore, anywhere. There is no longer a solution on the horizon. It's easy to criticise the US, but the same people doing so are also expecting a future (Trump!?) administration to oversee whatever comes next. We need to arrive at a post-Netanyahu point, and somehow find leadership that is willing to move towards a two-state solution, at a time when it has been all but abandoned.

There just isn't another option. As much as the last (almost year!) has poisoned the views of many on Israel, it is not going anywhere. Even once all settlements have been removed, the 67 borders adhered to, I don't see that being 'good enough' for Hamas or whomever inherits that mantle.

Just have no idea anymore.
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10% of Israeli Jews live in settlements now. This is not a niche group, nor is a country removing 10% of its population, particularly when its ideologically motivated. They're also designed to encircle Palestinian communities and make any functioning state (even the semi fake ones that everyone thinks Palestine were idiots for not accepting) essentially impossible.

It also depends on what you mean by your criticism of the USA point. You've become so fixated on this Trump point, including just above, that you're missing the point that basically nobody is arguing that Trump would be better. Nobody thinks Trump is great. People do think the situation is already so unspeakably awful that they struggle to see how it can get much worse. You say there will be no more holdup of weapons, as if there has been any serious holdup of weapons now. You say there will be no more aid attempts, even as Israelis flagrantly block aid trucks, the US propaganda, sorry pier, sinks and Palestinians are killed by air drops, none of which anyway is enough to make a difference.

Most people criticising the usa don't want them overseeing anything or being the arbitrator but it's going to be anyway.

Haley signs the shells, while Biden provides them. Trump of course would also provide them but it's easy to pearl clutch at some of the optics of what someone like her is doing, while forgetting that the practical effects of what Biden is doing is the same. This is deeply deeply ideological for Biden and it's exactly why he carries on as he is even though as you say most of the pressure for change comes from the blue side.

I also don't see a practical solution when one group has such overwhelming power over the other and is backed by basically the only country that matters internationally. I think we probably place grossly varying levels of blame on that fact at Hamas' door though.
 
it seems the German foreign minister did a Biden. She invented having seen an imaginary video to justify the ongoing genocide. (Biden with the 40 babies decapitations hoax, that the WH walked back later)

 
Germans do seem to go very far when they go far. They also seem to follow their leaders wherever they take them. They did it before.

Idxomer said:
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There is no LEFT left in Israel, definitely when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. These parties barely make it to the parliament. The numbers speak for themselves. You have the Arab community and maybe some individuals here and there, but no real left wing exists anymore (to be clear, I’m talking about the conflict, not domestic issues or being tired of Bibi).
 
berbatrick said:
Oct 7 had 700 civilians and 400 military casulaties, for a military ratio of 36%. 36 children were killed, which is 3%.
The best case for Israel's war on Gaza has the ratio at 11k Hamas-affiliated figures (which includes govt people) in an (artificially low) total of 35k, a ratio of 31%. 14k children have been killed, which is 40%. More than 10 times, as a ratio, and 400 times, as absolute numbers, what Hamas killed.
If the latter "wants to kill civilians", specifically "children", what is the former? Don't bother answering. The numbers speak for themselves.
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So.. death toll vs death toll? Israel should have stoped at the exact same number, is that what you're saying? Can you even imagine Israel doing something similar as to what Hamas did? Hamas' goal was to kill civilians and cause as much shock and terror as possible. They even found handbooks on how to inflict the most horror, pain and suffering on the scum. Israel's goal is not to kill civilians. This is obvious.

I'm tired of this rubbish. Human shields is a term used to denote humans, valuable to the person shooting, through him they would not shoot. We know that Gazzans aren't valuable to Israel, and that even in its guidelines, the IDF accepts between 20:1 and 100:1 civilian casualty ratios for a ""targeted strike"". It is not a human shield, it is just whoever happens to be living nearby.
It would have been more interesting to say that the Israeli hostages captured by Hamas are human shields, and I would have believed it, but as we have seen, they have been killed in substantial numbers by Israel's bombing. And many more were killed by Israel on Oct 7th. Even Israeli Jews, who are regarded as people by the state of Israel, are not effective human shields, because the state of Israel places its military objectives above their lives.
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Not even the lowest scum do what Hamas do re human shields. Even ISIS didn't do it to the extent Hamas does. Hamas fires rockets from residental areas, schools, refugee camps, hospitals, wears civilian clothes, build their tunnel system under civilian buildings as well as using the same places to store weapons. Forces civilians to stay in areas were Israel has warned they will attack and bomb. If you want to kill us, you'll have to kill them as well..

This, on the other hand, is how you use a human shield - placing him in front of yourself, knowing your enemy won't fire on him.
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You do understand hiding behind civilians, in a hospital, is that. Human shield.


This is rubbish.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam/index.html
24k dead have been fully identified by Hamas' health ministry including their ID numbers (which Israel has access to), while at least 11k are not fully identified because the Health Ministry is now dysfunctional and cut off from large swathes of Gaza.
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I don't understand what is rubbish about it. 24k, of which 13k+/- are Hamas. And then 11k unidentified? It used to be 35-ish and 13ish.. They changed it becaus the information from Hamas was incorrect. I don't have the numbers and I'm not looking it up. Just help me find where the rubbish is. I'm sure I'm wrong somehow.
 
Beachryan said:
Than you're not thinking hard enough.

There are very serious, well-intentioned people in the Biden administration trying to improve the lives of Gazans. There are people that have lived in that part of the world since October 8th whose only role is to try and limit the suffering. They're not succeeding how we'd all hope, but they are there. The pressure in the US to stop supporting Israel is coming almost exclusively from the side that vote blue.

I absolutely promise you on day 1 of the upcoming Trump term, this issue will go away in America. There will be no more holdups of weapons, there will be no more aid attempts, there will be no more negotiations at a ceasefire. Trump doesn't believe in foreign activity, he will just withdraw the US entirely, and support Israel because he thinks Jews get him good returns with his investment funds. He'll also authorise force to stop any protests, and has suggested deporting any students (on visas) that take part.
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Everything you described is happening under biden, when it comes to gazans, so how would it exactly be worse?
 
e.cantona said:
How so many people can be confused on this is beyond me. Hamas targets civilians of Israel. They want to kill civilians. Woman and children.
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You are the only one confused… Israeli officials have told us countless times that their goal was and still is to starve and kill civilians and they’ve shown that as well.

 
Pintu said:
You are the only one confused… Israeli officials have told us countless times that their goal was and still is to starve and kill civilians and they’ve shown that as well.

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Sorry, I'm not watching that. What does it say and where
 
e.cantona said:
So.. death toll vs death toll? Israel should have stoped at the exact same number, is that what you're saying? Can you even imagine Israel doing something similar as to what Hamas did? Hamas' goal was to kill civilians and cause as much shock and terror as possible. They even found handbooks on how to inflict the most horror, pain and suffering on the scum. Israel's goal is not to kill civilians. This is obvious.


Not even the lowest scum do what Hamas do re human shields. Even ISIS didn't do it to the extent Hamas does. Hamas fires rockets from residental areas, schools, refugee camps, hospitals, wears civilian clothes, build their tunnel system under civilian buildings as well as using the same places to store weapons. Forces civilians to stay in areas were Israel has warned they will attack and bomb. If you want to kill us, you'll have to kill them as well..


You do understand hiding behind civilians, in a hospital, is that. Human shield.



I don't understand what is rubbish about it. 24k, of which 13k+/- are Hamas. And then 11k unidentified? It used to be 35-ish and 13ish.. They changed it becaus the information from Hamas was incorrect. I don't have the numbers and I'm not looking it up. Just help me find where the rubbish is. I'm sure I'm wrong somehow.
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I think your posts display a severe lack of reading comprehension at best. Bye.
 
Surprised there is barely any chat here about the Guardian article today. It is quite long but completely insane.
 
berbatrick said:
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They can't verify tanks in the middle of Rafah, despite there being countless footage and images showing so, but geriatric Joe can definitely verify seeing beheaded Israeli babies despite it proven to have not happened. Pointless trying to squeeze any bit of objectivity from the US, they are a complicit sponsor in all this, its as much their genocide as it is Israel's.
 
Super Hans said:
Surprised there is barely any chat here about the Guardian article today. It is quite long but completely insane.
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This war reminds me of the Trump era as president: what was news at 9 am becomes old at noon, and then completely forgotten 24 hours later… because there is always something new.

It’s hard to keep up… and we have been into this for nearly 8 months now!
 
Mike Smalling said:
Yeah, because Germany in particular are terrified of any criticism of Israel being heard. Did you read the speech he wasn’t allowed to give?
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I saw it on YouTube weeks ago.

A seditious and distinctively antisemitic apology of Hamas, worthy of a ban by German standards.
 
I think its worth revisiting that missile strike on the hospital last year. After all that has happened since then, does anyone on here now actually believe that it was a misfired Hamas rocket?
 
Fergies Gum said:
I think its worth revisiting that missile strike on the hospital last year. After all that has happened since then, does anyone on here now actually believe that it was a misfired Hamas rocket?
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That was the conclusion from many organizations, though the conclusion was not unanimous.
 
e.cantona said:
I said this.

I stand by every word in that. People in here trusting literal monsters, Hamas, is beyond me. They didn't trust the numbers given by one Hamas branch based on lack of id, so they changed it to a different Hamas branch. Why? Because there are no other sources.
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Yes, you said that. You also said a bunch of other things, which I addressed. Do you need me to quote the things you said, have you forgot? You did say things about the estimates, you did say things about what you think the reasons for them are. It makes no sense to put up a performance.

You are not beating the troll allegations when you act like this. I know you probably don't care, because this is how you always act, but sometimes you write things that makes it seem like you want to come across as someone who is not a joke. It's extremely weird behaviour, I don't get why you don't choose one or the other.
 
Pintu said:
You are the only one confused… Israeli officials have told us countless times that their goal was and still is to starve and kill civilians and they’ve shown that as well.

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How they use this kind of dehumanizing language while proclaiming themselves the most humane army in the world is mind-boggling. The irony is off the charts.
 
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